When I start the Rise of Runelords Adventure Path, I will introduce a very unpopular house rules. No raising allowed. It has always irked me that dying in D&D is taken so lightly, because of the fact that you can easily (and in 3rd ed, cheaply) be resurrected. No more. Still, it is a dangerous game, and the adventure paths has always been lethal (as the various obituaries thread cleary show). Therefore, I will be introducing some kind of action point/hero point/fate point system.
I have taken a look at the AP-system in Unearthed Arcana, but it was a tad more complex than I initially wanted it to be. Have anyone tried this with luck? Or have their own system they would care to share?
When I start the Rise of Runelords Adventure Path, I will introduce a very unpopular house rules. No raising allowed.
You may want to give some thought to how you will handle the huge number of "save or die" effects at higher levels (when the game assumes resurrection will be available). One house rule I like is essentially: any "save or die" effect instead drops you to -1 hit point. That way, there's a chance your friends can save you (or even that you can stabilize yourself).
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We have used a simplified system of action points in our campaign for the past four months or so. I like them. Our DM, collectively with his players, decided that one AP per character level, i.e. 7 APs at 7th level, 8 at 8th, etc. was too much and we decided on 5 per level. They are not overpowered, generally only used to add 1d6 to any d20 roll, and have come in handy more than once. One important aspect to consider, when used to gain use of a feat that a PC doesn't currently have, remember that the PC in question only has that feat for one round. For instance, my barbarian PC, when out of rages for the day can use an AP to take the feat "Extra Rage" but doesn't gain multiple rages, only 1 in that instant. It lasts the normal amount of rounds, but he only receives one rage overall.
In practice, the action point system has proven to be very simple although I would be concerned that it may not prevent deaths from occurring as often as you may think. Rolling 1d6 extra on a save doesn't mean much when the PC rolls a 3 on his d20.
Perhaps lower level raising spells may not be available in your world, only a wish or a full resurrectino can restore the life of a lost PC. That way, death and any subsequent raising will take a considerable time and/or resource expenditure while still being available for a PC that a player has played from 1st to 17th level and really enjoys.
You may want to give some thought to how you will handle the huge number of "save or die" effects at higher levels (when the game assumes resurrection will be available). One house rule I like is essentially: any "save or die" effect instead drops you to -1 hit point. That way, there's a chance your friends can save you (or even that you can stabilize yourself).
Interesting.
I play with actions points as described in Unearthed Arcana. Only 4 per level though. And I do have an extra rule for damage that might kill you in one blow while conscious, pretty much like Dragonmann suggested but it's only 1 action point. And players are warned that I might just overrule it: If you jump off a cliff or if you are coup de graced you are done for.
I also worry about save or die effects, I almost lost a good character the other day to a glyph of warding with slay living. It would have been very anticlimactic, he was just walking through a door. I'm all for inflicting a sense of dread and danger, but outright killing is a little too much.
Your post and Dragonmann's are making me think... stop it! ;)
Your idea of dropping to -1 and bleeding is a good one, at the cost of 1 action point too.
Or am I being too lenient, and maybe both effects should just suck up ALL your remaining points? Hmm... I have think... more.
Well, an action point allows you to gain a feat for 1 rd, and there is a luck feat that lets you use the reroll you get from the feat to be at -9 and stabilized if you were in positive numbers on hp and would be taken to below -10. I know that feat has the prereq of one other luck feat, and I thought you could only gain the use of a feat you met the prereqs for by using an action point, so maybe if you made that option available, but at the cost of 2 action points.
Well, an action point allows you to gain a feat for 1 rd, and there is a luck feat that lets you use the reroll you get from the feat to be at -9 and stabilized if you were in positive numbers on hp and would be taken to below -10. I know that feat has the prereq of one other luck feat, and I thought you could only gain the use of a feat you met the prereqs for by using an action point, so maybe if you made that option available, but at the cost of 2 action points.
I don't use those feats, they are definitely overpowered for feats, but it does give a basis for action point cost. I think I'm going with your suggestion of 2 action points. I'm going to use the same cost for save or die effects.
To the OP, action points are the way to go if you see you are killing your PCs too often. We started Age of Worms without them, after killing 7 PCs (one a TPK), I decided to give it a try. It's been a big improvement. Only 1 death, but the party prevailed in that encounter, which I'm sure would have been a TPK.
I'm starting Savage Tide this Friday with a different group and I'm definitely using them.
Then again, I'm a no holds barred DM. I read monsters Int and Wis scores and try to interpret them as it may apply to the creature. Sometimes it means they know common attack patterns like flanking, tripping, etc. or tactics, and use them or avoid them. The lower the scores the more "just a collection of hp with automatic attacks" they become.
They are always surprised when an undead pulls a trick on them instead of just flailing it's claws. Fun.
When I start the Rise of Runelords Adventure Path, I will introduce a very unpopular house rules. No raising allowed. It has always irked me that dying in D&D is taken so lightly, because of the fact that you can easily (and in 3rd ed, cheaply) be resurrected. No more. Still, it is a dangerous game, and the adventure paths has always been lethal (as the various obituaries thread cleary show). Therefore, I will be introducing some kind of action point/hero point/fate point system.
I have taken a look at the AP-system in Unearthed Arcana, but it was a tad more complex than I initially wanted it to be. Have anyone tried this with luck? Or have their own system they would care to share?
I am running Shackled City with the no-resurrection house rule, but instead of action points (which I felt were too complex too), I use the alternate death and dying rule from Unearthed Arcana. It has worked very well. No deaths so far, though they've all had to make Fortitude saves vs death several times.
I play like this except with no action points. It makes for a particularly lethal game. The only real downside is that your players are likely to loose characters every so often. Even with a level loss associated with a lost character I find that characters created at higher levels still tend to be a little more powerful then their dear departed comrade. So the danger level is not impossible to deal with, new characters are infinite - the players will win eventually. But dead characters mean that the plot line can't be heavily character driven because the players might well die.
APs work particularly well with this style of play as the plot line has nothing to do with teh players per se.
Way to go and forget my post.. anyway, thanks for the response, I will take a closer look at the AP's, and the optional rules for dying that were mentioned here.
I am also considering keeping the Revivify-spell. Think of it as a defribillator (sp?) of sorts. Maybe even include the raise spells, but shorten the amount of time after death has occurred. So you can Raise dead 1 min/level after death or something. Or what about making a house rules that says that you're not incapacitated at 0 hp, but can continue as normal (still lose 1 hp/round though). When you're at -10, you're practically dead, but can continue on for a number of rounds equal to your con bonus. No healing can aid you during these rounds, but I can easily see it providing for some heroic, last-breath moments where the dying PCs kills the bad guy, and then has his fareweel speech.
When I start the Rise of Runelords Adventure Path, I will introduce a very unpopular house rules. No raising allowed. It has always irked me that dying in D&D is taken so lightly, because of the fact that you can easily (and in 3rd ed, cheaply) be resurrected.
I agree with you on how resurrection is taken for granted in the game. I've never played a high level campaign, so can't comment on the application/use of resurrection spells from first hand experience... but I do use Action Points and find them easy and appropriate for low magic games. The suggestions presented by the various posters are all sound.
As an aside, have you considered restricting resurrection spells to priests of specific faiths? For example, IMC, I'm thinking of limiting resurrection spells to priests of Pelor and/or Nerull... and performing a resurrection would require the approval of a Grand Council of Bishops (or something like that), and would require extraordinary justification... the gods better be given a darned good reason for being cheated of their petitioners, or having them violate the rules/bounds of mortality! This makes obtaining a resurrection a difficult task indeed...
Back in 2nd edition, I usually charged the characters with a quest in order to pay back for the resurrection. However, this quickly led to all adventures being quest, as someone often ended up dying on the quest to resurrect his companion, and someone else died on his quest, and so on. The quest option is sound, but if it happens all the time.. there is no time for the main plot. Unless of course the quest is the main plot.. hmm..
Back in 2nd edition, I usually charged the characters with a quest in order to pay back for the resurrection. However, this quickly led to all adventures being quest, as someone often ended up dying on the quest to resurrect his companion, and someone else died on his quest, and so on. The quest option is sound, but if it happens all the time.. there is no time for the main plot. Unless of course the quest is the main plot.. hmm..
I hear you...
But the quest might pose a moral dilemma if the Church of Nerull is the only one in the area that has access to resurrection spells. I think that might lead to a different kind of quest (and roleplaying experience). And in certain cases, Church officials might simply say:
"What? You again? Isn't this the third time you've died and come begging for a resurrection? While we're grateful for all the artifacts you've brought back and the creatures you've sent to their graves in the process, I'd say Nerull is sending us a message... he wants YOU!!! And we aren't going to deny him..."
I also use action points, but I call them "Action Bucks" because I made artistic versions of dollar billz. Ever worried about player acccounting of their points? Well, I don't. If one of my players wants the benefit, he's actually got "spend the buck" (by handing over the bill to me)! And it's a much more visceral experience for my players. They all make sure they've got their action bucks on the table along with their dice, pencils and character sheets.
I've got Red & Green varieties of Action Bucks(tm ;^). On the most basic level, both kinds grant a 1d8 bonus to a d20 roll. By making them rarer and more effective, most of my players tend to use them when they need it the most! Everybody gets 1 green buck upon gaining a level, plus 1 more for every 4th lvl they possess (no round offs). I only give out a red buck when a player or the group does something really special - like when they complete a chapter in SCAP, or when an individual really demonstrates ingenuity in some way.
My action bucks also have the following properties (most of which I copied & modded from this guy: http://www.fief.org/ShackledCity/ ):
1. Stabilize. Don't want to die? Use an action buck to automatically stabilize. Does not help if you are already dead.
2. Activate a class feature. Used you 1/day smite evil already? Really, really want to rage again? 2 Green action bucks, or 1 Red action buck allows you to do this.
3. Not happy with a damage roll. Add a d8 to it. This costs 2 Green action buck, or 1 Red action buck.
4. Regain the use of a spell slot, spell per day, or clerical prayer per day. The regained spell must be cast during the initiative pass they are regained. This costs 1 Green action buck for each spell level regained. A Red action buck counts as 2 spell levels.
Really liked your approach to it, Forever Man. I think I will use your houserules (maybe with a slight modification), and then allow raising, but it's going to be rare, expensive and with consequences. Maybe the raisee (is that a word?) suffers some minor physical deformities or something upon returning.
Really liked your approach to it, Forever Man. I think I will use your houserules (maybe with a slight modification), and then allow raising, but it's going to be rare, expensive and with consequences. Maybe the raisee (is that a word?) suffers some minor physical deformities or something upon returning.
Thanks! If you like, I can arrange to put my action buck tiles (for printing 3 per 8.5 x 11" sheet) at rpgenius.com . . . so you can use print outs (to mention nothing of modding in photoshop) yourself.
As far as raising/ressurection goes . . . I agree that it's pretty cheesy. I've been playing D & D for almost 30 years now, and, although I really love the d20 system and its versatility, I find the entire D & D magic system from ressurection to spells & spell casting to it's Monty Hall magic items & crafting system to be, well . . . anti-heroic. D & D is still it's own genre, and is not a generic or general fanstasy genre at all. D & D is still the "redmod, hollypuck" (or whatever old english words Gary Gygax feels is appropos) Gygaxian tongue-in-cheek fantasy magic system that it's always been.
Personally, I'm an Iron Heroes man. I think that's the best fantasy genre out (IMHO) there! But I mostly play (and GM) D & D the most because that's what everyone knows & there's never been room for an equal in the rpg business. Good luck!