I'm not seeing any untagged maps in the PDF for Gamemastery modules? (not in Pathfinder either I'll guess?) That's a big loss for those of us that play online. Any chance they might show up?
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Prodigious use of the "smudge" tool in GIMP or Photoshop is in order:). Although I've made this request many times for Dungeon Magazine maps to be un-numbered for those that like to play via some virtual tabletop utility it has not, as of yet, been embraced.
Until then my maps are rife with slightly blurred sections.
Later,
Greg Volz
Ordo Arcanum
http://www.ordoarcanum.com
I'm not seeing any untagged maps in the PDF for Gamemastery modules? (not in Pathfinder either I'll guess?) That's a big loss for those of us that play online. Any chance they might show up?
>> Although I've made this request many times for Dungeon Magazine maps to be un-numbered
The PDF downloads for Dungeon have unnumbered, untrapped maps. They are very, very handy for online play.
If we can't get untagged maps, might the maps be declared OGL so that we can share them rather than each DM being on their own?
They even disabled the use of the select image tool to snag the image without the text on them. They lost me as a customer until we get unlabeled maps.
j.
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The process of producing the maps and delivering them to Paizo usually involves flattening the text layers into the image, so the numbers and labels are part of the image itself. This makes the files a lot more manageable in terms of size: they transfer to Paizo more smoothly.
That said, I've started providing them with layered versions where the text can be edited at Paizo if they find a typo, so that may open up the possibility for something like the PDF image capture you're talking about. The text is still in Photoshop when I send it to them, though, with special layer adjustments to create outlines, shadowing, etc--so I don't know how hard it would be for them to remake it in their design & layout software.
The process of producing the maps and delivering them to Paizo usually involves flattening the text layers into the image, so the numbers and labels are part of the image itself. This makes the files a lot more manageable in terms of size: they transfer to Paizo more smoothly.
That said, I've started providing them with layered versions where the text can be edited at Paizo if they find a typo, so that may open up the possibility for something like the PDF image capture you're talking about. The text is still in Photoshop when I send it to them, though, with special layer adjustments to create outlines, shadowing, etc--so I don't know how hard it would be for them to remake it in their design & layout software.
I'm no PDF expert, but how come I can copy the text off the images?
j., Christopher West is my favorite cartographer but Rob Lazzaretti is getting better every day.
Chief Technical Officer
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They even disabled the use of the select image tool to snag the image without the text on them.
To be clear, we haven't "disabled" anything like that. As Chris says, the maps and text are usually flattened at some point in the process, and that's what prevents you from selecting the image from "behind" the text. The image is *not* behind the text—the text is part of the image in those cases.
We're having a meeting in the near future to discuss our PDF strategies for the GameMastery products. We know what you want, and we'll see if we can't find an easy way to implement it. (But, fair warning: the more it complicates our processes, the less likely it is to happen.)
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Chief Technical Officer
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They even disabled the use of the select image tool to snag the image without the text on them.To be clear, we haven't "disabled" anything like that. As Chris says, the maps and text are usually flattened at some point in the process, and that's what prevents you from selecting the image from "behind" the text. The image is *not* behind the text—the text is part of the image in those cases.
Oh—I think I might see what you're taking about. I was talking about flattened maps like the half-page ones on the inside cover of Module D0.
In the case of full-page maps, like the ones on the inside covers of the Rise of the Runelords Player's Guide, it appears that Adobe Reader is treating the image like it treats page backgrounds—that is, you have to option-click them to select them. (I guess this is intended to keep you from accidentally selecting the background when you're trying to select the text.)
Those particular maps aren't flattened, so you can select the image without any of the text with no problem.
In the case of full-page maps, like the ones on the inside covers of the Rise of the Runelords Player's Guide, it appears that Adobe Reader is treating the image like it treats page backgrounds—that is, you have to option-click them to select them. (I guess this is intended to keep you from accidentally selecting the background when you're trying to select the text.)
Those particular maps aren't flattened, so you can select the image without any of the text with no problem.
I've tried with the RotR PG, no success. I'm using Adobe Reader 8.1
j.
Actually, I've got a question for you folks who use untagged electronic maps: what do you do about secret rooms?
If you're playing an online game, then you're probably using software that lets you hide portions of the map. That's my situation at least playing with Kloogewerks.
The DM can see the full map and can mark which portions of the map are revealed/concealed to the players. As the players move about, the DM reveals new sections. The players are playing directly on the map so we're looking for a map without numbers (just so it looks nice) and without any non-player knowledge (secret doors, traps, etc.)
(And I'll just repeat the OGL hope so maybe it could be discussed in the upcoming PDF meeting: If the PDFs are too hard to do, consider making the maps OGL. Then the user community could clean them up and easily/legally share them.)
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DMFTodd
what software are you using to hide portions of the maps?
as a online DM, this would be very handy for me to know.
thanks!!
RM
I personally use Map Tools v1.2 myself though I use it with a projector it would be excellent for online play (its intended purpose) as well. It allows you to use vision and automatically reveal sight to the players. I suggest you take a look at it and if you have any questions the people on the forums are very helpful.
http://rptools.net/doku.php?
Robert
DMFTodd
what software are you using to hide portions of the maps?
Any of the Virtual Tabletop software programs do that. I use Kloogewerks. There's also MapTools, Battlegrounds, FantasyGrounds, OpenRPG, and many others. The Battlegrounds website has a complete index to all the VT software.
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Chief Technical Officer
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In the case of full-page maps, like the ones on the inside covers of the Rise of the Runelords Player's Guide, it appears that Adobe Reader is treating the image like it treats page backgrounds—that is, you have to option-click them to select them. (I guess this is intended to keep you from accidentally selecting the background when you're trying to select the text.)
Those particular maps aren't flattened, so you can select the image without any of the text with no problem.
I've tried with the RotR PG, no success. I'm using Adobe Reader 8.1
j.
Well, it's working for me with Reader 8.1 on a Mac. Maybe for Windows the modifier key for this click is ctrl or alt?
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Chief Technical Officer
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(And I'll just repeat the OGL hope so maybe it could be discussed in the upcoming PDF meeting: If the PDFs are too hard to do, consider making the maps OGL. Then the user community could clean them up and easily/legally share them.)
The artwork (including maps), are among the most important parts of the intellectual property we're creating here, so I don't think that's going to happen. However, I suspect we'll be able to work out the PDF thing, so it shouldn't matter.
Actually, I've got a question for you folks who use untagged electronic maps: what do you do about secret rooms?
I run play-by-post games, so I use GIMP to clone or black out sections of the map that players should not see. Sure, I can clone away the numbers and S labels for secret doors too, but that's much harder to do without smudging other things like furniture or even walls. And nothing draws a player's attention like the slightest hint of a room's interior having been tampered with.
The ideal, of course, would be for Paizo to provide a layered map with secret rooms and labels separately layered. Then I wouldn't need to do any work other than resize the maps. Yeah, dream on.
Being able to have untagged (numberless) maps for GameMastery Modules, Pathfinder, and Dungeon 144 to 150 is very important to me, and I am glad to read that it's in the works.
A couple of previous posts I've made pertaining to this for reference:
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I am new at this whole manipulating maps thing. I have Photoshop and all the Adobe stuff I need. How do I copy the image without text? I was working on it and I cannot seem to select without text so far.
I am thinking I might want to make battle maps out of some of the maps as others have talked about.
Well, it's working for me with Reader 8.1 on a Mac. Maybe for Windows the modifier key for this click is ctrl or alt?
It worked with using Ctrl. Thanks Vic.
j.
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Chief Technical Officer
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If a map has been flattened during the production process—that is, text has become part of the image—there's nothing you can do to extract just the underlying image. An easy way to identify these maps is to try selecting just the text—if you can't select it, it has been flattened.
If a map has not been flattened—that is, the text is a separate set of objects in the PDF—you can easily extract the underlying image. If it's not a full-page map, just select the image. If it is a full-page map, you'll have to ctrl-click (Windows) or option-click (Mac) to select it.
The artwork (including maps), are among the most important parts of the intellectual property we're creating here,
Artwork I can understand by why maps? What's somebody going to do - take your map and write a new adventure for it?
OGL maps would be really handy for the community: Turn them into battlemaps, create the needed player-only maps, turning them into Dunjinni maps so DMs could modify them, etc. Goodman Games is doing it.
I use ScreenMonkey for non-d20 games and Fantasy Grounds for my d20 games.
Most, if not all, Virtual Tabletop (VT) tools have some sort of "fog of war" where you, as a player cannot see the entire map.
Examples
DM View
Combine with Skype and it's almost like you're there.
If any Paizo person would like to see this in action just email me at fatogre@fatogre.net. All you need is a web-browser, a microphone, a free Skype account and a little time.
I plan on running games for Pathfinder as an example in this thread on Fantasy Grounds
Later,
Greg Volz
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The artwork (including maps), are among the most important parts of the intellectual property we're creating here, so I don't think that's going to happen. However, I suspect we'll be able to work out the PDF thing, so it shouldn't matter.
Why Not Embrace The Community Like Goodman Games has done.
Dundjinni Users have been making and sharing Maps on thier site.They have openly embraced a "free Source" of Maps.
Why Not do the same?
I create Dundjinni Maps to be displayed via projector for ever modual I use.
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If they OGL the maps, I could easily see other individuals and companies taking the maps from Paizo products, creating new adventures based on them, and then re-selling them (quite legally!) in direct competition with the original source.
Making unlabeled versions of the maps available for customers to use in their own games is a good plan, but actually making them open content would let others freely profit from artwork that Paizo had to pay for. (And art is the most expensive part of the whole process.)
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Actually, I've got a question for you folks who use untagged electronic maps: what do you do about secret rooms?
I am a graphic artist by trade so when I am able to pull the maps from the PDF (like I did with Hollows Last Hope), I increase the size to miniature scale and photoshop out the secret doors, rooms, etc. Then, I create add-on pages featuring the room to add to the placed map in the event it is discovered during game play.
With D1, the PDF is locked by password and that is disappointing for me as I really would like to have miniature scale maps for all of the Gamemastery (and Pathfinder) adventures.
Actually, I've got a question for you folks who use untagged electronic maps: what do you do about secret rooms?
If it's online play, I just leave the secret room in the fog of war.
If it's tabletop, I usually will toss cardboard over the map to act as fog of war, or creativly cut the map up to hide the location. My players are pretty good about not pointing out the obvious room with no doors on it.
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Chief Technical Officer
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With D1, the PDF is locked by password and that is disappointing for me as I really would like to have miniature scale maps for all of the Gamemastery (and Pathfinder) adventures.
We have not disabled selecting and copying text or images. The only issue is that if you're looking at a full-page map, Adobe seems to consider it a background instead of an image, so you can't simply click it to select—you have to option-click (Mac) or ctrl-click (Win) to select a background.
Actually, I've got a question for you folks who use untagged electronic maps: what do you do about secret rooms?
I print the maps out on cardstock at 1" = 5 feet, and cut each room/area out to shape. If there's a secret room, it's on a separate piece of cardstock.
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I agree wholeheartedly with Christopher West. As a photoshop professional I can understand how important it is that copyright is maintained. Now that being said, Paizo (and other game companies for that matter) could release the maps clearly stating that the map is for personal use only. They could protect the PDF similarly to the modules as well. Keep in mind though that this does take time and resources.
I hope that Paizo does release the maps from Pathfinder / Gamemastery line
but I can understand if they don't.
Trent Slabaugh
Co-Host / Design & Marketing
DigitalDungeonCast
If they OGL the maps, I could easily see other individuals and companies taking the maps from Paizo products, creating new adventures based on them, and then re-selling them (quite legally!) in direct competition with the original source.
Making unlabeled versions of the maps available for customers to use in their own games is a good plan, but actually making them open content would let others freely profit from artwork that Paizo had to pay for. (And art is the most expensive part of the whole process.)
Second the personal use only set up for maps.
I have a low-tech solution if you can get the map into jpeg format (for luddite DMs like myself). I'm DMing a PBP RHoD campaign, and what I've done is download the jpeg maps off the WotC site, edit them in MS Paint (that's right, the free simple, not-very capable program that came with your Windows) to smudge out features that I don't want players to see, then post the map to my Photobucket account with a link to the game thread. With a bit of care and creativity, it's no problem to smudge out features the PCs shouldn't see effectively enough so that they have no idea they exist. With a modicum of effort, I can mark the positions of PCs and revealed enemies on the map and move them around, updating the map as needed. It's a bit clunky, but it's simple and works fine, and the program is pretty easy to figure out. (I'm a bit intimidated by photoshop).
For random encounters or encounters for which no map is provided, I've figured out how to do simple diagrammatic maps much more quickly than I can find something suitable online. I made a simple grid file, and when I want to make a new map, I just make a copy of the grid file and start drawing. In a pinch, I could do a battle-mat style drawing of a published dungeon as well, updating it as players proceed and reveal new areas/features.
It's not fancy, but it hasn't cost me a dime to set up, and my players are reasonably happy with it, I think.
(P.S. I have no idea if you can convert a pdf into a jpeg, but if not, might I suggest doing the maps themselves in jpeg so that they can be manipulated by the user?)
"Personal use only" doesn't allow us to share the maps with each other does it? If I want to take the map and edit things out, I can already do that. I don't need a "personal use only" statement on it.
Well, it's working for me with Reader 8.1 on a Mac. Maybe for Windows the modifier key for this click is ctrl or alt?It worked with using Ctrl. Thanks Vic.
Wait. Are you saying that you're actually able to CTRL-click the maps of Droskar's Crucible and copy only the image and not the words or numbers?
I sure can't, but I wanted to make sure I was clear that you were able to do it before I spent a lot of time trying to figure out why I can't.
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Well, it's working for me with Reader 8.1 on a Mac. Maybe for Windows the modifier key for this click is ctrl or alt?It worked with using Ctrl. Thanks Vic.
Wait. Are you saying that you're actually able to CTRL-click the maps of Droskar's Crucible and copy only the image and not the words or numbers?
I sure can't, but I wanted to make sure I was clear that you were able to do it before I spent a lot of time trying to figure out why I can't.
I have tried this several times myself and am also not able to do so on any of the maps with Pathfinder or the Modules.