So yeah, a good friend of mine and I are having the age old "fighters suck" conversation, when I (generally pro fighter)asked him if he had ever actually played out the scenario. He said "Well, no, but..." So here we go: 18th level, Elite Array (15,13,12,11,10,8), PHB, DMG, MM only. Phb races, average HP. No spell effects in effect at begining of game, and no buff rounds. prolly foot ball field sized playing area, not sure of cover. Full wealth, no more than 33% on any one item (440K gold wealth/ <148 K on one item). My first impulse is to ignore my own AC, make a high dex dwarf archer, and concnetrate wealth into 1. Awesome bow, 2. Ring (or 2) of spell reflection) 3. Dex boosting items (touch AC, ref saves, ranged to hit, and initiative), 4. Slaying arrows (though I have no idea what race he is playing, so I may have to have some redundancies). I figure if I can get the first initiative, with shot on the run and many shot, I should be able to put 4 greater slaying arrows into him (Fort save dc23) in the first round and then hide like a mo-fo. If he gets one good round off on me, I know I am toast. Thoughts?
I'd have to recommend a Scarab of Protection.
For a one-off fight like this, and with it only costing 38000gp, I think it would be a great investment in case he does get a spell off on you.
With a SR (though it is only SR 20, it's better then nothing) and the capacity to absorb death effects, negative energy and energy drain it may well ensure that you see the second round, especially if he tries a one-hit kill spell.
Also what are the chances of being able to start of holding a Mirror of Opposition facing him? ;-)
Thanks, I think i'll use that :) Looking through the DMG last night, it appears that is the item granting the highest level of SR, is that correct? I shoulda played a drow....
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When fighting a Wizard, readied actions are your friend. Do whatever you have to do (feats, high dex etc.) to make sure you win initiative. When you do, set up with a readied action to attack him when he starts casting a spell. If you can do enough damage, he will lose the spell do to a high concentration check, and you can repeat that until he is out of hp. A ranged bow fighter isn't a bad idea. Your biggest concern is going to be instant kill spells. If he is smart, he will have built the character in such a way that you are going to be making lots of save or die saving throws. For that reason, get a high end cloak of resistance and try to boost your saving throw relevant ability scores as high as possible. Try to find items in the DMG that protect you from negative levels, death effects, and those sorts of "fail a save and lose" type effects.
Lastly, try to give yourself cover so that he doesn't have line of sight or line of effect to you. That will negate some of his best advantages. Expect him to fly right from the get go to put distance between you. If he gets a free go of flying outside your range but you are still within his, he will AoE you to death. Watch out for summoned creatures as distractions. Don't lose sight of the fact that no matter what he throws at you, he is still physically frail and that is his biggest weakness. Be ready for a tough fight and pray for some luck with the dice.
Beyond that good luck and tell us how it goes.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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If the wizard player is smart and doesn't play a race that diminishes his level, he will have 9th level spells. Even if you win the first initiative, you'd better hope you kill him because (if I were him) my first spell would be time stop followed by a flurry of protections and buffs (improved invisibility, stoneskin, and prismatic sphere, just to name a few). Your life will be quite difficult after that point. You might want to consider something like the Occult Slayer PrC (unless the idea of the competition is to pit Ftr18 vs. Wiz18, in which case... may god have mercy on your soul). If you are unable to take that PrC, at least consider the Mage Slayer (and related) feat(s) from Complete Arcane.
FAtespinner- No joy. FTR18 v WIZ 18. Yeah, its gonna be ugly. The timestop thing is totally true. There are a couple things I can do, moslty win initiative, have clear line of sight, and hit him hard enough in the first round (Manyshot FTW!! I hope). I figure at best he will have ~60 hp, which I can easily do in the first round, IF i get to hit him first. Of course, he has also dropped the Contingency bomb in the smack talk leading up. I need to figure out WHEN it takes effect. ie, if he has teleport set up for when he takes damage, does only the first arrow of the round count?
Brent- Excellent points all, and about what I figured. terrain is gonna be big battlemat, random obstacles, random starting placment. Hooray for coordinate grids.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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If I knew I was building an EIGHTEENTH LEVEL wizard for a one-shot "kill the fighter" battle royale, I would play a human and get the following feats:
1 Improved Initiative
H Empower Spell
3 Sudden Still
5 Sudden Silent
6 Sudden Empower
9 Sudden Quicken
10 Maximize Spell
12 Spell Penetration
15 Arcane Mastery (Comp. Arc.)
15(2) Danger Sense (Comp. Adv.)
18 Spell Focus (Evocation)
Here's how the fight goes:
With my Imp. Init and Danger Sense, I have an EXTREMELY good chance of going first. I use my time stop to buff like crazy and probably disappear from sight. You probably won't find me without a gem of true seeing or something. Then, Mr. Fighter With a Crappy Will Save, I target you with a Sudden Silent Mordenkainen's Disjunction. Let's get rid of all those nasty magical items, shall we? I'm STILL invisible and you didn't hear a thing. Next comes the maximized empowered fireball. If you fail the save, you take 90 and check for massive damage. If you pass, you still take 45. I have THREE of these prepared. Now, you have a general idea where I might be. This is your last chance to hurt me. Make it count. I will blast you with my crazy UBERfireballs until I'm convinced that you've fallen below 100 hp and then tack a Sudden Quickened Power Word: Kill on the end. No save. Game over.
Oh, and by the way - PW:Kill is not considered a death effect and is an enchantment, not a necromancy. There's no way out (unless you play an undead or something odd).
Caveat: I would have prepared a mixture of maximized empowered fireballs AND maximized empowered lightning bolts just in case you had resistance or immunity to one or the other... of course, after the Disjunction, it probably won't matter.
As for your protection, notice the combination of Spell Penetration and Arcane Mastery? Spell Penetration gives me a +2 on caster level checks to overcome spell resistance. Arcane Mastery lets me take 10 on caster level checks. Therefore, unless you can muster up more than 30 SR, it will never matter.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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As I outlined in my previous strategy, save or die spells are not the best way to handle fighters. Fighters have high Fort saves and, with the right items, it becomes impossible for them to fail the saves unless they roll a 1 or you have a 70 Intelligence.
Oh, and you mentioned Contingency? Mine:
If someone perceives me through my invisibility, target them with glitterdust. Glitterdust allows a WILL save, not Fort, and, if you fail, you're BLINDED for one round per caster level AND cannot hope to get away by using an item to grant yourself invisibility.
Did I mention that I'm an extremely evil wizard player?
Fatespinner: NICE...... >:) Remind me to never, EVER face off against you in a spell duel.
Oh, and about the assessment that the mage will have only ~60 hp. One word, five letters:
G N O M E
I've seen a gnome wizard have hp equal to the party's fighter over a spread of levels. All I can say is get a higher initiative in on this guy. Oh, and the combat should probably be run three times, with best of two out of three determining it. You know, just to throw out any oddballs of random chance.
Come on, guys, let's hear some fighter counter strategies! I'm more of a wizard player, myself, but I'm still interested in an even match up. I'd suggest something like a gem of trueseeing and a bow (as you've already mentioned). Don't use a melee weapon- you have to waste time moving up to the wizard, and if he goes airborne, you're screwed. I echo the comment that readied actions are your friend.
Couldn't you use manyshot during a readied action? In that case, you'd have to weigh even bothering to attack on your round. It may be smarter to just constantly ready and attack when you can disrupt his castings.
Fatespinner - you can play a really nasty wizard, I see... BUT you are wrong about PW: Kill. It is indeed a Death effect (specifically, Enchantment (Compulsion) [Death, Mind-Affecting]), so there are a number of different buffs that can render immunity to it. Not that that matters when you've dropped a Mord's disjunction on them, possibly followed by a Greater Dispel to make sure at least one magic item stops working (more than likely the fighter's weapon, but you never know).
However, there's one spell you neglected: Shatter. A heightened Shatter should easily get by the Fighter's Will save, resulting in a broken weapon.
@ FS- Nice build, but not usable in this game. Core 3 ONLY. And isn't mord's a 9th level spell? Or is sudden the thingy where it doesn't raise it a spell level? And can you sudden 2 spells? I thought it was one/day? EDIT: And Glitterdust can't be used as a contingency spell. Personal spells only, per RAW. Do you have any idea how much I've learned about Wizzys planning this:)
@ S- Frikkin gnomes... but this player is unlikley to use one (metagaming) he's more likely to use a human. Manyshot is indeed a standard action, so the readied action thing may work. Yeah, I'm going with a bow fighter dwarf (bonuses to saves FTW!!), gem of seeing, ghost touch, seeking and other stuff on the bow, all of the PHB archery feats, and a dagger. Always have to have a dagger.
The weakness of most of FS' tactic is the range involved. My regular to hit is +35 ghost touch, so a raneg increment or 2 isn;t gonna hurt me that badly. the PW:spells have 25+5/2 levels range (70ft), and glitterdust is "only" 100 + 10/level (280 ish). Fireball, etc is a problem, but inshallah my saves will help w/ that.
Great ideas, keep em coming!!
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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@ FS- Nice build, but not usable in this game. Core 3 ONLY.
Oooooooohhh... Core 3 only makes things rough. No Sudden feats, no Danger Sense, no fancy BS...
Wind wall will be your worst enemy if you go with the ranged attack routine. Ghost touch is a smart move on your part because etherealness would be one of my backup defenses. Even without the Sudden Feats, Mordenkainen's Disjunction is not your friend and, as TK said, shatter will also ruin your day. I would probably protect myself within a solid forcecage and summon monsters to harrass you while stripping away your defenses. Also, I'm assuming you're planning on using a mighty composite bow? Ray of Enfeeblement can drop your Strength below the rating of the bow, giving you some significant penalties to worry about (on top of the ones already bestowed by the spell). Bestow Curse would also be in my arsenal, aimed at causing you a 50% chance to do nothing in a given round.
I'm not really good at thinking of fighter strategies, but I can tell you what to worry about and let you figure out the counter on your own. My knowledge of magical items is fairly limited (since I make most of my own up from scratch) but notice that I haven't even gone into the different ITEMS your wizard foe may have, I'm just talking about SPELLS. Beware the staff of power, my friend. Beware.
The wizard probably won't be terribly concerned about your range increments. With displacement and mirror image going on, your attack roll isn't what matters. You've got a 50% chance to hit me, even if you hit my AC. If you succeed at THAT, you need another check to hit the REAL me. Unless you're extremely lucky, the wizard will have no problem getting closer to you. Also keep in mind stuff like spectral hand to deliver touch spells from far away.
Also, if the wizard beefs up his Dex, he'll have a pretty nice ranged touch attack bonus. Bear in mind that your armor really won't matter. Go with something light and get as much deflection, dodge, and luck bonuses to AC as possible. Meteor Swarm will hurt A LOT MORE if he succeeds at those 4 ranged touch attacks, not to mention you won't get a save.
The reverse strategy is, of course, to protect yourself with an antimagic field somehow.
An 18th level wizard can get to you in a hurry if he wants, with dimension door and greater teleport. Maybe you can get a dimensional anchor permanencied?
Essential gear: ring of spell turning, ring of three wishes. First use it to wish for Improved Evasion, then Improved Invisibility. Save the last wish to undo some nasty effect he throws on you.
Eyes of petrification can't hurt.
The scarab of protection is a good idea (though the SR isn't going to help you... if he's got any Spell Penetration feats at all he'll get past SR 20 on a roll of a 1) to prevent the nasty energy drain and death effects. Or, you could take a hand of glory instead and put a ring of blinking on it.
A potion of energy resistance 30 (cold) will help when he starts blasting you with polar ray. No save on that sucker.
Get boots of speed rather than a longbow of speed. It'll save you money.
As for the bow, consider the merciful enhancement instead of flaming, frost, or shock. It gets by all energy resistance, and him falling unconscious is pretty much the same as him dying.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Another thing to worry about:
Gate
If he summons a marilith out onto the field and you keep trying to shoot the wizard with your bow while the marilith is next to you, you will suffer serious pain at the hands of AoOs. If you turn your attention to the marilith, the wizard is going to make your life miserable.
One-on-one versus a wizard is really one of the worst situations to be caught in as a fighter, imo.
Was trying to figure out how to keep him from teleporting. Gem of seeing pretty much nerfs any illusions, and I have a ring of blink. Ring of spell turning was high on my list, but I figure between the scarab of protection for death effects and the Lanevder and Purple ioun stone (absorbs spells up to 8th level), I should be ok for a while. The summoned critter thing worries me, though if he is spending a full round summonning, he is not throwing fireballs. Boots of speed were on my shopping list, as is dust of disapearance, fer giggles. And then I'm pretty much out of money. May try to squeeze a potion or 2 into there, what would you suggest?
EDIT: Ok, just read windwall. Does the seeking quality on the bow overcome that? Or am i pretty much hosed by a 2nd level spell?
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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As for the bow, consider the merciful enhancement instead of flaming, frost, or shock. It gets by all energy resistance, and him falling unconscious is pretty much the same as him dying.
Can't get merciful in the Core 3, unfortunately. It seems to me that choosing Core 3 is going to hamper both sides pretty heavily, but I think it actually hurts the fighter MORE.
Yeah, Core 3 is hurtin me pretty bad. Well, sorta. I could get weapon mastery, etc, but my physical to hit is not the problem. Sensing and overcoming defenses is.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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One-on-one versus a wizard is really one of the worst situations to be caught in as a fighter, imo.
Yup. It's too bad you can't use a class that is meant to best the wizard, such as the monk. Then you could always show how the monk gets beaten by the fighter, and have a rock-paper-scissor style balance.
Honestly, I think a better comparison of their relative abilities would be to have them each face off against a CR 17 or 18 monster and see which one does better. Or, even better, an obstacle course consisting of appropriate CR traps, groups of creatures, and investigation challenges.
The core classes are not meant to be balanced against each other in direct combat, they are meant to be balanced against each other against the range of encounters experienced by the players.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Mord's is going to KILL your ioun stone and your gem, most likely, along with most everything else. Invest in Iron Will and a Periapt of Wisdom for as much as you can, as well as a cloak of resistance.
The ring of blinking I don't think is going to help much. Few of a wizard's attacks are physical in nature and he could very easily use forcecage, wall of force, or dimensional anchor to keep you exactly where he wants you. Not to mention, if he wants to be cruel, he can just relentlessly pound you with magic missile while you're phasing.
Mord's is going to KILL your ioun stone and your gem, most likely, along with most everything else. Invest in Iron Will and a Periapt of Wisdom for as much as you can, as well as a cloak of resistance.
The ring of blinking I don't think is going to help much. Few of a wizard's attacks are physical in nature and he could very easily use forcecage, wall of force, or dimensional anchor to keep you exactly where he wants you. Not to mention, if he wants to be cruel, he can just relentlessly pound you with magic missile while you're phasing.
@ Seb- Oh I agree. PvP is not a true test of balanced classes. I think fighters should still level faster than other types to reflect this.
@ FS- Mord's is now one of my nightmares, thanks :) I figure I can either defend against 3/5 9th level spells (ring of spell reflection) or just protect against the insta kill and try to absorb all of his lower level attacks. I am anticipating DC30 saves for most spells (maybe be hi or low, but its what I am using to plan), and as it stands my will is lowest at +17, so its a 50/50 chance. Anything targetted on me has to get by the SR (too easy, then the ioun stone, then my saves. Oi. This IS the worst spot to be stuck in as a fighter.
Shatter can't destroy a magical weapon, I don't think, and you WILL have a magical weapon (and if not... WTF?). Correct me if I'm wrong.
I agree with Sebastian, and when I read the thread title (but before the actual post) I was planning on writting just one word: Monk.
The problem with the obstacle course is finding a representative set of challenges. It's pretty hard to set down all the stuff you're actually going to find in real play into a single set of more abstract challenges.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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The problem with the obstacle course is finding a representative set of challenges. It's pretty hard to set down all the stuff you're actually going to find in real play into a single set of more abstract challenges.
That is true, particularly if you are trying to compare classes that work best as part of a group (*cough* bard *cough*). Still, I think even fighting a single CR 18 monster would be a better comparison. The fighter player could pick the creature for the wizard to fight (might I recommend a golem) and the wizard could pick the creature for the fighter to fight (something intangible).
Yeah, Monk is THE mage killer, but thats not the gist of the brouhaha :) His comment was" Fighters suck" and "I challenge any here to build be a level 18 fighter that can compete with a level 18 wizard". So here we are. And yes, I have a magic bow. The obstacles were less of the "can the pc overcome them" than "can they use it to advantage for cover, etc." Honeslty, AS LONG as I win Initiative, the game stays close. If he wins init, i'm hosed.
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Shatter can't destroy a magical weapon, I don't think, and you WILL have a magical weapon (and if not... WTF?). Correct me if I'm wrong.
From the description of Dispel Magic:
If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item’s caster level. If you succeed, all the item’s magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers on its own. A suppressed item becomes nonmagical for the duration of the effect.
Emphasis added.
I don't know that this is important for a duel (because of timing issues)*, but Dispel/Shatter works pretty well to destroy magic items. I reserve it as a part of my MAD suite: "Yes, you can do that. So can I. Do you think we'll have more fun if we both do or if we both don't?"
* Hmm, Greater Dispel followed immediately by Quickened Shatter?
Thats why you always have to have a dagger, preferably adamantine :)
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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As I outlined in my previous strategy, save or die spells are not the best way to handle fighters. Fighters have high Fort saves and, with the right items, it becomes impossible for them to fail the saves unless they roll a 1 or you have a 70 Intelligence.
Oh, and you mentioned Contingency? Mine:
If someone perceives me through my invisibility, target them with glitterdust. Glitterdust allows a WILL save, not Fort, and, if you fail, you're BLINDED for one round per caster level AND cannot hope to get away by using an item to grant yourself invisibility.
Did I mention that I'm an extremely evil wizard player?
Well, yeah, breaking the rules is pretty evil. Contigency only breaks spells into effect on you, not on to other people.
Use magic items to improve your saves. Get the feats that improve saves and initiative as well. Use magical items to boost you DEX, CON and WIS as high as possible. Get a few greater arrows of slaying and a really good bow. Don't bother with your AC although a high Touch AC would be good. If you can go first I would use all of your attacks and use several arrows of slaying. They require a DC 23 Fort save and those aren't the wizard's best save. Bracers of Armor affect Touch AC I believe so those would help.
Fatespinner is right about the Time Stop tactic, It is what any spellcaster who knows the spell would do. I don't know what you can do about that but the best thing is probably to win initiative and hit him with a bunch of Greater Arrows of Slaying that have a few other properties on them Perhaps Flaming and Thundering as well as seeking.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Well, yeah, breaking the rules is pretty evil. Contigency only breaks spells into effect on you, not on to other people.
Hmm.. well... nevermind then. Guess I'm just used to older editions where contingency could uncork all sorts of badness. To be fair, I haven't used it since 3.0.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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To the naysayers:
Your monk idea? Dimensional anchor, forcecage (using the version that has slits through which ranged attacks/spells can pass through), polar ray and/or maximized scorching ray until very dead. Weapon Focus (ray) and gloves of Dexterity make the high touch ACs more manageable. Thank you, please move on.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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RE: Trying to disrupt spellcasting with damage.
An 18th level wizard could (and should) have 21 ranks of Concentration. We'll assume a +2 CON mod and, since this is a one-off fight with only Core rules allowed, I would think that he will probably get Skill Focus (Concentration) as well. Therefore, you're looking at a +26 Concentration check bonus.
If I recall correctly, spell disruption DC is 10 + damage taken (it may or may not also add spell level, I can't recall). I think you'll find it fairly difficult to deal over 20 damage in a single shot with a bow (since Manyshot requires a full-round action and cannot, therefore, be 'readied'). Let's assume you manage to get a single shot in that deals 25 damage (a generous estimate). He needs an 11 to save the spell. If spell level is a factor (I don't think it is...), then he would need a natural 20 for a 9th level spell.
Check the rules and find out. I believe you'll find it hard to deal over 20 damage with a bow shot, though, and thus your spell disruption plans may have hit a snag (unless you crit, in which case you should be fine!).
Assuming a +5 flaming shock greatbow with Greater Weapon Specialization, if you rolled max damage and got Point Blank Shot on it, you would deal 32 damage. Presumably, Point Blank Shot will not come into play for your opening shot, so removing that, let's look at the "average" damage: 6 for the bow, 3 for flaming, 4 for shock, 5 for enchantment, 4 for Greater Weap. Spec. That's a total of 22. Keep this in mind if you are counting on spell disruption to save your hide. A smart wizard player will probably also choose items to boost his CON to prevent such things, so his bonus will probably actually be higher than my estimate by 1-4 points.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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To the naysayers:
Your monk idea? Dimensional anchor, forcecage (using the version that has slits through which ranged attacks/spells can pass through), polar ray and/or maximized scorching ray until very dead. Weapon Focus (ray) and gloves of Dexterity make the high touch ACs more manageable. Thank you, please move on.
Bah. The same crap works on the fighter, just replace dimensional anchor with improved invisibility. At least the monk has the innate ability to close with the teleporting wizard, generally make saves, and has a higher touch AC than the fighter. It's not a slam-dunk, but it's a better shot.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I think this thought experiment would benefit from looking at it from the other side of the coin - what can the wizard do to defeat the fighter. The way this thread is going, the wizard is assumed to be getting off anywhere from 2-3 spells and the fighter is just standing there like an idiot.
Some additional tactics to consider:
1. Do 50 hps of damage. That'll force a massive damage save.
2. Poison.
3. Things other than damage that the wizard can do. An 18th level fighter is going to have over 100 hp easily. Rather than carve through that, a smart wizard is going to be slinging domination effects, stat damage, and other non-hp attacks.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Some additional tactics to consider:
1. Do 50 hps of damage. That'll force a massive damage save.
True enough. Based on the fact that they're using Core 3 rules only, though, I can only assume that they are using the RAW for massive damage. I think massive damage rules are optional to begin with and, even if they do decide to use them, the save DC is 15 by the RAW. The fighter laughs.
2. Poison.
Again, the fighter's high Fortitude save should utterly obliterate all but the most devastating poisons and even those will probably fail (especially if the fighter is a dwarf, which I think the OP mentioned he was planning on). The only way for the wizard to make poison a viable option is to use various spells to drop his CON.......
3. Things other than damage that the wizard can do. An 18th level fighter is going to have over 100 hp easily. Rather than carve through that, a smart wizard is going to be slinging domination effects, stat damage, and other non-hp attacks.
Exactly. Stat damage is the wizard's friend in this fight. Protection from negative energy will stop the level drains and the death effects, but I'm not sure it will prevent things like bestow curse or ray of enfeeblement. I'd have to look up the spell to be sure.
My advice to the fighter: find a way to win initiative, get into melee, and SHRED him with Power Attack and a two-handed weapon before he can say "Abracadabra." Once that time stop hits the table, your life becomes HELL. Look for items that grant you the ability to teleport or something that gives you insane speed boosts, even if only for one round. Melee is where you will reign, not ranged. Oh, and see if you can get some Int-draining poison (I'm not sure if there are many). Wizards suck at Fort saves and if his Int drops below 19, he can kiss time stop and the rest of his 9th level spells goodbye.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Sorry, those were meant to be tactics against the wizard. My fault for posting in the way I did. Poison and massive damage are a danger to the wizard.
My advice to the fighter: find a way to win initiative, get into melee, and SHRED him with Power Attack and a two-handed weapon before he can say "Abracadabra." Once that time stop hits the table, your life becomes HELL. Look for items that grant you the ability to teleport or something that gives you insane speed boosts, even if only for one round. Melee is where you will reign, not ranged.
I agree. A bow is a waste of time. Crank up initive, get in his face, make sure you have reach, and do not under any circumstances let him get out.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Another thing to think about:
Is your friend really the bad-a$$ wizard player he claims to be? He might not even think to employ advanced tactics like we're setting up here and you might be able to trounce him because he didn't plan appropriately.
For the purposes of advice, however, we must assume that your friend is not an idiot. :D
Manyshot is a standard action, I believe.
The ready action plan stands if such proves to be the case.
Granted, a two-hander with power attack will mince a wizard in a round or two at ANY level, but getting into melee and staying there for the round or two before the aforementioned time stop comes out will prove difficult. Logistically, a bow is easier to handle.
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Fatespinner: NICE...... >:) Remind me to never, EVER face off against you in a spell duel.
Oh, and about the assessment that the mage will have only ~60 hp. One word, five letters:
G N O M E
I've seen a gnome wizard have hp equal to the party's fighter over a spread of levels. All I can say is get a higher initiative in on this guy. Oh, and the combat should probably be run three times, with best of two out of three determining it. You know, just to throw out any oddballs of random chance.
Come on, guys, let's hear some fighter counter strategies! I'm more of a wizard player, myself, but I'm still interested in an even match up. I'd suggest something like a gem of trueseeing and a bow (as you've already mentioned). Don't use a melee weapon- you have to waste time moving up to the wizard, and if he goes airborne, you're screwed. I echo the comment that readied actions are your friend.
Couldn't you use manyshot during a readied action? In that case, you'd have to weigh even bothering to attack on your round. It may be smarter to just constantly ready and attack when you can disrupt his castings.
That is what I am trying to suggest. Don't bother with actually attacking him as a standard action. Win the initiative and then every attack after that should be a readied action. If you disrupt his spells that way, you have a decent shot of winning. Using only the 3 core books, there aren't many good ways for a Wizard build to bypass a high initiative fighter who hits for high damage on a readied attack every round as soon as the wiz trys to cast anything. The key is you have to take away some of the wizards tactical options, and you MUST go before he does to set up the readied action. In addition to the readied actions, have a few tricks up your sleave like an arrow with a silence spell attached to it and other similar things. That way if he adapts to the readied attack to disrupt spellcasting the whole battle thing, then you have another card you can play. If it turns into a war of attrition, your superior hp will probably let you win as long as you don't let him get out of your range. If he wins range, he wins period. Don't let him get away from you with teleports and the like unless you can do the same thing. A helm of teleportation perhaps or a ring of flying paired with boots of speed.
Silence combined with poison. Maybe make the arrow wounding too?
After all this build up, you have GOT to post each and every detail of this fight when it's done. :)
I agree with ol' fire breath on this one.
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One more thing to remember is you have to think of this in terms of the guy whos playing the wizard as much as in terms of the things the wizard class can do. Most people who play wizards are looking at the big bang/flash combo effects. It leaves them vulnerable to obvious things they don't think about. Few people when designing an 18th level Wizard for a fight against a fighter are going to bother with preparing many if any spells with silent spell for example. They generally aren't going to think you will have a way to keep them from speaking. Try to find chinks like that in how he plays to use in conjunction with the other advice you are getting in this thread. Don't be afraid to hit them below the belt. Think about things like using Quaal's feather token tree to change the battlefield at an inopportune moment. Consider purchasing a Daern's instant fortress to spring on him for 10d10 points of damage if he is caught in it's growth.
I'm not saying that you should do all these things, but you should definately think outside the box. You want to be able to suprise him if he is able to negate your primary plan of attack.
Also, use his tricks against him. Get a ring of spell storing and maybe have a few spells in there. Perhaps web, greater dispel magic ( X 2 or X 3), and one or two other spells. Maybe a ring with a few cleric spells. ~WEG~ Why not?
~innocent look~ Can we say Tangelfoot Bag? Get close and get him with a net! The Wizard will be weakest in HP, Fort and reflex saves. Hit him there. Trip and "disarm" him. A helpless wizard is a doomed wizard.
Hmmm. I agree with the above when it comes to winning the battle. But, if the intent is to see who can win in fighter vs. wizard, that's kind of outside the spirit of the confrontation. ANY character could do those things- the wizard could throw them at the fighter, or one wizard at another, or two fighters in a match, or a rogue/bard/cleric free for all. It's not competition between the classes anymore, so much as "who's got the best idea of how to use this magic item?"
I realize that's a thin line between the throwing of a Daern's instant fortress and just using a poisoned bow with greater slaying arrows and silence effects, but I feel there is a difference. Just my opinion.
Also, do not forget the trusty bolos. It would be worth a try.
Also, use his tricks against him. Get a ring of spell storing and maybe have a few spells in there. Perhaps web, greater dispel magic ( X 2 or X 3), and one or two other spells. Maybe a ring with a few cleric spells. ~WEG~ Why not?
Now this I don't see as a problem so much. Just seems... more legit somehow.
Oh, and what does "WEG" mean?
WEG = Wicked Evil Grin.
Of course, since I am a silver dragon, I should not be evil.
