@ Darkjoy- To both of your routines- Gem of seeing, and 110' range increments. My first 2 attacks due to haste are @ +32. One or 2 raneg increments aren;t gonna hurt me. Sure, I'd take a hit when I hit the ground, but I'd still kill you in 2 rounds. You need to move faster.
@ Ericthecleric- Same thing. If I win initiative, I can hit you, usually twice before you can get into that routine. You need to take me down in 2 rounds or its not gonna work. Ghost touch on the bow (which I had) overcomes etherealness. And Mord's is a close range spell, FYI.
@ Saern- Good point :) I did have an adamantine dagger, and I was gonna use it when I grappled him, but he poofed away :)
C'mon!!! you guys can do better than this. 2 rounds to kill a fighter, thats all you get.
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C'mon!!! you guys can do better than this. 2 rounds to kill a fighter, thats all you get.
Are you saying 2 rounds because of the deadliness of the fighter, or is this a challenge to kill a well-prepared fighter in two rounds starting out unbuffed and within range of his deadly arrows? If it is the former, what about my earlier post suggesting the use of a Cube of Force to provide protection for buffing?
2 rounds due to damage output. the cube of force idea is valid, as it would prevent either party from attacking. Ok, so cube of force, what next?
Otiluke's resilient sphere on the mage to accomplish some of the same effects as the cube of force, but focused on himself. And, of course, the time stop your unworthy adversary so carelessly disregarded.
After that, it can actually be quite difficult to stop the fighter's damage. Etherealness won't stand up to ghost touch, both invisibility and displacement are pierced by a gem of true seeing, and stoneskin is of no help against what will surely be adamantine ammunition. Oh, and protection from arrows is a joke at this point, due to the fact that the fighter will have a magical bo- Ding! Got it- come out of those "invulnerability" stances and drop either a greater dispel magic or worse, Mordenkainen's disjunction to get rid of the weapon's magical properties. Then he's got masterwork shooting non-magical adamantine arrows. Stoneskin still doesn't help, but protection from arrows is back in the picture. Mordenkainen's disjunction is probably better, since you can concievably take out the gem of true seeing as well as any cloak of resistance, magical rings, or annoying potions of greater magic weapon the fighter might have in reserve. Just in case, the wizard should have some quickened dispelling ability, as well as a greater rod of quickining, so that in any given round, he can get two or three spells off to try and disable the fighter, in case one fails.
The trick is for the wizard to realize that he has to give himself more time than 2 rounds, which he can do. Strange- typically the thought is that prolonging the fight is in the fighter's advantage, whereas speed is the wizard's domain. In this scenario, the wizard is the one who wants to draw the encounter out!
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Seriously. That was one dumb wizard player. No time stop? WTF? Why the hell was he trying to dispel your gear? That's about one of the most inefficient tactics he could have chosen. Hell, magic missiling you to death would have probably been smarter! The first thing any compotent wizard does is make himself invulnerable- once he's got a decent amount of buffs up, he can direct damage and debuff the fighter to death.
So, it came down to planning vs. not planning, with the end result of planning winning. Bah.
EDIT- Oh, and congratulations on the win, but I really think you need a rematch against a compotent wizard to achieve what this "test" set out to do.
Next time I'm in Tampa, I'll bring a character sheet. :D
I'm telling you man, time stop, time stop, time stop. I'm convinced that the wizard's player is REALLY unfamiliar with higher level spells and clearly does not know how to form a solid defense. I find it depressing that a fight we experienced gamers thought was going to be a one-sided slaughter ended up completely reversed from our proposals. Kudos to you for your excellent planning though, and wise use of the boards. :)
Ha, sounds good. I got an extra room, and a very tolerant wife :)
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Okay, here we go:
Round 1:
Time Stop for 4 rounds of untouchable goodness. During those four rounds:
- Quickened Mirror Image and Prismatic Sphere
- Quickened Haste and Solid Fog around the Fighter
- Quickened Grease around the Fighter and Wind Wall in the squares immediately in front of me (assuming I see you've got a bow readied, otherwise I use Wall of Force instead)
- Quickened Fly and Shapechange (probably in scroll form) to assume a form capable of spellcasting with higher Constitution for more HP and substantial resistances. Also, I will choose a form with Blindsight. Then I take a move action to fly directly up, safely away from melee (but still behind the Wind Wall).
Now, your Gem of True Seeing is foiled by the Solid Fog (since it's a Conjuration, not an Illusion), the Grease makes moving out of it even more difficult (mobility is limited because of the fog, severely hampering even Boots of Speed), and my various protections make it very unlikely that you will even manage to score a hit. You take whatever actions you're going to take, presumably your first act will be to leave or dispel the fog somehow since your chances of hitting me are practically non-existant thanks to Wind Wall.
Round 2:
Move to close range (haste + fly = mobility out the wazzoo) and cast a Quickened Displacement followed by a Mordenkainen's Disjunction. I will most assuredly take Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration) just to make sure that the Mord's does something nasty. I have Blindsight (see above) to negate the problem of not being able to target stuff through my own fog (if you dispelled it, it's a non-issue anyway). This will probably be your only chance to get something resembling a clear shot at me, but if the Mord's takes out your Gem, you're dealing with a 50% miss chance from Displacement on top of my Mirror Image. If the Gem makes the save, you've got a fighting chance.
Round 3:
Dominate Person. I will have you systematically remove all of your gear and move as far away as possible. This may take a few rounds. Afterwards, I will use my scroll of Mord's on your UNATTENDED ITEMS. At this point, you are naked. You have all but lost.
Successive Rounds:
I cackle with glee, unleashing magic missiles, fireballs, ice storms, and polar rays on you until you are very suitably dead. There is nothing you can do about it because I'm flying. I will probably also nail your unattended (and now non-magical) weapons with a disintegrate before you can get to them, just to add insult to injury.
Satisfied? ;)
Fatespinner, all I can say is "OUCH!!!".
Nope. What if you roll a 1 on your 1d4+1 timestop? You have 2 rounds, make em count :)
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Okay, here we go:Items that I *WILL* have:
- A Staff capable of casting greater dispel magic.
- At least 2 scrolls of Mordenkainen's Disjunction in addition to my memorized one.
- The aforementioned scroll of Shapechange.
- Every Intelligence boosting item I can get my greedy little hands on.
- An amulet of proof against poison.
- A rod of negation for dealing with pesky anti-magic fields if you are so bold as to try to use one.
Obviously I will have other items as well, but these are the pivotal ones.
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Nope. What if you roll a 1 on your 1d4+1 timestop? You have 2 rounds, make em count :)
Ignore the 1st and 3rd rounds then. It's such a minor setback it doesn't even matter. I would probably protect myself with an Otiluke's Sphere as Saern recommended once I saw such a crappy roll. Still, the setback is very minor.
Also, what if I roll a '4'? I would use the extra round for some summon monster spells just to harrass you.
NOW we're gettin somewhere :)
A. Do any of those require an XP component?
B. Do any of them break the 148K GP limit per item?
C. What if you loose initiative and I just did 88 points of damage with a readied manyshot when you tried to cast time stop? :)
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NOW we're gettin somewhere :)
A. Do any of those require an XP component?
Nope.
B. Do any of them break the 148K GP limit per item?
I don't have a DMG to check myself, but I'm pretty sure they don't.
C. What if you loose initiative and I just did 88 points of damage with a readied manyshot when you tried to cast time stop? :)
My contingent teleport will save me just like it saved your friend in the first rounds of your other fights. :)
Oh, the above gave me another idea- actually, an addendum to Fatespinner's.
Shapechange + four little words:
Great
Wyrm
Red
Dragon
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Oh, the above gave me another idea- actually, an addendum to Fatespinner's.
Shapechange + four little words:
Great
Wyrm
Red
Dragon
I don't believe an 18th level wizard has the hit dice to pull off that sucker. A lesser dragon would certainly be an option high on my list, though, especially because their Blindsense range is pretty ridiculous.
Ah, yes, I forgot, great wyrm isn't available with that spell until 20th level. Aw, darn, I guess you'll have to settle for a measly 36-HD wyrm red dragon then! Whatever will you do?
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Ah, yes, I forgot, great wyrm isn't available with that spell until 20th level. Aw, darn, I guess you'll have to settle for a measly 36-HD wyrm red dragon then! Whatever will you do?
I know. Tragic, isn't it?
Hmm... can shapechange turn you into an undead? I can't remember. A dracolich would be pretty nasty since I could completely ignore death effects, poisons, and massive damage.
I don't know about that, but time stop + shapechange + gate (I know it's not technically applicable here due to my own cheesy ruling, but still...) = HOLY S&@*!!!
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Hmmm.... MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Okay, ready for this?
Quickened Plane Shift
I'm on another PLANE, son. I have all the time in the WORLD to buff and do whatever with no hope of you interrupting me. Because it's Quickened, you can't stop me with a readied action (I think?). Then, when I'm all done, I just pop another plane shift and a greater teleport (if necessary) to get back to the arena. If quickening a spell does not prevent it from being interrupted, perhaps an amulet of the planes would serve the purpose just as well since I'm almost 100% positive that you cannot interrupt the activation of a worn magical item.
This borders on cheating, but damn it's evil.
Against these last strategies, I'm having trouble imagining a fighter's way out. That may be an ideal recipe for the wizard in this arena.
Against these last strategies, I'm having trouble imagining a fighter's way out. That may be an ideal recipe for the wizard in this arena.Why thank you, Jade. I like to think that I'm good at what I do. :)
Heartlessly slaughter innocent sword-wielders who've done nothing wrong to you while cackling with manic laughter?
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Heartlessly slaughter innocent sword-wielders who've done nothing wrong to you while cackling with manic laughter?Against these last strategies, I'm having trouble imagining a fighter's way out. That may be an ideal recipe for the wizard in this arena.Why thank you, Jade. I like to think that I'm good at what I do. :)
Precisely.
The moral of the story: Don't give Fatespinner 9th level spell slots to play with.
See, were I a DM and not the poor fighter, I would rule that leaving THIS plane of existence is a forfeit. If I have time to go eat lunch before you're ready to face me, I'm pretty sure I've already won ;)
One option is to focus him on grappling and intiative. Give him a cape of the monte blank or helm of teleportation. If you can win initiative teleport to him and grapple him. Once he's pinned he'll have a tough time casting spells unless he has used the Still spell feat. It's by no mean full proof (especially if he has a ring of freedom of movement).
Make sure you have something that will help you see invisbility, and boost your will saves so that you don't end up on the wrong end of a feeblemind or dominate spell. Make sure he can be mobile (winged boots etc..) and hopefully you can make the fighter invisible (even though he'll buff up with see invisbility). The archery will certainly help. Especially if you hold actions. Make sure you have adamantine weapons to penetrate stoneskin. If the grappling doesn't work pump as many arrows into him as possible or teleport in and cream with a some power attacks.
In my campaign our order of the bow initiate recently rocked a really powerful and well buffed, wizard with his archery skills.
Hmmm.... MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Okay, ready for this?
Quickened Plane Shift
I'm on another PLANE, son. I have all the time in the WORLD to buff and do whatever with no hope of you interrupting me. Because it's Quickened, you can't stop me with a readied action (I think?). Then, when I'm all done, I just pop another plane shift and a greater teleport (if necessary) to get back to the arena. If quickening a spell does not prevent it from being interrupted, perhaps an amulet of the planes would serve the purpose just as well since I'm almost 100% positive that you cannot interrupt the activation of a worn magical item.
This borders on cheating, but damn it's evil.
I would suggest the fighter use an armor with etherealness for a quick ethereal jaunt, sink 150 feet into the ground, take a nap and see how long it takes the wizard to find me. Hopefully the wizard should be down several spells and missing several buffs.
Although I have a bad feeling that I misread something...
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I would suggest the fighter use an armor with etherealness for a quick ethereal jaunt, sink 150 feet into the ground, take a nap and see how long it takes the wizard to find me. Hopefully the wizard should be down several spells and missing several buffs.
Although I have a bad feeling that I misread something...
Locate Creature, Etherealness, Greater Dispel Magic. Now I've dispelled your ethereal jaunt and you solidify INSIDE THE GROUND. This, of course, shunts you to the nearest open space... 150 ft. up. You take 30d6 damage (1d6 for each 5 ft. shunted, I think?) and I've barely done anything yet. Not the best idea.
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See, were I a DM and not the poor fighter, I would rule that leaving THIS plane of existence is a forfeit. If I have time to go eat lunch before you're ready to face me, I'm pretty sure I've already won ;)
Yeah, like I said, it borders on cheating, but you'd need to make sure you clarify that in the rules beforehand. One could argue that using ethereal jaunt would be violating the rules in that case, since the Ethereal Plane is technically another plane.
Honestly, it wouldn't take THAT long to get all the buffing I needed accomplished. Maybe 5-10 rounds for the whole shebang. That's less than a minute of real time.
hee hee, just realized, gem of seeing allows me to see into the etheral too :)
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hee hee, just realized, gem of seeing allows me to see into the etheral too :)
Yes it does, and ghost touch allows you to strike ethereal targets. That's why my plane shift would probably take me to the Elemental Plane of Air or Elysium or something. Your vision/attacks won't extend there. :)
Its like a game of chess really. Feint, counter feint, thrust, parry. A violent bit o'ballet. I like it :)
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Its like a game of chess really. Feint, counter feint, thrust, parry. A violent bit o'ballet. I like it :)
I also just thought of another strategy. Quickened true strike followed by energy drain and/or enervation. In fact, it would only need an 8th level slot to do a quickened enervation as well. I would shred through your 18 levels pretty fast that way unless you had some kind of protection against energy drain... and, of course, we're assuming that any such protection you did have survived the barrage of Mord's...
Scarab of protection and lavender/green ioun stone both provide protection, but yeah, if you hit me with an effective mord's first, I'd have a hard time. But you've still given me 2 rounds to hit you...
Yeah, I'm gettin a bit cocky now :) The larger groups is having an arena style event, and I'm expected to bring this build. I'll prolly get my butt kicked :) I can rework the gear, which helps, as it will be arean style PvP. Not sure if its for beer or bragging rights, but it should be fun!!!
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Scarab of protection and lavender/green ioun stone both provide protection, but yeah, if you hit me with an effective mord's first, I'd have a hard time. But you've still given me 2 rounds to hit you...
You've seen my fight-starter setup. I don't think you'll be able to accomplish much in those two rounds given the setup I've got running.
Yeah, I'm gettin a bit cocky now :) The larger groups is having an arena style event, and I'm expected to bring this build. I'll prolly get my butt kicked :) I can rework the gear, which helps, as it will be arean style PvP. Not sure if its for beer or bragging rights, but it should be fun!!!
Well, the problem with an anti-wizard build in a free-for-all PvP battle against multiple opponents is that not all of your opponents will be wizards. If you decide to go with the light armor and high Dex routine, I think you'll find yourself having a hard time against rogues who can catch you flat-footed and ignore a bunch of your AC before hammering you with a flurry of Sneak Attacks. Especially since the gem of seeing doesn't help you in the slightest against mundane stealth. With some sort of item providing the rogue with a haste function, the rogue could have Greater Two-Weapon Fighting by 18th level and thus get a horrifying 7 attacks on you with +9d6 Sneak Attack damage each!
Locate Creature, Etherealness, Greater Dispel Magic. Now I've dispelled your ethereal jaunt and you solidify INSIDE THE GROUND. This, of course, shunts you to the nearest open space... 150 ft. up. You take 30d6 damage (1d6 for each 5 ft. shunted, I think?) and I've barely done anything yet. Not the best idea.
Yeah, that would be the way to punish my plan, but I was hoping for a detection spell with at least saving throw to get me a few rounds of peace and quiet. I didn't think locate creature extended into the ethereal plane, but it doesn't matter if you are doing a plane by plane search.
I guess I was a little overenthusiastic when I made that post.
And now, due to all of your excellent advice, I am being accused of cheating :( My opponent seems to be insinuating that it was not "my" build (metagamed as it was according to him, and it was), nor the fighter as a class that defeated him, but the generous advice I recieved here. This makes me very sad, and a little pissed. This form the guy who quites the WoTC boards liek they are gospel? ugh.
And yeah, in the arena scenario v other classes, i'd swap the ioun stone and slaying arrows (66k gp) for some good armor, maybe just chain shirt with light fortification. With all the bonuses, I could be in the low to mid 30s AC wise and still have dodge and haste on top of that.
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And now, due to all of your excellent advice, I am being accused of cheating :( My opponent seems to be insinuating that it was not "my" build (metagamed as it was according to him, and it was), nor the fighter as a class that defeated him, but the generous advice I recieved here. This makes me very sad, and a little pissed. This form the guy who quites the WoTC boards liek they are gospel? ugh.
This guy sounds like, for lack of a more mature term, a douchebag. Who cares what advice you used? The arguement wasn't "who is a better player" it was "which class is superior." F*#~ him for being stupid and not knowing how to play a wizard properly. F~&* him more for trying to whine about it after the fact. If you had been using sources outside of the Core 3, then I could maybe have the tiniest bit of sympathy since he might not have access to all the books and resources that we do collectively. BUT THAT'S NOT THE CASE! He had the same limits you did. He's just a sore loser.
And yeah, in the arena scenario v other classes, i'd swap the ioun stone and slaying arrows (66k gp) for some good armor, maybe just chain shirt with light fortification. With all the bonuses, I could be in the low to mid 30s AC wise and still have dodge and haste on top of that.
I'd recommend sacrificing a little more for heavy fortification. Don't give those dirty rogues an edge at all. Also make sure that you don't neglect your melee ability since you will almost certainly get into melee with some of the other martial classes.
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A while ago there was a thread about a fighter using antimagic field. If anyone remembers the thread, please point it out!
That would be a thread which I commented heavily in. You can find it here: Calling All Powergamers
Maybe I should start considering myself a powergamer given the amount of cheesy game-breaking advice I've managed to spew out on these boards... hmm...
IME, anyone who posts on RPG bulletin boards tends to be at least a little bit of a powergamer. Its ok. You're among friends :)