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I apologize if this is the wrong place to post and if I seem to ramble. I’ve been DMing an Eberron AoW campaign since December, if not longer. Everything was going well until one of the PC’s, Davit, died at the end of “The Three Faces of Evil”. This is how the group looked after the adventure:
Ali-CG(human, Wiz 7)-Tainted*Retired
Davit-NG(human, Cleric of Dol Dorn 8)*Deceased
Perto-CG(human, Ftr 7)-Tainted*Deceased
Melinde-LG “NPC”(Pal6) *Deceased
After the death of Davit, two of the players we’ll call them Mer/Su, said they felt the adventure was to hard and wished some kind of compensation for dying it. I told them unfortunately characters die. Mer then ask permission to role up a new cleric, Conrad, who would kill the “tainted” player if they endangered the group. I of course said no to the killing of party members. But because of this Su wanted to retire Ali, because her taint was a “hazard” to the group.
Now skip ahead to today and “The Hall of Harsh Reflection”. The party is now is disarray. Conrad only tags along with the group to tell people the “evils” of Allustan. He says it’s Allustan’s fault that the characters died in past adventures. He goes to random and says that any on who deals with him will die. And that Allustan is a coward, because of events that took place at Blackwall Keep. He also refuses to help anyone in danger, and plots to kill Allustan the first chance he gets.
Then our new party rogue has decided to “hock” the green worm in a jar instead of taking it to Allustan’s friend. When the rest of party found out what he was trying all that was said was this, “The adventure is only a guide line, real players and DM’s make it up as they go”. After this comment, Conrad, sided with the rogue saying the worm is of no true importance to the group, and that it was probably only Allustan’s way of killing more people. And without the worm they can go there own way. Now the party is split. Two players who want nothing to do with Allustan or the worm. And two who wish to continue on with the adventure.
We tried gaming a bit more after this happened. When they arrived in town the party found itself stuck in a parade. When the chimera freed itself I described the scene to the party, and said “You notice as the crowd flees woman on the ground clutching her ankle and her child, she looks in terror at the beast and screams for help”. The cleric and rogue responded by saying, “It wasn’t there fault the woman came to the parade” and that it was none of their concern. They then left to find a “dealer” for the worm. Luckily, the druid and fighter stayed to save the day. It almost costed them both though.
Current group:
Catatonia-NG(elf, Druid 9)
Conrad-CG(human, Cleric of Dol Arrah 10)
Renee-CG(human, Rog 6)
Ironhide-CG(warforged, Ftr 9)
What should I do? Any help would be truly appreciated. Both the fighter and druid want to keep playing the adventure. They find it extremely fun. But the other two are making it difficult. I would say boot the trouble makers but it’s Mer’s “Conrad” and Su’s “Catatonia” house. And unfortunatly we can only game at their place.
Dude, that sucks. It sounds to me like you can try speaking with them out of game and if they really dont like the adventure, and refuse to go along with it a little, then you will have to find another place to play. On the other hand, maybe one of them would like to DM for a while, and you can sit back and play.
my two cents.
TS
Wrap up the campaign and play something else. The two 'troublemakers' aren't happy playing the campaign, and will ruin it for everyone else. Since you can't get rid of them, your only choices are to dissolve the group or change campaign.
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It's interesting looking at their professed alignments and their actual behaviour - they claim to be good, yet don't give a damn when innocents are attacked and want to sell a potentially higly dangerous item to the highest bidder. Truly lousy roleplaying (unfortunately, a cleric can get away with that in Eberron).
They aren't playing as a team, quite obviously. I guess the appropriate reaction depends on the feelings of the other players - do they (and you) want to carry on with the campaign or not. It's not really fair to let the minority ruin the enjoyment of the others. In that case, read the Riot Act to the players - you are all there to have fun, they are acting like selfish idiots and frustrating you and the other players, and they need to buck up their ideas or consider another hobby. There are always other places to play if the venue is a problem, and you think they will walk if you pick them up. If they are the sort of people to hold you to ransom because they have the facilities, you are best off out of it anyway. If they are good friends, however, maybe they will see the error of their ways.
They might try to get away with the "I'm only roleplaying my character" excuse, but that is always self-serving bullshit. They aren't even doing a good job of RP'ing Chaotic Good. And a game goes well when the PCs are cooperating and have shared goals. They seem to want to frustrate and annoy you - maybe it's personal after the deaths of their characters. You need to address this out-of-game. Disruptive players are the bane of a DMs life - I had one, he fortunately decided to leave the group, and things got so much better afterwards. Don't be afraid to lose this pair if they refuse to see sense.
If, on the other hand, no one is that bothered, I'd probably take Delericho's advice and play something else. But I wouldn't let the demise of the campaign go unremarked - you need to say something to make sure it never happens again like that.
Tell them a red dragon lands in front of them, roll initiative, end the campaign.
Muahahahahhaha
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If you decide to address this with the players, IF!, I would do it in front of the other players and make sure that the other players are on your side before hand.
I say "if" because it is the their house and your only place to game.
The 2 are being immature about the game and need to be called out.
FH
well, this is nothing to get personal or hard feelings about; basically it sounds like your players or characters are depressed or turning to a neutral alignment. While non heroic parties can be a greater challenge for a gm to motivate; it can be done. Since the players are in a city all kinds of adventures are possible; I suggest you run them in a side adventure of some sort that does not screw them over and has a nice reward; do this a few time and tie a few threads back to the adventure that failed to try to give new light or reasons for the party to try to reattempt the adventure. I can give several short adventure ideas is you dont have any, but really your anger is a gift you dont want to share with your players. If they dont like the campaign and dont want to do it; dont shove it down their throat; there are a million stories in this game; tweak, modify and rewrite so that you all can have a good fun time. Sounds like your all a bit burned out and dissappointed; I really suggest you do some simple task=reward oriented adventures to get the ball rolling again.
I always try to stress to my players that the game is really them against everyone else; good guys can make friends and allies they can depend on; nuetrals not so much; evils allies perhaps, but not ones you can trust.
One thing we dont know is the adventure hook you used; why are the pc's trying to attempt this adventure and what consequences follow if the bad guys are not stopped and what organizations might be for or against this task being completed.
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What Valegrim says is fair, if the problem is in-game, i.e. they don't like this particular set-up (though I don't see why they have to take away the game from the others who are enjoying it). But if the problem is outside the game, i.e. problems in the real world intruding such as personal animosities, then that needs to be addressed by talking to players.
It is worth pointing out that Valegrim has a very liberal approach to this sort of thing, i.e. PCs killing other PCs is perfectly OK in his game whereas you have banned it. In certain circumstances that is fine (not to my taste, but each to their own) if it is purely in-game. But setting up sub-plots to try and appease the other two seems more of a reward for thier bad behaviour than anything particulalrly constructive towards actually resolving the issues. I dunno - you have a potentially bad situation here, gaming-wise, and none of the options look great.
Top Priority: find another place. Even if you don't HAVE to leave, you want to have options. There was a post a while back with some real innovative places people used to find to play, including everyone chipping in and renting a storage unit if I remember correctly. Pitch in and rent a cheap hotel room for the evening if that's what it takes. See if your local gaming store has space available for playing. Grab a corner of Barnes and Noble. It's summer, sit in a park! (Unless you're in one of those places that rains all summer.... then sit under a picnic area.)
Once that's dealt with, tell Mer and Su that as they obviously aren't into the AP, you're going to finish it up with the other two and you'll give them a call when you're running something else. Then let your 2 remaining players each roll up a second character so that you're back to a party of 4 and game on!
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Top Priority: find another place. Even if you don't HAVE to leave, you want to have options. There was a post a while back with some real innovative places people used to find to play, including everyone chipping in and renting a storage unit if I remember correctly. Pitch in and rent a cheap hotel room for the evening if that's what it takes. See if your local gaming store has space available for playing. Grab a corner of Barnes and Noble. It's summer, sit in a park! (Unless you're in one of those places that rains all summer.... then sit under a picnic area.)
Once that's dealt with, tell Mer and Su that as they obviously aren't into the AP, you're going to finish it up with the other two and you'll give them a call when you're running something else. Then let your 2 remaining players each roll up a second character so that you're back to a party of 4 and game on!
The "rent a storage place" was a thing that several people brought up including F2K, who was a cop called to investigate a group playing in one at night. It is a viable option. Some other options are everyone chip in and buy a screen house/gazebo thingy and set up some lawn furniture inside, run an extension cord to a light and viola!
A lot of gaming stores have areas available to game in. Check it out.A library is good during their operating hours (usually not very late).
Someone in the group's basement, attic, storage shed, anywhere without too many bugs, some light, places for arses, and a flat surface.
Fast food joints are open until 10-11(some even 24hours), talk to a manager and agree to purchase some food and beverages. I am sure that if it isn't during a busy time/day that the manager will have no problem letting your group hole up in the corner somewhere. Especially if you guys are patronizing his business(don't bring your own drinks, and snacks, for instance)
Unfortunately you feel trapped because you feel like there is no other option but to put up with idiots or to have no place to game. Like was stated in Jurassic Park, life will find a way. You will find a way to game if you need to.
Bad gaming is sometimes worse than no gaming, trust me, because it can make you jaded. I still sometimes have horrible houserules rattle around in my head, mistaking them for actual rules. Don't let bad gaming effect your gaming.
Good luck.
FH
I would be remiss if I didn't provide this link: Save My Game: Irreconcilable Differences.
Anyway, it seems like you need to have a long talk about why people want to play and how they want to play. Judging by the 'Real players and DMs make it up as they go along' remark, your mutinous players may not like the idea of APs at all. If you cannot resolve it, you may be looking for new players, and a new place to play.
It's not possible that their house is the ONLY place you can play. Most convienient, sure, but not the only. Other people in this thread have had some good suggestions on that front. I particularly like the suggestion of a storage unit. I don't know how legal that is, but if the climate in your area agrees, it seems like a great idea. You could even leave the maps & minis and other gaming paraphenalia set up, because you don't need your kitchen table back the next day.
As for finding new players, the best short term solution may be to have each of the remaining players roll an extra character. You may find the game works better with just three people at the table. Otherwise, you can start trying to recruit other friends into the game.
What Valegrim says is fair, if the problem is in-game, i.e. they don't like this particular set-up (though I don't see why they have to take away the game from the others who are enjoying it). But if the problem is outside the game, i.e. problems in the real world intruding such as personal animosities, then that needs to be addressed by talking to players.
It is worth pointing out that Valegrim has a very liberal approach to this sort of thing, i.e. PCs killing other PCs is perfectly OK in his game whereas you have banned it. In certain circumstances that is fine (not to my taste, but each to their own) if it is purely in-game. But setting up sub-plots to try and appease the other two seems more of a reward for thier bad behaviour than anything particulalrly constructive towards actually resolving the issues. I dunno - you have a potentially bad situation here, gaming-wise, and none of the options look great.
Agreed. You need to assess if this is an ingame or out of game problem. If the former, then Valegrim has it spot on and it can be handled in a multitude of ways through various plots and twists in the game.
If it's out of game, trying to handle it in game is a bad idea. To me, that's turning a blind eye to the situation and even encouraging that kind of behavior by allowing it to continue in your game. The game needs to take a break so that the players, not their PCs, can be dealt with.
If you're comfortable with it, perhaps you could share a bit more information as to why your gaming locations are limited to their house(s)? At any rate, I agree with the above posters that there have to be more places, and you need to find one.
Finally, their alignments are completely out of whack. Not caring about the woman in the street? Arguably neutral by itself (if they were trying to save their own skins and didn't want to stop and help). However, the way you described it made it sound as if they nonchalantly walked away to go find a merchant. That makes it evil. They're putting self-interest above others to the extent of knowingly causing harm. In D&D, that's clear cut evil.
It's only compounded by the nature of what they're trying to sell. Regardless of how else you manage this problem, I would point this out as an example of how the alignment system works in D&D.
I don't think that, out of a group of five, two should dictate the actions of everyone else just because they're immature.
Someone saying "the published adventure is just a guideline and a good DM should be able to make it up as they go along" sounds like a borderline passive-aggressive way of saying,"I do what I want with my character and if you don't want to deal with it, you're obviously a bad DM". These characters are obviously revenge for killing off their last characters, which is just immature. Find someplace else, find some other friends that might want to learn how to play, do whatever it takes.
hehe as the LOB's have pointed out; it is very true; i believe that a gm is only to set the scene and scenario and if players want to kill each other that is their business and has nothing to do with the narrator; it is just a viewpoint thing. I think a gm should promote gaming and interesting scenarios and of course interact with the players to solve any problems; but stay out of any player to player issues other than to modify language or basic table gaming rules like no personal attacks or being intentionally mean, crude, lude or whatever. When I gm, I just try to represent the npcs and the world, environment and such and try to weave threads into the game that the players might want to pick up and run with, to do this, I try to stay informed about what the players want from their characters and what intersting way they might develop. In the past, I have written quite a bit about player-gm interaction and character development and how certain gaming tools can aleviate player-gm frustration; but it takes work, desire, and commitment to the game and not everyone is ready for that sort of thing; some people just want to sit down and have a few hours of relaxation after a stressful week and not put much thought into their characters; that to is fine.
We all have our own styles or are developing our styles. I take it as a personal challenge to make sure I promote a healthy environment in the game that excites the players. Lol; lately I have even been giving counceling sessions on the side as my players have gotten lazy over the years. For instance, I am running an adventure where the players are complaining it is to hard; that the game is only set up one fight a day, characters need to rest after only playing about two hours of game time inside a dungeon; blah, blah, blah, other sniveling stuff; so, I stopped the game and we all talked it out. It happens, I showed by point of veiw; the players kill everything in sight and only one character has dropped to zero and is back up; the players ignored many clues; I restated all the clues they ignored and they looked a bit sheepish; I pointed out they have gone down many hallways and rooms and only at one time ever checked for secret doors or hidden anything; they have not even tried to creep about in this evil guy occupied dwarven hold; they are striding boldly along an open terrace with torches blazing; hmm; how far away can a torch be seen anyway; ect; ect; to me it was just lazy and poor playing on the part of the players; their complaint was that they have done three equal level fights that day and one cr-2 fight that day and tried to rest and could not; well they tried to rest in the middle of a main passageway after killing a lot of guys and kept running into roving patrols out looking for them; so; the question becomes how do you handle this situation; i understand the players point of view; they are wounded; they are very low on spells, it is 10am game time in the morning; but I think my points are valid; the players are not facing the challenge of the game and are ignoring everything but combat situations. I am unwilling to surrender the integrity of the game and the scenario; I am not going to "wimp out my adventure" as I have have a copy of each of their character sheets and they have several solutions to overcome each problem if they only try. keep in mind that most of my players have been in my game for 10; 15; or more years; these things happen.
so; how to handle this impass; well, after reading many, many novels it seems like this is the moment of an intervention; this sort of thing happens in the Dragonlance novels all the time; someone like Fizban or something shows up and points something out. Well, the pc's have already cut a deal with the spirits in the area of the dwarven crypts; so I will have a spirit they have already been interactive with tell them something like; many of the bad guys are headed this way; you should hide; the party will probably say; where? then the spirit will say; a gnome used to live in these passageways and point; many times we would look for him and not find him; their are probably hidden passageways; use your magic to seek them out; i and my kindred will try to confuse the (bad guys) to give you some time.
Sheesh, it is a dwarven hold; I put secret things all over the darn place. I just think that people have so much going on in their lives that they are not focused on the challenges of the game; as gm; I have to account for this and make changes, but keep the scenario fun for both them and myself.
hmm; if players can only think of killing each other; it probably means they are not scared enough of the bad guys or other threats. You might try to make the players scared to kill each other and the consequences could be worse; try keeping them being chased by some bad guys they cannot overcome, but maybe be able to pick one or two off before they run; the pcs should team together and spend time running instead of killing each other. might work; has worked for me in the past.
It's interesting to see the different perspectives on this.
I'vew never had the problem and would happily play in their place but I am sure I'm nowhere near you.
As a DM, I'm not very good at following published APs, in fact I've never finished one. I tend to let my players wander and if they want to break off and do their own thing I don't make much of it, although I unleash all manner of horror onto the world when they fail to stop the plots my villains hatch.
I plan a lot for the next adventure and a minimum for the far horizon, although I alwasy have a good idea where I think the context is going. I find that's the least waste of time for me. So I guess I would let them drift off the AP.
For fun, I would see where we could take the hostilities in the group, maybe a little fratricide could be encouraged. And I would definately give them some NPCs for whom I would feign fondness in hopes that they would channel their hostility against me into violence against my adorable NPCs.
But most of all, only you are in a good position to really understand what's going on with these players. As other's have more or less mentioned, DMs need to be hyper-aware of what the players want, be able to guess why, and to find some way to satisfy it with good storytelling.
Good luck dude.
Contributor
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Someone saying "the published adventure is just a guideline and a good DM should be able to make it up as they go along" sounds like a borderline passive-aggressive way of saying,"I do what I want with my character and if you don't want to deal with it, you're obviously a bad DM". These characters are obviously revenge for killing off their last characters, which is just immature. Find someplace else, find some other friends that might want to learn how to play, do whatever it takes.
QFT
The problem I see is that you have two players who want to disrupt the game for their own selfish reasons, and two who want to play the game. It's fine to run an open game if that is what people want and you as DM are up to it and want to do that as well. But neither yuo nor the two other players should be hostage to that. It appears that you had established the parameters of the campaign and they knew what they were getting into. Now they are demanding that those parameters be changed. There are many possible motivations for this, but it doesn't matter. If they are preventing you and the other two players from having fun, they are being selfish.
The idea that a good DM should A) be able and B) be willing to modify their adventure to ANY and ALL player behaviour is ridiculous. There are many types of players, many types of styles, and many types of DMs. And in this case it appears that the players are not simply going their own way, they are intentionally trying to disrupt the story.
I can't advise in detail how to deal with this because I don't know you or your players, or what your non-gaming relationship is. But these are players I would not want to play with.
My suggestion is to talk to them out of game. I would offer the following options; 1) they be reasonable in their expectations, 2) you dissolve the game and play with someone else, or 3) with the consent of the other players, you run the game their way, but with the caveat that if they can do anything and expect you to respond, you can respond with anything too. After all, good players should be able to handle any situation as much as a good DM. This gives you license to hit them with nasty stuff if they act like jerks. And if it comes down to that and you agree these terms, then don't punish them for going off the path, punish them when they act like jerks. And don't kill them, hit them with level-drainers, equipment-sunderers/disenchanters, permanent ability drain etc.
I don't normally advocate punishing players. The problem I see is one of agreed expectations. Make sure everyone is on the same page first. Make sure the expectations are clear. If the players continue to unreasonably and purposefully disrupt the game by rejecting the established parameters, then they may need to gain a little perspective to realize it's a two-way street.
My hope is that explaining this to them this way would be sufficient. If it is not, my personal choice would be to take option 2.
Craig Shackleton
The Rambling Scribe
PS: Please note that I in no way am intending to dis DMs or players who's agreed preferred style is more open-ended and/or includes more PvP conflict. It's intended to dis players who want to wreck everyone else's game for their personal amusement.
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One thing I learned from dealing with monkey wrenchers (I had one guy who used to make a hobby of it, and I went with it to learn and expand myself)...it's like Micky Spillane (I think) said--when it gets dull, always have a guy ready to kick the door in and try to kick the detective's ass.
I always try to go into any session with a team of insane guys ready to spring on the party at any time it gets dull.
Some mental cases that you KNOW weren't in the published adventure...
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I agree Heathy!
Monte Cook said that you should open every session with a fight if you can. Even if you have to struggle to justify it. Like having someone kick in the door and start shooting.
Gets the players focused, excited, and ready to play.
I'm hitting my group with a lulu of an opener tonight!
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Another thing--I'm not too familiar with every nuance of the AoW, but you COULD have a whole village go Kyuss Spawn and start marauding. There were some really tight posts about that about a year ago; I don't remember where they are or anything.
I've had somebody before go "I'M not saving the DAMOSEL IN DISTRESS. It's not my problem."
It's all good. Cos now you gotta save your own sorry hide from the village of the wormy damned, byotch!!!
After reading this thread I feel blessed that my group is a generally agreeable bunch. They have plenty of arguments in-game, but they're all in character arguments. They play their characters as a fairly tight bunch in-game, but with arguments like a family would. It just so happens that my group is pretty much all related to each other either by blood or marriage so that's no surprise.
They also don't feel the need to disrupt the general flow of the game, but I also put extra work into designing elements that focus on each of the characters. I have an overarching plot line, but it's malleable not rigid. The party can go off and do their own thing that isn't necessarily related to the plot line (though I often try to integrate the new stuff to make it more powerful), but I also frequently ask them what they intend to do in the future so that I have an idea of how to go about designing the next adventure or integrating something from Dungeon. I'm not great at off-the-cuff design work if they go off the beaten path so I need to have enough of an idea in advance of what they want.
It works out well for my group. It sounds like the OP is not quite as fortunate.
I'd like to point out that "Su" was the Druid-Who-Stayed to try and help the woman and child. While she might have been one who complained at the beginning, it does seem that she has found her niche.
I do agree with the previous posts as to the misplaying of alignments. Chaotic Good is not giving a damn about the law when trying to do good things. Such as the Peace-Tie law that might be in a town. If a raider is attacking a helpless woman and child a chaotic good person would say, "Forget the law, I got to save those people!" Then rip the sword out of his scabbard and attack. Or... had a fake peace-tie in place as a just in case measure.
As for the true alignment played, I'd go with Chaotic Neutral or Neutral Evil. CN would be "Not my problem, I don't want to deal with it." NE would be "It doesn't benefit me. As a matter of fact there is a good chance doing that will get me hurt, so (sing song voice) I'm not going to do it. Now where was that merchant?"
I've found that when you start an Adventure Path, you have to make it clear that an AP is NOT a campaign. A campaign is like Drew Carey's "Who's Line Is It Anyway". The DM provides scenarios and the PCs respond to them in the manner that is appropriate to their character in the context of the scenario, moderated (hopefully) by a "filter" if neccessary to keep things fun for other players. Sometimes the scenarios string together in a sort of cohesive line, sometimes they dont. It is the PCs themselves that provide an anchor through the "show".
An AP is a play, Broadway baby. A DM as the basic script, he knows when this happens, when that happens, and who it happens to. The PCs are acting out important roles in the script, but it is ultimately the script that anchors the show in an AP.
You need to make it clear that for an AP to be fun, players need to "ease up" a little if they have a penchant for Cartmanish "Screw you guys, Im going home" behavior.
I've found my wife tends to run APs, even when she makes them up herself entirely from scratch. She has a long term plot, a specific villain who's plans we start foiling from the beggining, and specific things we will find/encounter along the way to aid us against him. Which is aweseome, I've always enjoyed her games. Me? I've just finished playing AoW, and we hit our summer break of my DMing ST. We think Shackled City might be something for the summer, but I'm more interested in a "Dungeoneering" campaign, where the PCs don't have a great grand plot to participate in, they just want to travel the world, explore dungeons, and become rich and powerful.
Babble done, back to your thread.
What should I do? Any help would be truly appreciated. Both the fighter and druid want to keep playing the adventure. They find it extremely fun. But the other two are making it difficult. I would say boot the trouble makers but it’s Mer’s “Conrad” and Su’s “Catatonia” house. And unfortunatly we can only game at their place.
I think its time to halt the game and figure out what th problem is and how everyone wants to resolve it. Some players died - well thats always a bit rough but its not neccisarly something that a DM can readily fix. Time to confront the players with what they expect from an adventure because one in which they can't die does not sound like something your looking to run - and if you put it like that it may dawn on them that its not actually what they want either. Takes a lot of the thrill out of the game if your basically in GOD mode.
Alternativly the players may be frustrated by how rail roady the AP is. If thats the case then some ground rules may be in order. Concede that the Ap is rail roady - on the up side its loaded with some fantastic adventures. Some truely epic stuff, Thats what you get from allowing a bit of rail roading. Players that refuse to ever be led to the adventure end up with DMs that don't have an adventure for them to play. Unless your a wiz at running adventures by the seat of your pants that can make for some pretty dull gaming. Hence I think the players need to be clued in on the fact that there is not going to be much of a game if they won't play.
If their still to frustrated to continue with this then it may be time to figure out what you want to do. You can all take a break for a bit and then resume the AP in a better frame of mind. You can hand the reins over to another player or you can try and continue on without the frustrated players. None of these are best case options - however putting them on the table allows the frustrated players to think about what it is thats going on. It may be that once they have a chance to consider the varous alternitives they'll realize that they in fact do want to continue to play.
Another thing--I'm not too familiar with every nuance of the AoW, but you COULD have a whole village go Kyuss Spawn and start marauding. There were some really tight posts about that about a year ago; I don't remember where they are or anything.
I've had somebody before go "I'M not saving the DAMOSEL IN DISTRESS. It's not my problem."
It's all good. Cos now you gotta save your own sorry hide from the village of the wormy damned, byotch!!!
Yah, that was what I was thinkin in my second post. Let the worm apocalypse come. What good is it if now and then a team of heroes don't fail and the evil plans actually hatch.
I know when I was a player in a Hero system campaign we did some monkey wrenching and took it to the brink. Our GMs last warning was enough, finally, to get us going. Hmmm, what woulda happened?
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Well I decided to wrap up the game yesterday. But as I did it took an interesting turn. During the night Conrad, and his thief friend La'ok are approached by Mia, an acquaintance of Conrad’s from the church. She asks if they would accompany her and a few other’s to an upcoming opera. They both graciously accepted.
Well before anything else happened, they met with leader the order, Salxar. They brought up the fact they thought that Allustan was behind everything. And that the church should bring him in for questioning. Salxar said that the church would need more evidence and for them to keep him posted. They than presented him with the worm in jar. Conrad stood up and said “Here’s your proof. Allustan was having us deliver this to friend it town. I believe this friend to actually be a necromancer, or someone of that sort.” Salxar asked if they would leave the worm with him so that he and others in the church could study it. Of course before they would give the worm over, they haggled free room and board out of Salxar.
Well fast forward a bit, and the two are now sitting in the opera with Mia, a few other church members...Oh and Mia’s friend and , a beautiful dark-skinned woman with emerald eyes, Ilthane. As the night came to an end Conrad and La’ok wound up at a local tavern sharing drinks with Mia and Ilthane. As this progressed Conrad brought up the recent events in Diamond Lake. He then asked the two ladies their opinion on the events. Mia, after glancing over to Ilthane, brought up that she thought the church is now corrupt and Allustan and Salxar are behind it. Well this shocked Conrad and La’ok, but at the same time brought a smile to their faces. Mia than produced documents and other items that linked the church to Diamond and to Allustan. Also documents that linked Allustan to other notable names in Diamond lake.
Well this enough proof Conrad and La’ok. But before they would do anything they asked how to handle the church. Ilthane tells them not to worry about the church. That she and Mia had a plan to overthrow the current leadership, and for them to focus on capturing and if needing to do so kill Allustan. Well with a grin, as big as California, Conrad asked before he take up this mission, he be given the title of “Grand Inquisitor”. And also be given to the power to appoint his own inquisitorial squad. As well as the power to use any means necessary to accomplish his goal. O f course Ilthane agrees and gets Conrad the necessary documents to prove his authority
Well the next day Conrad approaches the other members of the party about Allustan. Catatonia and Ironhide reluctantly agree to follow Conrad and La’ok. Mostly just because they trust Allustan, and want to make sure no harm comes to him.
Now comes a point I wasn’t to sure of. I thought it a bit much on my part. Even though it pained me to change things so much, I had to make sure that Allustan would die. But I knew with Catatonia and Ironhide in the group, they would make the save. So As Catatonia was shopping before they left to Diamond Lake, I played out an entire scenario that wound up with her being replace with a Greater Doppleganger.
Well after gathering everything they need the group head out to Diamond Lake. The first night of the trip the party was attacked by 3 bandits. Well the battle came to a quick end. Conrad had killed to 2 of them using harm. While decapitating the third. After the combat though, Conrad gathers the bandits together and lops off their heads. Of course I’m looking confused at this action. But I’m assured there’s a reason behind this. Well finally by late afternoon the party arrives at Diamond Lake. The group proceeds to the center of town, and Conrad goes to find large poles. He than impales the heads on the poles, and announces to the town, “That this is what happens to anyone how gets in the way of the Grand Inquisitor and his mission”. Well after all this the crowd is horrified and calls go out for the sheriff and militia. Well after a few minutes the local authorities arrive. And it looks like it’ll get ugly when Conrad whips out documents saying that his authority overrides that of either the sheriff or militia. All the sheriff can do in this case is ask that the heads be taken down. Of course Conrad says that’s not going to happen, but that if the sheriff wishes he may do it himself.
The party left the crowd of horrified onlookers, and headed on to Allustan’s. Well they enter his home and find him in the back of the house. Reading and doing research over the green worms. Conrad greets the old man and said “Allustan, my order has sent me to fetch you. They have questions that only you can answer and you must come with us”. Allustan simply waved Conrad off saying, “Unfortunately I can not come with you. I have lots of research to finish and I think I’ve stumbled onto the cause of these foul worms!” Well at this point Conrad and La’ok brandished their weapons and said “Unfortunately, you must. By order of the church you are under arrest”. Conrad went slowly and pulled out the warrant. Allustan came closer to read, but turned away and went back to his book. At this point Conrad flat-bladed the old man sending him tumbling into a table, spilling his tea.
Well the party rolled initiative, everyone rolling higher than poor Allustan (I rolled a 1). Well Catatonia decides to hold. Conrad ans La’ok of course burst into the room maces and swords swinging. Buy the end of their turns Allustan is beaten to an inch of his life. Allustan slowly goes to remove something from his robe, and at this point the room erupts into a pillar of flame. Conrad and La’ok are stunned, they look and find Catatonia in door finishing up a Flame Strike spell.
Well to end this, the party returned to find things had changed in Stormreach. Ilthane was now the head of Conrad’s order. The local authorities arresting Salxar and anyone how still followed him. Conrad was commended by the new head of the church, as well as the local lords for quelling the evil threat.
Now my players wants me to continue this adventure. Conrad loves the new authority he wields and now wishes to participate in the upcoming “Champion Games”. Catatonia, wants to find out what really happened to her character. Should I continue or finish up the game in the next week? How would you handle it? Also this hasn’t come yet, but Conrad’s alignment is listed as CG. And to the player he hasn’t done anything wrong. But to be He’s playing more as CN if not NE. What’s your opinion?
I fear that giving a troublesome player real in-game power is an invitation for even more trouble, and the grisly killing and beheading of the bandits is the first taste of that. It might be that the player uses this authority to bully the game in the direction that caters to his whims. Try to hold him on a firm leash by using your NPC superiors in the church, otherwise the whole thing might get out of hand real quick.
Did you talk to the players about your view of the game, or did you just decide to let it run its course? I would still ask your players how they want to game, and you have to decide if you want that, too. If the ideas for the game are too different, better stop it.
In the end, it is your decision. But don´t continue a game you don´t have fun with.
Stefan
Conrad is CN at best, and quite possibly some type of Evil at this point. I agree that granting power to a troublesome player is the wrong thing to do. The better thing to do is figure out why he's troublesome and deal with the root of the problem, or find some other way to appease him in game that doesn't involve making him the center of attention all the time (or otherwise giving him the tools to destroy the game).
My opinion remains thtat you need to find somewhere else to play and go on with the game with the people who are interested, either letting them run multiple characters, using DMPCs, tailoring the game to a smaller party, or finding some new players if possible.
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While talking to Mer he stated the following issues. "The problem is the fact that in the game and all other D&D-esque games, that the PC's are always ways being bothered by NPC's to save the day. Why don't the villagers for once save themselves? Why is that I has to risk my charater's life for people I don't care about? Why do I have to be a slave to the story instead of doing what I really want? Maybe I don't want to save this town? Heck, the shopkeep ripped my character off the first day I arrived. Maybe I want the town to burn for his misdeeds."
His big thing and Renee's also is they want the story/game to be about themselves. They want the spotlight forthemselves only. And if they have to be involved with the story it has to be there way. They personally think the actions of Conrad were just and fair. "Why wouldn't a good character show his authority?"
Meanwhile the other two players are just happy to game though. It's the one time of the week they get to have fun. So they'll follow the Mer ans Renee around no matter what.
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"Why don't the villagers for once save themselves? Why is that I has to risk my charater's life for people I don't care about?"
I know what my answer to that would be: "Who do you plan to get to DM that? I'm not interested in running it." But you'll have to make you own choice about how you respond.
If you and your players are enjoying the way the game is going, you should definitely do more of what you have been doing. If you aren't enjoying yourself, though, you have no obligation to run something out of some sense of duty to your friends.
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"Why don't the villagers for once save themselves? Why is that I has to risk my charater's life for people I don't care about?"
I know what my answer to that would be: "Who do you plan to get to DM that? I'm not interested in running it." But you'll have to make you own choice about how you respond.
If you and your players are enjoying the way the game is going, you should definitely do more of what you have been doing. If you aren't enjoying yourself, though, you have no obligation to run something out of some sense of duty to your friends.
And see I think that this is my main problem. I feel completely obligated to run the game. Through better or worse(wow I just compared my game to marriage).
Personally I'm not big on running evil campaigns. So if anything, what I want to do is the last day of the "Champions Games". I'll have the event go straight to Hell. I'll just unleash the Ulgurstata and have an army of wights decend upon the PC's and the town.Now as for finding other places to game. Unfortunately for the time being Mer's house is the only place to game. I don't work due to health issues and to be totally honest my friends are cheap skates are heart. So renting a place is out of the question. As for gaming in the park, There night owls. And the Sun+me right now equals hospital time.
And unfortunately there are no local gaming stores in my town. the closest one in 400 miles away. And business in my town look down on D&D, "Cause it's the devil"! Heck I kicked out of an IHoP for gmaing on night. They complained my friends and I were tainting the children. Hell, they had a Harry Potter book burning a few years ago.
So people who do game usually keep to themselves. Makes me feel like I'm in some sort of secret gaming brotherhood. If Renee's wife didn't hate us gaming we'd play there. That or if I owned my place.
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And business in my town look down on D&D, "Cause it's the devil"! Heck I kicked out of an IHoP for gmaing on night. They complained my friends and I were tainting the children. Hell, they had a Harry Potter book burning a few years ago.
...heck with those players I unfortunately can't argue against the negative perception. For my 2 cents, I'd say the leader of your party is probably heading if not already arrived at LE.
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I once had a player in game that I gave a bit too much power/status to. He ran rampant with it. In one town he had an inquisition, going from person to person detecting alignment. Anyone who was not of good alignment was deemed evil and killed.
I resolved this by having a lynch mob come after him. Seeing as how he was quite powerful at this point, the mob failed and all the members were either put to death or made slaves. This gave the player a false sense of security, which was what I was hoping for.
Shortly after this an assassin began following him, waiting for just the right time to attack. After it was all over and done with, the PC lay broken and bleeding, the assassin told him who hired him. The PCs underling, who was looking to advance in power/status. The underling eventually became a very powerful influence in the church and a recurring villian for the party.
The point of all this is that you should be very careful handing out power/status to disruptive characters. And be sure to remind them that "with great power comes great enemies."
It never ceases to amaze me when groups find themselves in trouble when dealing with stories like this that the OP has explained. It's moot now in this case, and you have heard me preach to this effect before, but i'll do it again here:
This group suffers from not being clear on the *type* of game they are playing. It is obvious that some members of the group are comforatable sticking with a published adventure and some want to deviate from the "plot" of that published adventure. It is just as important to be unified on the type of game you are playing as it is outlining house rules (or at least verbally agreeing) like the OPs example of the party not being able to kill one-another. That is an important agreement...equally important are expectations on perceived metagame limitations. If the group wants to stick with a published adventure, lay it out from the get go.
As ever,
ACE (in Boston on business!)
And see I think that this is my main problem. I feel completely obligated to run the game. Through better or worse(wow I just compared my game to marriage).
Personally I'm not big on running evil campaigns. So if anything, what I want to do is the last day of the "Champions Games". I'll have the event go straight to Hell. I'll just unleash the Ulgurstata and have an army of wights decend upon the PC's and the town.
If you feel obligated to run the game, then it sounds to me that you don´t enjoy it. That is an alarm sign if I´ve ever seen one. Talk to your players about what they want, what you want, and try to work out a compromise. Evil campaigns are not easy to pull off, and if you don´t like them, tell your players and don´t do it.
Ending the game the way you are planning sounds to me to be a surefire way to create hard feelings for everyone.
Now as for finding other places to game. Unfortunately for the time being Mer's house is the only place to game. I don't work due to health issues and to be totally honest my friends are cheap skates are heart. So renting a place is out of the question. As for gaming in the park, There night owls. And the Sun+me right now equals hospital time.
And unfortunately there are no local gaming stores in my town. the closest one in 400 miles away. And business in my town look down on D&D, "Cause it's the devil"! Heck I kicked out of an IHoP for gmaing on night. They complained my friends and I were tainting the children. Hell, they had a Harry Potter book burning a few years ago.So people who do game usually keep to themselves. Makes me feel like I'm in some sort of secret gaming brotherhood. If Renee's wife didn't hate us gaming we'd play there. That or if I owned my place.
All these points combined make it very hard to come up with alternative solutions. Your town is a hell-hole the way you describe it. (burning books? Welcome back to the dark ages) So, as long you are stuck there, try to make the best of it for all participants.
Stefan
I have a small suggestion. Whatever you decide to do with your game, read DM of the Rings to lighten your DM's heart and remind you that you're not alone.
I am sorry that you have to live in a town with such narrow minded fundamentalists...I take it you cannot just leave the town and start a new life at a place where you can live freely and play D&D as you like.
But if you really want to go on with this campaign, your egocentric player (Mer I think) couldn't have acted better. Your campaign is nearly on track again. So the "Inquisitor" will go back to the free city, the greater Doppelganger in his party will try to kill him and his friends (Loris payed Zyrxog way before Ilthane could compromise the party, so Zyrxog still tries to fullfil his contract). Your Inquisitor will go after the Doppelgangers (and free the replaced friend), later against Zyrxog and he will know that Loris Raknian is the "true" evil behind this. Either the inquisitor will try to have him arrested before the games, then Ilthane or one of her minions will take over the Champion's Games and the ritual. The player will enter the games and maybe also search for the Apostolic Scroll (if not...ok then it is the Apostel and the Kyuss Cleric in the end). In the final fight, the Ritual is started and Ilthane will show her true face, maybe bringing Loris Raknian back into the game...now your selfish "Inquisitor" will hopefully see how deep he maneuvered his A... into trouble and that he was a pawn all along (the Ironie in this: by doing what he wanted he did more wrong than he could have ever imagined). So let him save the free city by killing the Apostel, if he just goes after Loris Raknian and Ilthane, who cares, the city will have thousands of Whights as inhabitants now, your PCs will have to go. I gues Mer will go after Ilthane who destroyed Diamond Lake and taunts the PC for falling into her trap, they kill her in front of the Whispering Cairns and are lured inside (maybe talk to one of the other players, that he(she should have a look inside to find the new passage). Lured by treasure, they go in, but in the trap they find Allustan in stasis, saved by the Wind Dukes, as they take steps to save the world themselves, and for this they have to set all wrongs right. Allustan tells them, that he forgives your PCs and sends them off to Menzorian, not to save the village, but to save their own sorry hides. Voila, Campaign back on track, your egocentric players humbled for their behaviour and hopefully seeing that there are bigger things than their own needs.
If Mer still wants to do, what he likes....well there will be more and more undead in the world who will make everyone's life miserable, and as they might have the rod of seven parts now, they also face attacks by lots of devils...I think you are creative enough, and if Mer gets, what he likes, why should not the world also get it.
Sorry for the long post, hope I could give you some ideas to set everything right.