Okay, I've had a good read through of my newly arrived Pathfinder, and mostly I'm quite happy. It looks really interesting and for the first time in ages I might actually run a module instead of making my own up. But one thing is bothering me.
The complete and utter over-use of Shatter.
Every single spellcaster who can cast the spell has it memorized. Including the wizard, who could have a less annoying but more dangerous spell in its place. It's a small thing, but man - it seems like the entire point of all the spellcasters is to completely destroy any of the fighters weapons just out of spite.
I know it's easy to change, but man: that's way too mean and incredibly frustrating for players. Destroying a fighters weapon only makes him pissed off, it doesn't make the game more challenging. Add to this the fact that more or less almost all of the weapons are small and you have a real problem.
*sigh*
Great otherwise, but man, this is really bugging me.
Okay, I've had a good read through of my newly arrived Pathfinder, and mostly I'm quite happy. It looks really interesting and for the first time in ages I might actually run a module instead of making my own up. But one thing is bothering me.
The complete and utter over-use of Shatter.
Honestly - I understand exactly how you feel. When I first started DM'ing in first edition, I never used Poisons, or death spells, because I just couldn't stand save-or-immediate-death sort of things. I've gotten over that fortunately :)
As for Shatter - I still feel pretty cruel trying to shatter some +5, Keen, Wounding Falchion that will take an eon to replace. It's quite a powerful little spell.
But if there is any time to use it, the very first adventure is definitely it. Best chance of success, and the least real harm done. And if you shatter a few early, just an occasional attempt later will spark quite a bit of fear into the fighters...
Hmmm . . .on some levels Shatter is a great spell for wizards to have. It disarms damage-dealing types and it has an intimidation factor to it. I have no problem with the adventure being shatter happy, but then again this is based on my group not being overly concerned about losing weapons, items, and the like . . .I am sure some groups would be POed. Obviously, to each their own.
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Shatter, as well as Improved Sunder + Adamantite Weapons are less brutal at the lower levels of the game where the players are not expected to have a lot of magical gear. Just explain to the brawlers that yes, they should expect to occasionally loose a primary weapon and will want to pack a backup. I know my fighters always have a spare weapon or two hanging off the old belt, and Quickdraw's a table favorite for switching between ranged and melee - it's also good for recovering from shatter or Sunder.
Creative Director
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I may have messed this up in the tactics here and there in Burnt Offerings, but it's worth noting that shatter can't destroy magic items so it's not as harrowing as you might think. It's easy enough to replace non-magic stuff that gets blowed up, in any event.
As for why so many bad guys have the spell prepared in the adventure, it's partly because it's a domain spell granted by Lamashtu. The wizard more or less has it prepared to honor her boss's choice of religion, even though it's not necessarily her best choice. It's also a good way to impress and freak out goblins, who get a kick out of loud noises.
Over-use of Shatter ? That sure beats the general non-use of it I generally see.
Yes, it is rather harsh it would seem - until you realize that frankly, the levels of play it will most commonly see use at almost never revolve around big pricey items. By the time the wielders of +5 holy adamantine falchions of collision are worried about thier near-200k gp weapon, it probably will not be because of a shatter spell.
An advanced elite paragon rust monster maybe, but not a shatter spell.
(Given how NPCs rarely survive longer than 5 rounds in a typical encounter, and how low in spell level shatter is on thier spells roster, most are unlikely to waste thier standard action on targeting one characters' weapon.)
And as another replier has already addressed, this is just one more reason to pack a back-up weapon or two.
Shatter can also be used to destroy every potion, acid flask, and alchemist fire vial in an area. At low levels, those alchemical items are far more commonly tucked away in belt pouches.
Wooo! I just set the rogue on fire!
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Shatter can also be used to destroy every potion, acid flask, and alchemist fire vial in an area. At low levels, those alchemical items are far more commonly tucked away in belt pouches.
Wooo! I just set the rogue on fire!
First level warlocks can shatter at will, but remember the items being held by someone get to use the wielder's saving throw
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First level warlocks can shatter at will, but remember the items being held by someone get to use the wielder's saving throw
Warlocks can do everything at will; I'm surprised the designers didn't think (unlimited damage spells)/day wasn't too weak, and allow them to cast invocations in their sleep, as well.
Or after death.
After the corpse has been dismembered, cremated, and the ashes dissolved in acid.
"Phew, he's finally gone..."
"ELDRITCH BLAST!!!!1!1!1! F3AR MY L33T 5K1LL5!!!!!11!!!!"
First level warlocks can shatter at will, but remember the items being held by someone get to use the wielder's saving throwWarlocks can do everything at will; I'm surprised the designers didn't think (unlimited damage spells)/day wasn't too weak, and allow them to cast invocations in their sleep, as well.
Or after death.
After the corpse has been dismembered, cremated, and the ashes dissolved in acid.
"Phew, he's finally gone..."
"ELDRITCH BLAST!!!!1!1!1! F3AR MY L33T 5K1LL5!!!!!11!!!!"
Wow.. Thank you for this Snorter :) - Warlocks just rub me the wrong way.
Also, Thank you James! I'd read Shatter recently and hadn't noted the "non-magical" in the first paragraph that refers to the single object. The blast effect specifically mentions it, but the single target paragraph just says "a single object, regardless of composition"... glad I didn't destroy any epic swords with it...
Thanks for the replies (especially you, James). I did get that it was a domain spell, and with the cleric it makes a lot of sense. And deep down, I love the spell. Though after seeing my party, I'm having some serious reservations or concerns.
One guy spent a good two paragraphs on his background talking about his ancestral weapon and how it's been handed down from father to son for about 4 generations. He spent a lot of time writing it up as a Weapon of Legacy. It was really good. I highly dig it. I don't want to destroy it because that would be wrong. This guy has a 12 wisdom and is a plain-jane fighter, so his will save is going to be poor.
Our rogue is going for a total "mad grenadier" vibe. He's got ranks in Craft (Alchemy) [I house rule it so that anyone can use the skill, not just spellcasters] and is starting out with about 4-5 flasks of acid and fire on his person. I'm sure by the time they hit Weathertop they're he's going to be loaded down with them. It would almost be an instant kill. He's got a 12 wisdom and poor will saves.
The wizard asked me if he could treat his spellbook as a staff with carved runes. I said yes. This spells doom. Luckily his will save is pretty good.
The cleric is just a cleric. He can afford to have his weapons shattered.
I know, I have a rather unique case. And my playstyle is very odd. I don't tend to hand out magic weapons very often. I usually substitute magic weapons found as treasure for various ingredients that can be used to enhance your current weapon very cheaply or even for free. It's not uncommon in my games for a fighter to use the same weapon from level 1 to 20. Getting weapons destroyed is often like loosing a different party member.
Now, I had forgotten that shatter doesn't affect magical objects. That's a good thing. I still think that Nuealia will have it prepared, as that makes sense. But I think I'm going to replace the wizards shatter spell with something different - any flavorful suggestions?
Anyway, thanks again for the feedback. I know it's a unique position. An otherwise odd situation for an odd group.
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...I'm having some serious reservations or concerns....One guy spent a good two paragraphs on his background talking about his ancestral weapon...Our rogue is going for a total "mad grenadier" vibe. It would almost be an instant kill...The wizard asked me if he could treat his spellbook as a staff with carved runes....
Case 1; This would be a good way to really set up a nemesis for that PC, if the caster does shatter the sword and escape, laughing. Of course, you know the player, so would have to judge whether he'd take it as a RP cue, or flip the table...
Case 2; I really don't see a problem with this either. Most players seem to have no concept of where their gear actually goes, and assume that as long as it's under their weight allowance, they can just draw it at will. They carry all sorts of fragile or dangerous items, and fall down pits, get fireballed, etc without a thought, only believing there's cause for concern if they roll a natural 1 for a save.
I've heard players loaded with flammable materials swear blind that they could get shot with scorching rays all day, and never catch fire, since there's no save for them to roll a 1 on.
I would give the PC a chance though, and not make him the obvious first target. Unless of course, he gives away the existence of his gear. It's a good idea to ask the players to describe the location of any items, anyway, since all sorts of mishaps can occur (backpacks torn off, sacks of loot dropped for getaway, pony snatched by griffon...).
Once he starts with the grenade-tossing, he should make himself a high-priority target, since the NPC can be excused for thinking "There's more where they came from..."
If the player declares that all the vials are to hand, say, in a bandolier, then the NPC is quite right to blow him away (after an easy Spot check?).
If he says they're all hidden from view, then he has to dig in his pack for each one, so miss a round, throw a vial, miss a round, etc. No Rapid Shot, or iterative attacks, either...
One of the reasons Heward's Handy Haversack is required equipment for any missile/magical PC...
Case 3; Breaking a wizard's quarterstaff is not usually deemed high priority, unless the NPC believes it to be something more. Since it would only be referred to when preparing spells at the start of the day, there's no reason (other than RP flavour) for there to be any visible or magic-radiating effect while actually casting. And the player should not be penalised for adding a RP flavour to the game, especially if every other wizard can be regularly engulfed in flames and have their paper spellbook survive.
If it were the 'variant familiar' type staff, from Dragon magazine, which does act as a spell-trigger and touch-deliverer, the above may vary, though.
Don't forget, that any key item that is Shattered could be repaired by Make Whole (2nd Level Cleric spell.)
Well, unless you figure that shatter produces an effect like Disintegrate, which I don't.
As noted, the results of a shatter spell can easily be repaired by make whole, but for that Weapon of Legacy you could actually work shattering the weapon into it's legend as well. The player has written as much as he knows of the weapon. In truth, it was sundered once before and the wielder had to find a master craftsman to repair it...so the quest to repair it becomes part of the first legacy ritual.
As for the rogue, said character needs to understand early on the danger of playing that role--there's a reason such folks are considered "mad" after all, since they willingly strap themselves down with enough dangerous substances to kill themselves...Have a goblin commando early on use a sunder attack against a flask or vial so the player is aware of the danger.
Our rogue is going for a total "mad grenadier" vibe. He's got ranks in Craft (Alchemy) [I house rule it so that anyone can use the skill, not just spellcasters] and is starting out with about 4-5 flasks of acid and fire on his person. I'm sure by the time they hit Weathertop they're he's going to be loaded down with them. It would almost be an instant kill. He's got a 12 wisdom and poor will saves.
I played Shadowrun back in college. One guy thought his character a mad grenadier and carried around a bunch of grenades, some C-12, and some explosive rounds. Failed a stealth roll and go hit with a mana ball. Funny thing, in Shadowrun 1ed, mana balls set off explosives. 20 grenade, 50 explosive rounds and 4kg of C-12 later...
Thus is the downfall of the mad grenadier.
Personally I think shatter is a woefully underused spell. We got a wand of shatter on AoW, and it came in nice and handy against the ceramic air elemental guys...and the remaining charges annoyed the hell out of the high priest of Hextor ("Hmm...what does the Hextor Holy Symbol look like? I shatter it..."). It also acts as an inprovised detect magic. ("Hey, that unattended sword didnt shatter....Hmmmmm...")
I would consider helping out PC's if someone had ranks in religion to anticipate the use of such spells (or mention the Domain). I'm considering this only because I'm playing with inexperienced players. They're cautious, but everything is new to them, and they don't otherwise know what to expect. The main fighter in my game has two swords anyway, neither are special, and one use will instill much wisdom for later.
I agree not to be overly worried about the grenade happy rogue, anyway. Granted, the spell can be used in a general "let's play the game of battleship" approach, but I'd wager that a caster will first try it only on obvious threats, or something visually obvious that will improve the battlefield in the caster's favor.
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There are two key points to this spell. First, it *does not* work against magic items. Legacy weapons are magic items, potions are magic items, elixers (that are wondrous items) are magic items. Alchemist's Fire may not be magical. Some players miss that it doesn't work against magic items, citing this source here:
"Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level."
It doesn't say "non-magical" there, does it? No, but it does say it a few sentences up, when it covers the three things it can do.
"Shatter creates a loud, ringing noise that breaks brittle, nonmagical objects; sunders a single solid, nonmagical object; or damages a crystalline creature."
Then it goes into detail on each of those three things. It doesn't say nonmagical again below because it has already stated it.
So, that covered, it becomes a lot less powerful. Most non-magical items can be easily replaced, though I admit it's a pain to replace masterwork items. That comes to my second point.
Held items, even nonmagical ones, always get a saving throw. That's where this line comes in:
"Saving Throw: Will negates (object); Will negates (object) or Fortitude half; see text"
Let's check the line about "Object" saving throws in the PHB.
"(object)
The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object uses the creature’s saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. (This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects. Some spells of this sort can be cast on creatures or objects.) A magic item’s saving throw bonuses are each equal to 2 + one-half the item’s caster level. "
Now, as a nonmagical item, I don't believe it has a saving throw. Still, as noted there, it does get it's owners saving throw, as I doubt the owner wants to let his item be destroyed. This is the most forgotten part I've seen, and I've had DMs and players alike both miss it.
So, in the end, two key points.
1. Shatter cannot be used to damage any type of magic item.
2. Even non-magical items, so long as they are attended in some way (see above) get a saving throw against the attack. It is a Will saving throw using their owner's bonus, and if it succeeds, shatter has no effect.
Taking both of those points into consideration, Shatter becomes less of a powerful spell, and more of a DM annoyance spell (say goodbye to any non-magical locks you have).
Legacy weapons are magic items...
Important note, Legacy weapons are not necessarily magic items. I'm assuming this one, for instance, is a Masterwork item. It woldn't actual become magical unless the first legacy ritual is completed. Of course, I could be wrong and perhaps the DM is allowing a +1 weapon, but such is not necessary for Legacy items (and indeed the book actually discourages using items that are "too" magical at the start).
All sorts of unnecessary commentary
Already covered, early on:
I may have messed this up in the tactics here and there in Burnt Offerings, but it's worth noting that shatter can't destroy magic items so it's not as harrowing as you might think. It's easy enough to replace non-magic stuff that gets blowed up, in any event.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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There are two key points to this spell. First, it *does not* work against magic items. Legacy weapons are magic items, potions are magic items, elixers (that are wondrous items) are magic items. Alchemist's Fire may not be magical. Some players miss that it doesn't work against magic items, citing this source here:
The actual liquid Potion is a magical item... but the vial it's stored in most certainly is not!!!
I actually hadn't read too much into the strategies yet and hadn't noticed the focus on popularity of shatter spells. I'm less concerned with breaking my PC's swords than I am with having multiple encounters come out cookie-cutter from the same tactics.
For those of you who have run this or studied the encounters, is this a valid concern? Will each successive spellcaster battle consist of "Huhn...she broke this sword too..."?
Warlocks just rub me the wrong way.
Ah, but aren't we supposed to? >-)
I really enjoy shatter, as a player, and I agree it doesn't see a lot of use at many tables. Also, as many of us Order of the Stick readers know, fighters are faaaaaaar from helpless if their ickle sword goes SNAP. And don't forget, the players have access to shatter too; what's good for the goose is good for the goblin, after all.
Here's an even munchier tactic I've used before: some spells use brittle, non-magical material spell components, like Lightning Bolt (small glass rod). Just as a readied disarm can deprive someone of their needed component, a canny caster can hang back, watch the wizard, then hit them with a Shatter as they're about to cast a spell. The wizard gets to save, but with a low Fort they make a prime target for the spell :D I've done that in duels to counter a caster's spell without having to resort to a Dispel Magic.
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Shatter's useful. I've used it in my campaigns. Fact that other DMs and Player's over look the spell isn't Paizo's problem.
As noted, it doesn't effect magic items.
A legacy item that's "sleeping" because the ritual for it hasn't been completed is still a magical item. Anyone saying otherwise is an idiot. It doesn't do magical damage sure, but something about it is still magical.
As for potions, well, PCs better hope they roll well. In any case, the PCs can replace their potions in Sandpoint, they're heroes there after all.
