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Players rarely want Clerics in my gaming group -- at least at low levels -- and we obviously need the Turn or Rebuke Undead ability.
Now, I've always felt a Druid should be able to Turn Undead. Druids have more reason than many (if not most) Clerics to Turn; Priests of Boccob, Kord, Fharlangh have NO business Turning Undead, whatsoever! (Trading Wild Shape for Turn would be sufficient, I think.) But before I hijack my own thread I should mention that that's not an option in this particular campaign, so. . .
I've been trying to think of a way for an Arcane caster to Turn or Rebuke Undead. In desperation I pulled out the old Tome and Blood which hasn't been opened since I bought it about 5 years ago (I don't have PH2) and found Pale Master and True Necromancer.
So here goes, if my Arcane caster takes 2 levels in Pale Master (gaining the Animate Dead spell) would that be sufficient for him to then start leveling in True Necromancer, thereby having a completely Arcane spellcaster that can Rebuke Undead?
The Tome and Blood prereq's for True Necromancer include "the ability to cast Divine spells one of which must be Animate Dead." So the 2 questions a DM must consider are 1) whether or not the Animate Dead from Pale Master is Divine or Arcane and 2) whether or not "divine spells" (plural) is achieved with only one: "Animate Dead."
-W. E. Ray
I don't see why you need to multiclass in order to turn/rebuke as an arcane caster. If your DM feels that it's a necessary ability for you to have, he should be happy to come up with new variations of Disrupt Undead, Command Undead, Halt Undead, Undeath to Death and Control Undead. In fact, there's already quite a few ways for an arcane caster to "turn" undead (and arguably more effective than the cleric ability).
Just make it a feat. Seriously. Like so:
Turn/Rebuke
You have a reserve of power you can unleash to the bane or boon of a select group of creatures.
Prerequisite: Caster level 1st
Benefit: When you select this feat, you must choose a group of creatures (use the ranger's favored enemies list) with which this ability works. Additionally, you must choose whether you wish to be able to turn and destroy such creatures, or rebuke, command, and bolster them. Once you make this choice, you cannot change it. You may use this ability 3 times per day plus your Charisma modifier. Use your caster level for the purpose of determining the effects of this ability. This is a supernatural ability.
<More follows to the tune of the cleric's turn tables and such>
Special: You may select this ability more than once. Each time you choose it, you choose another group of creatures, and whether you wish to affect them in a beneficial (rebuke/command/bolster) or detrimental (turn/destroy) way. You use the same pool of turn/rebuke attempts for all uses of this feat.
* Paladins and certain other classes use their class level -3 to determine the effects of this feat.
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Thanks guys!
I'll certainly look at the Dread Necromancer. After taking a closer look at the True Necromancer requirements I see that the PC must have access to the Death Domain.
The DM doesn't say, "you must have..." but a party without a Cleric or Paladin often gets whomped by Undead. Greater Disrupt is a great spell for a scroll(considering the other 3rd levels); other than that there's not really much.
I don't think it would be good to make certain Class features into Feats, including Turn / Rebuke.
-W. E. Ray
The primary reason I suggested is because WotC has already done so, with Repel Aberration in the Eberron setting. All it does is give the Druid the Turn ability for Aberrations.
Now, you may want to exclude certain options (like, oh... humanoids?), or not, depending on the flavor of campaign you want. Or maybe you want to limit the options based on class like so:
Druid/Ranger: Aberrations, Animals, Elementals, Magical Beasts, Vermin, Undead
Cleric/Paladin: Aberrations, Elementals, *Infidels, Outsiders(Alignment Based), Undead
Warlock: Aberrations, Fey, Elementals, Outsiders(Alignment), Undead
Wizard/Sorcerer: Constructs, Dragons, Elementals, Magical Beasts, Outsiders(Alignment), Undead
Also, the main reason I made it such a flexible feat is I'm tired of several iterations of a feat being printed for each possibility (Ala metamagic, sudden metamagic, metamagic spell like ability, metamagic supernatural ability, etc...). Or in this case, Turn/Rebuke Undead, Turn/Rebuke Outsider, Turn/Rebuke Elemental... yeah, so not needed.
Anyway, I'm just saying there's precedent, and it wouldn't be particularly unbalancing.
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One reason to watch out for Arcane casters gaining Turn/Rebuke Undead is all those feats that are powered by Turn/Rebuke, particularly Divine Metamagic. It seems on first glance like it would be much more useful for a wizard (say) than it is for a cleric, and it's arguably overpowered for a cleric as it is.
One reason to watch out for Arcane casters gaining Turn/Rebuke Undead is all those feats that are powered by Turn/Rebuke, particularly Divine Metamagic. It seems on first glance like it would be much more useful for a wizard (say) than it is for a cleric, and it's arguably overpowered for a cleric as it is.
Eh. Well, Divine Metamagic doesn't scare me too much. First, there's errata that clarifies it applies only to divine spells. Second, a few freebie uses of metamagic don't strike me as terribly overpowering. Ways already exist for the arcane caster to get such things. Are there ways for it to be broken? Sure. Loopholes exist all over the place.
And the more I think about it, the more I like the idea that arcane casters can gain the ability to turn/rebuke at least certain kinds of creatures (like I listed above). I'm gonna give this a closer look in my own campaign (Artificers able to turn/rebuke constructs.. Oooo).
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Great, Xellan; please let us know in a future Thread how it works out. I'm initially leary of it -- Clerics suck at low to mid levels; the only thing they can do is Turn Undead and heal -- if you give Turn to another class, well...
I do like the idea of making Favored Enemy more attainable (and perhaps description malleable), though. Rangers don't rely on it exclusively as a Class feature and it makes sense that other character concepts should have it.
-W. E. Ray
Well it sounds like you guys have already hit on a solution. However I'll throw in my two cents nad say that I doubt not having turn undead will actually hamper the party that much. Undead tend to be weak for their CR in any case. Even without turning you should be able to handle them. Might be a tad tougher but all party compositions give up some strengths in return for other strengths.