Recently, a Medium-sized PC found himself charging a Large monster. Now, as I am sure you are all aware, this would require the PC, who was not using a reach weapon, to move through a threatened square of the Large creature, which normally provokes an AoO. I mentioned this risk to the charging character, when the DM, Sexi Golem, said he didn't think that was correct. He was under the impression that charging exempted you from AoO from your target (although other creatures could still make normal AoO for your movement as applicable). Otherwise, he reasoned, the maneuver is far less valuable.
It didn't sound right to me at the time, but we all just went with it to let the game keep flowing. Now I've remembered the issue, and examined the rules for charging in the PHB, along with the rules for provoking AoO while moving, and I can't find this rule. Am I missing something, or was the call erroneous?
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Charging provokes AoOs for movement. I suspect that he was thinking about Spring Attack, which is almost worth taking just to avoid the AoOs.
For a particularly nasty combination, consider readying an attack with a set spear for when the character gets in range, then taking the AoO when the character moves out of the threatened square.
Double-plus good.
8-)
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Charging provokes AoOs for movement. I suspect that he was thinking about Spring Attack, which is almost worth taking just to avoid the AoOs.
For a particularly nasty combination, consider readying an attack with a set spear for when the character gets in range, then taking the AoO when the character moves out of the threatened square.
Double-plus good.
8-)
I don't think you could double it. Once you take that AoO, the spear would no longer be set against the charge anymore.
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I don't think you could double it. Once you take that AoO, the spear would no longer be set against the charge anymore.
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you could double both the readied attack and the AoO, but you could certainly double the first.
ps. "Double-plus good" is an homage to Orwell's 1984. The semantic ambiguity was intended to refer to the fact that while it might be good for the GM, it would be rather less so for the PCs.
ps. "Double-plus good" is an homage to Orwell's 1984.
A D&D player who reads something other than Tolkien and R.A. Salvatore? A great day for the boards... "And there I found myself more truly and more strange."
So figuring this, anything with 10 foot reach gets to use the feat "Hold the Line" once per round?(Assuming one AOO per round)
The charge itself doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity, leaving the space 10ft out from the large creature would. Basically since the creature presumably has reach more than 10ft, the pc would be leaving a threatened square before he reached the creature.
That was exactly my reasoning. He seemed to think there was some clause preventing the AoO this would normally incur when you do it as part of a charge.
Doug- I love the spear idea. I can see the faces dropping into scowls even as I type. >:)
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Um, Charging is spelled out per the Full-Round action table as not provoking an attack of opportunity (from the target)
Exiting a threated square provokes an AoO, not entering. So the only possible time to benefit from the Charge not provoking an AoO is when the target has reach.
While not specifically answering the question at hand, the answer still does answer the question...
Any time a character wielding more than one weapon is
allowed an attack of opportunity, he may use any weapon that
threatens the opponent who has provoked the attack. In this
case, imagine an enemy who charged the character and then
tried to disarm him. The charge attack would provoke an attack
of opportunity from the longspear as the enemy moved out of a
threatened square (in order to move adjacent to the character
and deliver the charge attack). Then, the disarm attempt would
provoke another attack of opportunity (assuming the enemy
didn’t have Improved Disarm). This attack of opportunity could
be made only with the armor spikes, since the longspear
doesn’t threaten an adjacent enemy.
So, basically -- yes -- charging can provoke an attack of opportunity if they move out of a threatened square. If the target doesn't have reach, then the target does not get an attack of opportunity.
Hope this helps.
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Charging provokes AoOs for movement. I suspect that he was thinking about Spring Attack, which is almost worth taking just to avoid the AoOs.
For a particularly nasty combination, consider readying an attack with a set spear for when the character gets in range, then taking the AoO when the character moves out of the threatened square.
Double-plus good.
8-)
For gratuitous abuse, add the Hold the Line feat, and get three attacks.
Add in Short Haft, and then you can full attack the guy if he is still alive without having to step back.Top it off with Greater Enlarge Person, and you will probably have to flee the wrath of the players or DM as applicable.
(DM's using naturally large size creatures with Large and In Charge are solely responsible for the consequences. I would never sanction something like that.)
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For gratuitous abuse, add the Hold the Line feat, and get three attacks.
You would need Combat Reflexes, but yeah, it could be done. I don't remember if Combat Reflexes is a prereq for Hold the Line or not... I think it might be, in which case you're golden.
I think I'm going to make a fighter/sorcerer/spellsword with this build. The sorcerer levels are there for stuff like wind wall to force even ranged attackers to pull out the melee weapons and charge you and, of course, for the enlarge person. Evil, evil thoughts...
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For gratuitous abuse, add the Hold the Line feat, and get three attacks.
Add in Short Haft, and then you can full attack the guy if he is still alive without having to step back.
Top it off with Greater Enlarge Person, and you will probably have to flee the wrath of the players or DM as applicable.
(DM's using naturally large size creatures with Large and In Charge are solely responsible for the consequences. I would never sanction something like that.)
You, sir, are a true RBDM. I salute you.
8-)
For gratuitous abuse, add the Hold the Line feat, and get three attacks.
Add in Short Haft, and then you can full attack the guy if he is still alive without having to step back.
Top it off with Greater Enlarge Person, and you will probably have to flee the wrath of the players or DM as applicable.
(DM's using naturally large size creatures with Large and In Charge are solely responsible for the consequences. I would never sanction something like that.)You, sir, are a true RBDM. I salute you.
8-)
Hear hear!
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I don't have my books and don't remember: Is there a long pike/sarissa (15' reach for a medium character) in any of the usual books? (It would be easy enough to make one, but if the work's been done....)
Because 15' reach, braced vs. charge, AoO, Hold the Line could be a viable response to those abusive charger builds other than butchering the entire party with NPCs using the same build. Not that I know anyone who might do something like that; I'm just saying.
8-)
Contributor
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I don't have my books and don't remember: Is there a long pike/sarissa (15' reach for a medium character) in any of the usual books? (It would be easy enough to make one, but if the work's been done....)
Because 15' reach, braced vs. charge, AoO, Hold the Line could be a viable response to those abusive charger builds other than butchering the entire party with NPCs using the same build. Not that I know anyone who might do something like that; I'm just saying.
8-)
There was one in an issue of Dragon that had an article on pole-arms. I don't remember exactly whihc issue. It might have been drawn from another source as well.
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I don't have my books and don't remember: Is there a long pike/sarissa (15' reach for a medium character) in any of the usual books? (It would be easy enough to make one, but if the work's been done....)8-)
I'm pretty sure I've seen a feat somewhere that allows you to extend your reach by 5' for one attack as a full-round action, but I don't know of any weapons with 15 ft. reach other than a whip (which kinda sucks, statistically).
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I'm pretty sure I've seen a feat somewhere that allows you to extend your reach by 5' for one attack as a full-round action, but I don't know of any weapons with 15 ft. reach other than a whip ...
IIRC, that feat requires a full-round attack to attack with an extra 5' of reach. (I've been thinking of taking it with a Rogue character I have. I don't think it would work in this situation. Thanks for the idea, though.
... (which kinda sucks, statistically).
You're in a charitable mood today. 8-)
I'll take a look at the Dragon article if I can find the pile with Iss. 331. Thanks.
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IIRC, that feat requires a full-round attack to attack with an extra 5' of reach.That's what I said:
I'm pretty sure I've seen a feat somewhere that allows you to extend your reach by 5' for one attack as a full-round action,
And yes, whips do suck because they do crap for damage and can't even hurt anything with natural armor or manufactured armor better than leather (IIRC). Whip daggers aren't as bad, but I remember seeing something about the fact that they don't threaten squares for AoOs, which kind of renders the whole argument moot.
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That's what I saidWhy, yes you did. Sorry about that, I was skimming several responses at once and didn't read closely.
No problem. :)
Does anyone happen to remember where that feat is found? Is it the PHB2 or one of the Complete books? I'm pretty sure it's one or the other.
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Does anyone happen to remember where that feat is found? Is it the PHB2 or one of the Complete books? I'm pretty sure it's one or the other.
In Dragon 331 --
Long Strike
Prerequisite: Base Attack +2
Basically it gives a polearm reach of 10' by using a full attack action. If the polearm has reach, it is extended by an additional 5'.
Not sure if it was in a WotC book. I don't think that it is in either Complete Warrior or PHB2, so I don't think it is in any of the sources you cited. It might have been a racial feat of some form.
EDIT: Magagumo corrected me. Lunging Strike basically does the same thing only better -- it doesn't have to be a polearm.
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In Dragon 331 --
Long Strike
Prerequisite: Base Attack +2
Basically it gives a polearm reach of 10' by using a full attack action. If the polearm has reach, it is extended by an additional 5'.
No, the feat I'm thinking of can apply to any weapon, not just a polearm, and I know it's not from Dragon because I know it's in a book I own and I don't have any Dragon issues (or, if it is in Dragon, it was then subsequently replicated in a WotC book).
EDIT: I think Magagumo is correct. I'll double-check when I get home.
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So, pending a longer search for an existing weapon, how about the following:
Pike, Simple, 2-handed, +10' reach (normally no attacks at 5' or 10'), can be set vs. charge, 1d4/1d6 piercing, 20/x3, 11 lb.
Less damage than long spear because the longer weapon is harder to move around. I thought about restricting the number of targets per turn, but that seems too mechanically annoying.
Sarissa, Martial, 2-handed, +10' reach (normally no attacks at 5' or 10'), can be set vs. charge, 1d6/1d8 piercing, 20/x3, 12 lb.
This one is based on Glaive.
I've repurposed names to indicate a difference where there is arguably no historical difference. It's not historical illiteracy, it's a D&D tradition.
... whips do suck because they do crap for damage and can't even hurt anything with natural armor or manufactured armor better than leather (IIRC). Whip daggers aren't as bad, but I remember seeing something about the fact that they don't threaten squares for AoOs, which kind of renders the whole argument moot.
In most cases, yes. However, I've seen many a bard use a whip to great effect. It's not about the damage (which is usually literally nonexistant), it's about having 15-foot reach with a weapon that allows trip attempts and gives a bonus on disarms, while still being able to strike at foes closer than 15 feet (although I can't recommend striking at adjacent foes, or you provoke an AoO). Plus, Weapon Finesse allows you to you your Dex on the attack roll. Considering a bard's typically craptacular combat options (unless they have Arcane Strike, the Power Attack of bards), the whip is perhaps one of their better choices.
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...it's about having 15-foot reach with a weapon that allows trip attempts and gives a bonus on disarms, while still being able to strike at foes closer than 15 feet (although I can't recommend striking at adjacent foes, or you provoke an AoO).
Hmm... a whip is a one-handed weapon, yeah? I can see a bard with Weapon Finesse and Improved Trip making effective use of a whip and sickle combo.
You know... I might have to do this now... thanks!
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You, sir, are a true RBDM. I salute you.
8-)
Thank you.
But I never used that against my players.I came close, with some pole-axe armed frost giants, but that build (including the combat reflexes which I had forgotten to include in my description, it is required) was one I came up with for the cohort of one of the players.
Given the brutality of some of my other giants builds, they needed it.
>:)
In most cases, yes. However, I've seen many a bard use a whip to great effect. It's not about the damage (which is usually literally nonexistant), it's about having 15-foot reach with a weapon that allows trip attempts and gives a bonus on disarms, while still being able to strike at foes closer than 15 feet (although I can't recommend striking at adjacent foes, or you provoke an AoO). Plus, Weapon Finesse allows you to you your Dex on the attack roll. Considering a bard's typically craptacular combat options (unless they have Arcane Strike, the Power Attack of bards), the whip is perhaps one of their better choices.
All Hail the mighty Gary and all powerful Serwacy. lol
The charge itself doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity, leaving the space 10ft out from the large creature would. Basically since the creature presumably has reach more than 10ft, the pc would be leaving a threatened square before he reached the creature.That was exactly my reasoning. He seemed to think there was some clause preventing the AoO this would normally incur when you do it as part of a charge.
Hmmm...I thought there was just such a clause as well but I don't see it when looking at the SRD. Still if both me and SexiGolem think that something acts in a certain way there is probably some kind of basis for our misconception. Could be we are thinking of a feat or something.
Hmmm...I thought there was just such a clause as well but I don't see it when looking at the SRD. Still if both me and SexiGolem think that something acts in a certain way there is probably some kind of basis for our misconception. Could be we are thinking of a feat or something.The charge itself doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity, leaving the space 10ft out from the large creature would. Basically since the creature presumably has reach more than 10ft, the pc would be leaving a threatened square before he reached the creature.That was exactly my reasoning. He seemed to think there was some clause preventing the AoO this would normally incur when you do it as part of a charge.
I'm pretty sure that I had just gotten used to a bunch of combat manuvers specifically stating that they provoked attacks of opportunity. Saern had recently introduced a paladin to my game so I spent a great deal of time getting better aquianted with the overrun and charge combat options. I never saw any AoO mentioned in the charge rules themselves, so I assumed they were exempt. My bad.