Over in this thread some people were considering the idea of starting a thread about non-standard clerics. So, here it is.
I like the idea of non-standard clerics, and believe that in an ideal campaign, all clerics should be different, from level 1, without having to be built around the "heavy armour/mace/heal/turn" pattern from the PHB, until several levels later, when they take a prestige class, to differentiate themselves from other faiths. The standard cleric, I believe, covers too many bases, far too well, and I would suggest, needs trimming.
The "Jozan" concept (to use the PHB iconic) is fine for clerics of martial deities who hate undead, but falls completely flat when you try to apply it to priests of healing/love/literature/music/magic/thievery, etc.
Agreed, wholeheartedly. Maybe we ought to start a new thread for "non-genericizing the cleric," and come up with lists of alternative class features.
I agree with this too. I use the Spontaneous Domain Casting variant from PHB2 and the Improved Domain Powers from Dragon #342. But even with these variants, the clerics of different gods are still pretty similar.
In a solo campaign, I worked with the player to make a variant cleric who worshipped the god of fun, trickery and luck. She traded in some armour proficiencies and spellcasting ability, downgraded the hit dice, and lost a few other things. In return, she got access to some rogue skills and sneak attack. Not quite sure how balanced that was (didn't need to balance it against other players, seeing as it was a solo campaign) but it was definitely more interesting than a standard cleric trying to be a rogue. I don't think clerics should have to multiclass to be a representative of their god. This "Reveler" class wasn't as good as a rogue, and lost several cleric abilities, but you could look at the class abilities and know what kind of god this cleric worshipped.
So, what do you do to make clerics more representative of their gods? What should a cleric of the god of love or knowledge be like? I think the idea of making a list of alternate class features is a good one. Let's see what we can come up with.
Well, a friend of mine recently got the Complete Champion. I haven't been able to look through it for more than a few moments, but on the occassion I had, a certain PrC (don't know the name) caught my eye. It was completely bare bones, without even a good save. However, you chose some type of deity to worship, such as a stealth god, healing god, battle god, etc. The determined everything the class gave you, including what good saves you got. Now, perhaps that would be a bit too modular for such a basic element of the game.
However, you could handle it as a series of alternate class features, such as exist in many Dragons and the PHB2 and some of the newer Completes. Or, you could make the cleric somewhat more adaptable, similar to a ranger and the combat styles (this has often been suggested before now). Armor proficiencies seem to be a good "focus point" for these changes. In either case, I suggest taking a look at the relevant Completes (Champion and Divine). I'm interested to see what people come up with!
As far as my own feelings, I think that changing their skill points to 4 per level isn't a bad idea. As is, they almost have to blow them all in Knowledge (religion), Concentration, and either Heal, Spellcraft, or maybe (if you're lucky), Diplomacy. There's almost no room for diversity in skill selection, and it seems to make little sense. Druids get that number, why not clerics? Just because they're "wilderness themed" and not all clerics are? Certainly the two classes are otherwise near identical in power, if not slightly weighted towards the druid.
I love clerics (second only to rogues). I feel they come with some built in roleplaying opportunities that help give each one a different feel. As for mechanically different, I would be a big fan of having each deity present different skills as class skills, or even having certain spells restricted from the clergy.
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The killer is actually needing decently detailed gods, but...
Each god needs an alignment (check) domains (check) a dominion, by which I mean s generalized aspect, like war or love or travel, seems to be started in the Complete Champion, and one or more enemies.
The dominion defines class skills and skill points and feats
the domains define extra abilities
and the enemy replaces the Undead part of turn undead. god of elves hates god of orcs, elf cleric turns orcs, not undead
This way a god of thieves doesn't have clerics wandering out in full plate. Instead they get light armor, hide, move silent, search, open locks, disable device and slight of hand as class skills and 6 SP/level, and can turn (stun) law enforcement
Maybe we should start by listing existing OGL and non-OGL goodies we can use as benchmarks, or examples, or to save us work. Saern already mentioned Complete Champion, which sounds like it's got the right thing for us (but unfortunately I don't own a copy). Also,
1. The cloistered cleric (Unearthed Arcana, I think) offers mucho skill points in exchange for reduced combat potential. In fact, looking at the racial substitution levels in the "Races of" books, it seems as if -1 HD type = +2 skill points as an even swap.
2. Alternatively, for clerics of Olidammara, etc., it seems like giving up medium and heavy armor proficiency and shields should be worth 4 skill points instead of 2.
3. There are any number of "alternative class features" that trade for the ability to turn undead; off the top of my head, there's one that gives you an animal companion (as adruid) instead, but I'm not sure of the source. Alternatively, you could take the Flaw that eliminates the turn undead ability (again, the source eludes me), and then use the resulting bonus feat for whatever you want.
Others?
Oh, and just thought I'd point out that nothing says a cleric of Olidammara, or anyone else, has to wear heavy armor. You can slap in a decent Dex score and wear a chain shirt to your heart's content and pretend you're a rogue, and it probably won't go too badly.
The skill points remain the biggest problem for me.
Yeah, i am suggesting trading the "bonus" armor proficiency feats for skill points
I think we're all pretty much on board with that. Looking at the "thug" fighter variant in UA, they trade medium and heavy armor and shield proficiency for +2 skill points/level and a slightly wider skill selection. Since this is in the SRD, I'd recommend it as a model. (People also willing to go for a d6 instead of d8 hit die might get 6 skill points per level instead.)
Just to stimulate discussion: another, alternative avenue towards "unique" clerics might involve multiclassing (preferrably into PrCs with cleric spell progressions). Example: a cleric of Olidammara might be a Rogue 1/Cleric 4/Prestige Bard (from Unearthed Arcana). Yeah, I know prestige bard is supposed to build on arcane spellcasting, but why not use divine spells in this case? It makes an ideal cleric of a god of music and roguery. And as long as we're using UA classes, the prestige paladin makes a geat cleric of Heironeous, and a cleric of Ehlonna with the animal domain could segue into prestige ranger (to get the nature and archery stuff while still maintaining some cleric spell progression). A cleric of Boccob is just begging for Mystic Theurge. A human cleric of Kord might take 1 level in barbarian before joining the priesthood.
Coupled with the wealth of alternative class features and with the Domain Focus feat, we should be able to avoid the "Jozan Syndrome" when making cleric characters of any type.
OK, I've given four or five obvious examples. I won't dispute that some of them won't pass the "Mevers Test"--they're sub-optimal builds in some cases--but at least they're not generic! For discussion, would anyone like to address some more difficult ones? I'm stumped for now for a cleric of Corellon Larethian, for example. Or how about a cleric of Fharlanghn?
Looking at the "thug" fighter variant in UA, they trade medium and heavy armor and shield proficiency for +2 skill points/level and a slightly wider skill selection.
Oops... they lose their 1st level bonus feat as well. Looks like skill points are worth more than we thought.
Oops... they lose their 1st level bonus feat as well. Looks like skill points are worth more than we thought.
Hmmm... that makes things trickier.
Of those other features you mentioned (animal companion, etc.) I've been looking around but I can't seem to find mention of them. I'll have to get out my Dragon magazines soon and look through the Class Acts.
I did, however, find that UA considers Turn Undead to be equal to Smite Evil/Good and Aura of Courage. Here's the variant.
I then looked around to see if I could find any Paladin variants that trade those things out for something else, but I had no success there.
I do agree that the Thug and Cloistered Cleric are a reference point, though.
Time to start rummaging through Dragon...
Oops... they lose their 1st level bonus feat as well. Looks like skill points are worth more than we thought.Hmmm... that makes things trickier.
OK, the City Slicker feat (Races of Destiny; 1st level only) adds Disguise, Forgery, Gather Information, and Knowledge (local) to your list of class skills. This correlates to some extent with the thug's expanded list of class skills, leaving Medium Armor + Heavy Armor + Shield = 2 skill points per level. We could easily make up other feats (one for each core deity would be a snap) that would add other groups of themed skills to the cleric's class list.
Time to start rummaging through Dragon...
My scribbled notes indicate that there's a slew of cleric alternate class features somewhere: Wanderer (lose turn undead, gain Endurance as a bonus feat and add Knowledge (geography), Speak Language, and Survival to your class skills), etc. These look like just the kind of thing we're looking for. Unfortunately, I failed to write down the issue number; time to start leafing through my stack...
OK, the City Slicker feat (Races of Destiny; 1st level only) adds Disguise, Forgery, Gather Information, and Knowledge (local) to your list of class skills. This correlates to some extent with the thug's expanded list of class skills, leaving Medium Armor + Heavy Armor + Shield = 2 skill points per level. We could easily make up other feats (one for each core deity would be a snap) that would add other groups of themed skills to the cleric's class list.
Ah, I see. Cool, that sounds like a good idea, and as you said, fairly easy to implement.
My scribbled notes indicate that there's a slew of cleric alternate class features somewhere
I'm looking through Dragon now. I've found one - which I can't believe I forgot about - the Rage Cleric. It's in Dragon 333, p86.
* Lose medium and heavy armour proficiencies
* Lose turn/rebuke undead
* Lose domains (including domain powers and domain spells)
* Gain rage, indomitable will, tireless rage, mighty rage. You gain these features as a barbarian of your level, and your rage cleric and barbarian levels stack for determining how long you can rage (and for determining your level, for gaining access to indomitable will, etc).
Aha! I've found it! Dragon 353, p88-89. There's over a dozen replacements for turn/rebuke undead here! I'm just reading over them now.
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I've been tinkering (thinking only, so far) about a Cleric Class that only gets Domain Spells. I've never liked the fact that Clerics have a generic spell list the way Sor/Wiz's do.
The gods are pretty detailed, at least, detailed enough to have specific Domains. Just delete the Cleric spell list altogether!
Give each god a Special Abilities package for their clerics (no more Turning for Clerics of Boccob, Olidimarra, Fharlangh...) that is appropriate. And make the Domain spells castable, say, 1/day each + Wis (or other appropriate) modifier. I'd even give each Domain up to 2 spells per level:
Sample god of Knowledge
Domain Spells (Cast 1/day + INT modifier)
1) Identify
2) Detect Thoughts & See Invisibility
3) Clairaudience/Clairvoyance & Tongues
4) Divination & Locate Object & Chain of Eyes
5) True Seeing
6) Find the Path
7) Analyze Dweomer
8) Vision
9) Foresight & Hindsight
Special Abilities
1) Detect Magic, Read Magic
2) Detect Evil (or Good, Law, Chaos)
3) Detect Undead, Detect Outsider
4) Scrying 1/day
5)
6) Discern Lies
7)
8) Arcane Eye
9) Commune 1/week & +10 Gather Info
10)
11)
12)
13) Probe Thoughts 1/day
14)
15) Mind Blank
16) Programed Amnesia
17)
18) Moment of Prescience 1/day
19)
20) Discern Location
Have a great Will Save and, um, whatever. Like I said, I havn't written any of this out before. It would take some tinkering -- then some playtesting. But it'd be FAR better than the system now.
-W. E. Ray
My scribbled notes indicate that there's a slew of cleric alternate class features somewhere: Wanderer (lose turn undead, gain Endurance as a bonus feat and add Knowledge (geography), Speak Language, and Survival to your class skills), etc.
In addition to that one - and many more - there's the animal companion one mentioned earlier. Lose turn undead and become illiterate, in exchange for gaining an animal companion as a druid of half your cleric level. Half your cleric levels stack with druid, ranger, etc. levels to determine the animal companion's abilities.
Some of them are quite different. Justicar: +2 to Sense Motive and any creature you reduce to negative hit points automatically stabilises. That's kinda hard to put a value on. Same with Weaponmaster: +2 to Craft(weaponsmithing) and while wielding your deity's favoured weapon, you don't need a free hand to cast spells.
Some of the other ones actually give spell-like abilities. Fanatic: +2 to Intimidate, and true strike 1/day.
How do you think these measure up to the power of turn undead?
I've been tinkering (thinking only, so far) about a Cleric Class that only gets Domain Spells.
Well it's certainly an interesting idea and I'd like to see more of it. I think it's more of an overhaul, though, whereas the general consensus here is that we're looking to start with a list of alternate class features.
I agree though, which is why I use Spontaneous Domain Casting. As you said, the gods are detailed enough that they shouldn't all be healing and turning undead when those things might be completely irrelevant to their god and his/her doctrine and desires. When the cleric's sneaking around in light armour with a rapier you could guess that she might worship the god of trickery. But when she starts spontaneously casting disguise self and invisibility, it becomes a lot more certain. Makes much more sense that spontaneous cure spells, and I feel that it connects the cleric more strongly to his or her god, somewhat emulating the deity.
Very interesting topic. I thought about this, too, but didn´t need to do anything about it yet (my present campaign has a cleric of Pelor, who works well with the RAW).
I gave all classes at least 4 skill points per level - especially fighters are shorthanded otherwise.
The only thing I would take as being set for clerics is that they cast divine spells. Everything else is open to discussion IMHO.
Hit die: I would take d6 as default, and give d8 only to more warlike priests. Those with d6 could get more skill points (6 per level), as they probably will have other interests.
Armor: non-warlike priests could change armor proficiencies to a like amount of additional feats. These feats should come from a special list for the deity in question, and might give them additional class skills, for example.
Weapons: Simple weapons work fine for most priests, I think. A god might require one of the feats freed from reduced armor profs to be taken for a signature weapon.
Spells: it gets tricky here. If you reduce the access to healing spells, this might imbalance the game - as it is written, it depends upon healing spells. But I like the idea of spontaneous casting "signature" spells - if the priest needs healing, he better prepares them or leaves some slots open.
Domains: The special abilities can do a lot for forming the identity of the priest and the god. If they grant additional class skills, that could be replaced with the exchanged armor feats. Other specialities are harder to replace. The domain spells themselves could be added to the normal spell list and be made available for spontaneous casting.
Just some ideas.
Stefan
There's been some great suggestions so far, and some patterns are emerging.
It seems that a d6 hit die, less weapon and armour proficiencies, more skill points and a wider selection of skills are what the basic cleric should have. I think we should work out this basic cleric and then add to it from there.
We've sort of worked out that the proficiencies seem to be worth about 2 skill points per level. Not really sure what a reduction in hit die is worth, although it was mentioned earlier that it might be worth another 2 skill points per level.
So, the base cleric looks somewhat like this so far:
* Hit Die: d6
* 2 skill points per level
* Proficiency with all simple weapons and light armour
From there, you may choose two of the following options:
* Increase hit die to d8.
* Gain medium and heavy armour proficiency, and shield proficiency (except tower shields).
* Gain 2 more skill points per level and two more class skills. This option can be selected twice.
If you select the skills option both times, then you'll end up with 6 skill points per level and 4 extra class skills. These class skills would be selected from a list specific to each deity (or perhaps domain).
Of course, we still have to deal with turn undead, but getting skills, hit dice, etc. sorted first seems like the logical way to do things.
This is just consolidating what we've worked out so far, but it seems fairly good to me. What do you guys think?
This is just consolidating what we've worked out so far, but it seems fairly good to me. What do you guys think?
Good job in summarizing the ideas so far. To me, it seems workable. One central point to me is that this options still allow to build the standard cleric, which is an important reference IMHO.
Now, we are at the difficult part: Spells, Domains, Turning Undead...
Stefan
Good job in summarizing the ideas so far. To me, it seems workable. One central point to me is that this options still allow to build the standard cleric, which is an important reference IMHO.
Now, we are at the difficult part: Spells, Domains, Turning Undead...
Thanks :)
Yeah, I definitely agree that you must be able to build the standard PHB cleric from this, once all is said and done. And so far, it does that.
Yes... now the tricky part.
Working out what Turn Undead is "worth" is a bit of a problem in my mind. In the article I mentioned earlier, some of the powers seem a bit weak, and some of them seem to have aspects that can't be measured by conventional means (e.g. your enemies automatically stabilise when you reduce them to negative hit points). Unearth Arcana provides the variant that Smite Evil/Good and Aura of Courage (as paladin) is an equal replacement for Turn Undead.
As for what to do about Domains, there's a lot of good options out there already. I've already expressed my fondness for Spontaneously Domain Casting (PHB2), but I let both domains be spontaneously cast. Not sure if that's too much or not. The cleric can prepare cure or inflict spells in what are usually the domain slots. Improved Domain Powers from Dragon are also pretty awesome. The article states that the Improved Domain powers could be a feat, could be gained in exchange for turn undead, or could be swapped for both the standard domain powers. They're very flavourful and most of them suit the domains well and are worth using.
This also seems to suggest that the value of turn undead is the same as a feat is the same as an improved domain power. But that may not be the case. And again, some domains' powers seem stronger than others, but that's just the way things go.
I continue to like the idea of having divine enemies. Basically choosing an appropriate entry off the ranger favored enemy list.
All good gods could include undead.
Perhaps an option for Turn Infidel, effects all non believers, but with a penalty (like half effect)
The concept is pretty cool. I liked your earlier example of roguish clerics being able to stun the guards or make them tremble in fear. However, I tend to think that not all clerics need to turn/rebuke things. Don't get me wrong; for some it could work quite well, but I think some of the Improved Domain Powers grant more interesting and appropriate abilities. I feel that powers such as these are better suited than choosing an enemy for each god. However, it could certainly be an option. Some might be somewhat overdoing it though, if there was ever one that let you turn humans, for example.
As for Turn Infidels, that's an interesting concept too. In Complete Adventurer the Shadowbane Inquisitor PrC allows the inquisitor to "smite a creature that he judges to be corrupt". Maybe it could work along those lines, because the definition of "corrupt" would be different for each type of cleric.
The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards Improved Domain Powers as at least an option for clerics. Clerics with the healing domain can increase the range of a healing spell to 30 feet, once per day per level. It's clear that while all clerics can heal, these guys are the experts.
Clerics with the war domain can, once per day for every two cleric levels, ignore their target's armour or shield bonus to AC as a free action. Clerics with the magic domain can channel their energy into wands and other such items so that using them doesn't use a charge.
The Earth domain allows clerics to strike the ground, creating a miniature earthquake, forcing all creatures standing on the shaken ground to make a balance check or fall prone. Imagine a dwarven cleric calling out his god's name as he slams his warhammer into the ground, shaking the earth, toppling his enemies, standing firm as they fall around him. That's the sort of flavour and difference I'm interested in. Something unique that clearly separates a cleric of one god from that of another.
I've been tinkering (thinking only, so far) about a Cleric Class that only gets Domain Spells. I've never liked the fact that Clerics have a generic spell list the way Sor/Wiz's do. Give each god a Special Abilities package for their clerics (no more Turning for Clerics of Boccob, Olidimarra, Fharlangh...) that is appropriate.
Sounds like you're reverting to the 2nd edition concept of clerics, which was not a bad model at all--but 3e returned them to the 1e model nontheless. Having played them all before, I can say that a limited generic list is NOT a bad thing (who wants to play a cleric who can't cure wounds?). But more importantly, that radical a shift in the current core rules might make it too hard to fit them into existing campaigns and/or to reconcile with clerics in pre-written modules. As someone expressed earlier, it's important that we should be able to take options that result in a "standard" 3.5-e Cleric-as-written, if only to ensure that we're pretty much playing the same game as the designers at Paizo!
But more importantly, that radical a shift in the current core rules might make it too hard to fit them into existing campaigns and/or to reconcile with clerics in pre-written modules. As someone expressed earlier, it's important that we should be able to take options that result in a "standard" 3.5-e Cleric-as-written, if only to ensure that we're pretty much playing the same game as the designers at Paizo!
Yeah, that's basically my thoughts about it too. As I said, the idea is certainly interesting, but I think it's too much of a change for what we're doing here. I completely agree with your reasoning, which shows we're on the same page :)
From there, you may choose two of the following options:
* Increase hit die to d8.
* Gain medium and heavy armour proficiency, and shield proficiency (except tower shields).
* Gain 2 more skill points per level and two more class skills. This option can be selected twice.
Grr, I think my post expressing admiration for the way you've distilled various ideas into a system that can allow generic clerics was eaten by the monsters that lurk in Paizo-space. And we're VERY close to being able to build a cloistered cleric, too... just need to address BAB, domains, spontaneous curing, and turn undead now!
Maybe we can add an option to your list above giving you proficiency (and maybe focus?) in your deity's favored weapon? That way clerics of Ehlonna, for example, could take light armor, d6 HD, 4 skill points, and longbow proficiency.
As to reflect to the ideas popping up before:
1. I don't have anything against using bits from here and there (Dragon, Complete series, etc.), multiclassing and taking prestige classes, but ultimately it will slip out of control of the player, not to mention the DM who needs to know what each character is capable of.
If there is a complicated and different matrix of feats, skills, special abilities for every character, how is the DM supposed to scale the adventures and enemies they are going to face?
2. Bumping up the skill points, number of class skills, armor options, hit dice and so on, that's a nice thing to do to differentiate one cleric from another, but it's not really fair towards the other classes, who in return get nothing...
My take on the whole skill points and class skills problem would be to give 2 extra skill points to every class and overrule the 2 skill points for 1 rank of a cross-class skill for a 1-on-1 basis, but not touching the maximum rank rule to diffrentiate class and cross-class skills.
Each race can choose two (three in case of humans) class skills in addition to the ones given by their chosen class, representing their gifts and talents they were born with.
Voila, no more Fighters who can only Jump, Climb and Swim around and welcome clerics who choose the God of Trickery because they are good at Bluff, Hide and Move Silently to begin with...
And as someone already noted before, said cleric doesn't need to wear heavy armor to cling around just because he can: he can get light armors to better sneak around...
As to granted divine powers to set apart the clerics of different deities, check out my proposition in the Gods of Pathfinder thread..
The cloistered cleric gets the knowledge domain as a bonus, even if it isn't a domain of their god. So we can add improved BAB, and bonus domain to the list, and we can pick three.
Yep, but then we start the model with poor BAB. You know what... maybe we could start with poor BAB, one domain, and 4 picks... and have "extra domain" on the options list (cloistered clerics pick that twice, and skill points twice)?
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The cloistered cleric gets the knowledge domain as a bonus, even if it isn't a domain of their god. So we can add improved BAB, and bonus domain to the list, and we can pick three.Yep, but then we start the model with poor BAB.
Problem being?
And clerics of the war gods can take BAB boost twice, get fighter BAB and miss out on something else
Personally I like it
My take on the whole skill points and class skills problem would be to give 2 extra skill points to every class and overrule the 2 skill points for 1 rank of a cross-class skill for a 1-on-1 basis, but not touching the maximum rank rule to diffrentiate class and cross-class skills.
I agree that the rules should have been designed that way from the start. Another thread suggested that adding that option now, though, sort of steals the thunder from rogues and scouts in particular (who gain a 25% increase in skill points compared to the fighters' and clerics' 100% increase).
Instead, why not give the other classes some options, too (as the various alternate class features are already doing)? In fact, most of the options here can be used (and have been published for) other classes as well (swapping HD type for 2 skill points in many of the "Races of..." substitution levels).
Remember, ultimately we want to be able to select options that can exactly re-create the core rules. A blanket addition of skill points, while having a LOT to recommend it (and which arguably should have been done before publishing the core rules), doesn't do that now. (And at this point, I personally don't wish to have to retroactively add skill points to every monster and NPC in every module I run.)
Problem being? Clerics of the war gods can take BAB boost twice, get fighter BAB and miss out on something else... Personally I like it
Yeah, me too :)
Personally I like itYeah, me too :)
And that makes three of us :)
And Kirth, I did briefly see your post before it was eaten by the Pazio monster. Thankyou :)
Here's the updated base cleric:
* Hit Die: d6
* 2 skill points per level
* Poor BAB progression
* Proficiency with all simple weapons and light armour
* Access to one domain only
You may choose four of the following options to add to the base cleric (unless otherwise stated, each option may only be selected once):
* Increase hit die to d8.
* Gain 2 more skill points per level and two more class skills. This option may be selected twice.
* Improve BAB progression one step. This option may be selected twice.
* Gain medium and heavy armour proficiency, and shield proficiency (except tower shields).
* Gain access to another domain. This option may be selected twice.
This still allows us to make the PHB cleric, and brings us pretty close to the cloistered cleric, too.
I'm not sure about the domain selection here. It might have to be limited somewhat. By that, I mean that the cloistered cleric lets you have Knowledge as a free domain, not just any extra domain. This is easily solved by rewording and providing a short list of selectable domains (for the second time you select it).
I've just had another thought while looking at my PHB. Do we want to work base saving throws into this, while we're at it? Seems like we should.
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I wonder if we should seperate armor into medium and shields, and heavy as two categories, or start with light and shields, and then have medium and heavy as two.
But the concept of taking a cleric of health and vigor, as opposed to healing, and picking up d10 or even d12 hp, but next to nothing else seems pretty cool
As for spell diversity, I think it would be best to leave things nearly as open as they are now, and maybe clamp down a few restrictions based on god choice. Not sure what they would be off the top of my head, but a god of water would ban fire spells, like being good bans evil
Now to think of turn undead et al.
New power, Channeling
The cleric can channel the divine essence of their god a number of times per day = 3+charisma modifier, +1 per 5 levels
At creation the cleric can choose a bonus feat from the divine list, and fuel it with their channeling ability
New Feat:
Divine wrath (divine)
The cleric lashes out at the enemies of their deity, damaging, scaring, or humbleing them. (turn/rebuke). A gods enemies become part of their portfolio.
I will leave the spcifics out for now...
Oh and another thing we have been doing for a while now to make all casters more useful is you get bonus 0th level spells (if you get any) equal to your full casting stat bonus. A 16 wisdom gets a cleric 3 bonus 0th level spells.
Also a cleric can spontaneously cast any 0th level spell after reaching 3rd level.
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This still allows us to make the PHB cleric, and brings us pretty close to the cloistered cleric, too.
I'm not sure about the domain selection here. It might have to be limited somewhat. By that, I mean that the cloistered cleric lets you have Knowledge as a free domain, not just any extra domain. This is easily solved by rewording and providing a short list of selectable domains (for the second time you select it).
I've just had another thought while looking at my PHB. Do we want to work base saving throws into this, while we're at it? Seems like we should.
Maybe another domain of their god for 1 choice, or any other domain for 2 choices
[1]You may choose four of the following options to add to the base cleric (unless otherwise stated, each option may only be selected once):
* Increase hit die to d8.[2]This still allows us to make the PHB cleric, and brings us pretty close to the cloistered cleric, too.
[3]I'm not sure about the domain selection here. It might have to be limited somewhat. By that, I mean that the cloistered cleric lets you have Knowledge as a free domain, not just any extra domain. This is easily solved by rewording and providing a short list of selectable domains (for the second time you select it).
[4]I've just had another thought while looking at my PHB. Do we want to work base saving throws into this, while we're at it? Seems like we should.
1. Why not let 'em go for a d10, if they're willing to part with still more standard cleric-y goodness?
2. Yeah, I'm excited about the ability to produce both of them!3. Why not limit it by deity (most core gods get only like 3 or 4 domains anyway)? We could rule that any non-OGL domain has to be your base one, and bonus ones must be selected from the core rules deity list (for the god that most closely resembles the one in your campaign).
4. Does the cloistered cleric lose Fort as a good save? If so, let's definitely add this. Then maybe clerics of Olidammara could trade BAB for a good Reflex save...
Maybe another domain of their god for 1 choice, or any other domain for 2 choices
That's a pretty cool idea, being able to take a domain that's not one of your deity's... I'll have to think some more about potential for abuse here, though. This one seems like it might have the possibility of loopholes that I can't see right now.
1. Why not let 'em go for a d10, if they're willing to part with still more standard cleric-y goodness?
2. Yeah, I'm excited about the ability to produce both of them!
3. Why not limit it by deity (most core gods get only like 3 or 4 domains anyway)? We could rule that any non-OGL domain has to be your base one, and bonus ones must be selected from the core rules deity list (for the god that most closely resembles the one in your campaign).
4. Does the cloistered cleric lose Fort as a good save? If so, let's definitely add this. Then maybe clerics of Olidammara could trade BAB for a good Reflex save...
1) Good point, and mentioned earlier too. Should we let them goes so far as a d12? I think that's stepping on the barbarian's toes a little, but a d10 seems fine.
2) Ditto :)
3) Yeah, I think if we stick to the PHB domains for now, it'll make things easier. I also think that only the third domain might not have to be from your god's list. Then, like with the cloistered cleric, it represents some extra training you've had beyond the other clerics of your faith. For example, a cleric of the god of war might start with the War domain, then pick up Protection. This particular cleric has training as a combat medic, so he takes Healing as his third domain (which is not one of his god's regular domains). But yeah, we'll have to see how this changes things.
4) The SRD doesn't mention any changes to the cloistered cleric's saves. I was thinking that if you could pick up to two good saves, the you could build a wizardish cleric with poor saves, a standard cleric, a roguish cleric with high Reflex.
An idea mentioned earlier - and that I highly support - is giving the option of gaining martial weapon proficiency with your deity's favoured weapon without spending a feat on it. That is, as part of the list of add-ons to the base cleric.
I wonder if we should seperate armor into medium and shields, and heavy as two categories, or start with light and shields, and then have medium and heavy as two.
I think this is probably a good idea too. The cloistered cleric doesn't have shield proficiency, so the base should stay as it is, but I do agree that splitting the medium/heavy/shields option into three is a good idea.
We're starting to get a few options here now, and we've just split up one that was worth one "point" into three. We'll have to make sure we continue to balance these against each other.
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If we seperate the armors, then the power level is about the same as a single feat, if we keep them together they are more powerful.
Important if we add a feat :Extra clericy goodness: which lets you pick up another ability... I think we have exceeded this, in some cases, it becomes moot.
What is the thought on the channeling ability i put forth. All clerics get channeling, it replaces turn undead, then they get a bonus divine feat, which could be turn undead
If we seperate the armors, then the power level is about the same as a single feat, if we keep them together they are more powerful.
True. Good point. I'll have to have a closer look at the cloistered cleric later, with this in mind.
What is the thought on the channelling ability i put forth. All clerics get channelling, it replaces turn undead, then they get a bonus divine feat, which could be turn undead
I started typing a question about this, but I answered it myself. I understand now, you mean to say that all those feats out there that are powered by turn/rebuke undead attempts, would instead be powered by this Divine Channelling ability and Turn/Rebuke Undead (Divine Wrath) would be added as a divine feat. Right? I kinda like the sound of that.
I was looking at divine feats earlier, thinking that some of them looked pretty good and could probably replace turn/rebuke undead. I wasn't sure how to implement it, but your way is pretty elegant: all clerics can channel divine energy, and upon creation choose how they channel it (or what that channelling it does). Yeah, I like it.
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Oh and I think that every cleric should have 2 domains, and possibly a third or even forth
If they get X of:
Armor
BAB boost
HP boost
skills
domains
there is some serious giving up to get bonus domains, and you still only get 1 bonus domain spell per level, so you are only get a portion of the benefit
I am not opposed to treating the deities favored weapon as one category more favorable, martial become simple, and exotic become martial.
oooh, nifty extra ability choice idea (just hit me), probably goes with war, cleric levels count as fighter levels to meet prerequisites for fighter only feats...
Oh and I think that every cleric should have 2 domains, and possibly a third or even forth
If they get X of:
Armor
BAB boost
HP boost
skills
domainsthere is some serious giving up to get bonus domains, and you still only get 1 bonus domain spell per level, so you are only get a portion of the benefit
So, you think the base cleric should start with two? I think that's a reasonable argument. Only reason it was stripped to one is so that it's as low as it could go. I think once our list is complete, we can see what types of clerics we can make and see if starting with 1 or starting with 2 is better.
Oh, this also reminds me. Maybe - mostly because of balance/power issues - we should separate the skills out more. So that you can choose to have more skill points without more skills, and vice versa. I would only do this if it seems that 2 skill points and 2 extra class skills is worth more than, say, shield proficiency.
I am not opposed to treating the deities favored weapon as one category more favorable, martial become simple, and exotic become martial.
Cool :) That's a good way of putting it too, probably. However, some non-war-like deities might have an exotic weapon that they're clerics should know how to use, but not necessarily use that much. I think because we're limiting it to a single weapon, and you don't get to choose the weapon then the power isn't as great as if you could choose any weapon. And because it'll be a class feature, you'll have to give up something else to get it.
oooh, nifty extra ability choice idea (just hit me), probably goes with war, cleric levels count as fighter levels to meet prerequisites for fighter only feats...
Nice. I like it. I'm sure I've thought of it before, but again, didn't know how to implement it or what it should replace. Including these things seems good, because although some might be powerful, they're specific (weapon must be favoured byr your deity, you must have war domain to count cleric levels as fighter levels, etc.) and you have to give up something else in order to get them.
Another thought! Inspired by the fighter level stacking you mentioned, I just realised we could do that with several other classes. Like those Ascetic feats that let monk levels stack with other class levels for certain things. Maybe cleric and ranger levels could stack for favoured enemy bonus. Things like that. I'll have to check out those feats and think more about this.
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well in regards to breaking down skill, the question is aree we going for more powerful then feats, which is fine, or are we trying to build the cleric out of clusters of feats.
I think Shields and medium, then Heavy would be two seperate, and be good, perhaps for balance heavy should tack on the towershield too, not that much of a bonus
I thought about it more, and I think the war weapon stuff would be a feat, not a class feature.
so back to where we are at, plus some extra alla me, with crap formatting cause I am lazy after lunch
Base Cleric:
1d6 hp
poor BAB
Good Will saves
2 Skill points per level
2 Domains
Weapon Familiarity: Deity's favored weapon (martial weapons used as simple, exotic weapons used as martial)
Divine Channeling
Channeling Feat: Choose
Options
Choose 4
Medium Armor, Heavy Armor and Shield Proficency
Increase HD to d8 (choose a second time for d10)
Improved BAB
Improved Fortitude Saves
Improved Reflex Saves
Bonus Domain from deity's list
Bonus Domain not on deity's list (2 choices)
2 Extra Skill points per level, 3 Extra skills as class skills (chosen baased on deity)
I am lazy after lunch
I have a similar problem here right now. I'm sleepy because it's 3am.
I'll have a look over your post tomorrow after I get some sleep :)
I think Shields and medium, then Heavy would be two seperate, and be good, perhaps for balance heavy should tack on the towershield too, not that much of a bonus
Don't forget, we've got SRD precedent that Medium Armor + Heavy Armor + Shields = 2 skill points. Breaking up the armor/shields into 3 options eliminates the modular features we were shooting for. (And, really, who takes medium armor but not heavy armor?)
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Don't forget, we've got SRD precedent that Medium Armor + Heavy Armor + Shields = 2 skill points. Breaking up the armor/shields into 3 options eliminates the modular features we were shooting for. (And, really, who takes medium armor but not heavy armor?)
Exactly, so our Class Abilities are more powerful than feats, about on par with 3 minor feats, probably 2 decent feats
Exactly, so our Class Abilities are more powerful than feats, about on par with 3 minor feats, probably 2 decent feats
Yeah. But flaws (which give higher penalties than the benefits provided by a feat) create a precedent for a "bleeding off" of some usefulness from the character when you trade for more feats. Currently, if you take the flaw that prevents you from turning undead, you get one (1) feat in exchange. Dunno exactly where I'm headed with that yet, but it's worth thinking about.
How to we want to deal with spontaneous casting?
Domain spells only? Clerics with the healing domain get spontaneous curing that way. And druids in 3.5 already get spontaneous summon nature's ally, so it's not too big a stretch.