I was just sitting here thinking... one of the reasons I haven't completed my "God Project," the ongoing effort to create a homebrew pantheon that pleases me, is that I like the core gods, who originate in Greyhawk, too much.
I was also thinking about the Realms. I've always had an interest in running a good FR game, but the gods don't grip and move me nearly as much as the Greyhawk bunch. Then, I had a radical thought.
What would the ramifications be if I ran FR using the core deities? Firstly, I'd scrap the Time of Troubles. It's not necessary and I don't like having to take into account that it's only been approximately two decades since that major event occured, in-game time. It feels like such a thing should still be a major factor in adventures, and I'd rather not deal with it.
Eberron has it's smaller, closely-nit pantheons and alternate planar structure/cosmology/belief system, which seems like it would be very hard to change. However, the Realms really doesn't have a radically different role for its gods than Greyhawk, it seems, and more over, most of the FR deities have analogues to Greyhawk gods. Would I run into trouble if I congealed Torm and Tyr into Heironeous, Ilmater and Lathander into Pelor, and so on?
Or is this a concept so dangerous that secret organizations from both worlds are going to send planar agents to kill me now? :)
That's a really fun idea. I'm curious to see how it goes. Personally I've always found the Faerun pantheon a lot more colorful and interesting--but heck even I'd enjoy playing a variant campaign with the Greyhawk gods in Forgotten Realms. I'd love to see a campaign journal on it so I can follow along whenever the game ends up happening.
EDIT: Pelor for Illmater? That's just wierd. Illmater is a god of redemptive suffering--a Christ figure almost--who suffers for all of Faerun so they don't have to suffer as much. If you're looking for a good Illmater, try Rao. He'd work tons better!
By "Greyhawk gods," I more correctly meant the core ones. The reason I lumped Ilmater in with Pelor is because of the Healing domain issue (one person once considered a radiant servant of Pelor when looking of FR and realized that there were two gods, Lathander and Ilmater, that really jumped to the fore as replacements).
What I would do, if I carried through with this, is to replace the FR gods that have strong analogues in the core pantheon (Torm and Tyr replaced with Heironeous, for example), get rid of the redundant minor gods whose portfolios are now more or less covered by some core god, and leave the others who aren't pre-empted (such as Selune, since there's no "core" moon goddess). It would be a pretty wierd mesh, and I'm not completely sure that I'm comfortable with it as I contemplate it. I was just curious what thoughts my fellow Paizonians had.
I don't think you'd have too hard of a time with it. As far as the Weave is concerned...why not just keep Mystryl, who was a servant of Boccob, who sacrificed herself when Karsus cast his Insta God spell, and just don't reintroduce Mystra, just keep Boccob. Maybe Mystryl's sacrifice deeply hurt Boccob, which is why he's "The Uncaring."
Overall, I wouldn't think there would be issues, but there are some individual areas that you might want to pay attention to.
It would be a pretty wierd mesh, and I'm not completely sure that I'm comfortable with it as I contemplate it. I was just curious what thoughts my fellow Paizonians had.
I think it would be great. I would play it. It'd be a fresh twist on an established setting. Though for neatness I would just eliminate everything that isn't a core deity. Just get rid of gods like Selune entirely, replace the ones that have correlaries, lump together the ones that fit together nicely. I wouldn't sweat the history or the particular nuances of stuff like the weave--you're kinda' making your own thing here so things are gonna' be different anyway.
I'm not sure exactly what it is that I like about this idea so much--it just seems like a cool way to shake things up. Like when Superman's pod landed in Gotham instead of Metropolis and he was raised by the Wayne family, it's got that same kind of great "what if" quality to it. I think if you made too many concessions I'd be afraid you'd lose that.
Lilith raises an interesting point with Mystra/Mystryl and the Weave. Not sure what I would do about Karsus and the whole thing, but one of the things that really really annoys me about FR is that the primary deity of magic is Neutral Good. I would rather have Boccob the Uncaring, who can be worshiped by the most saintly, Gandalf-ish wizard in the world and the most heinous, twisted sorcerer in the world, than have a connotation that "magic" itself, in the pure sense, is somehow "good." Just rubs me wrong.
The unfortunate thing is that I'll be first trying this out in a solo game with a player who admires the Realms but doesn't really know much about it. He played all the PC Baldur's Gate games, as well as Icewind Dale, and Neverwinter Nights I & II. Therefore, he just knows the big name guys in the setting and has made a few cursory examinations of the pantheon, and really likes figures like Bane and Torm and such. Therefore, I'm encountering minor resistance, more like a quiet dissatisfaction from 100% of my players (since he's the only one), which makes going through with it kind of difficult.
What's worse is that he doesn't find the core deities all that exciting. He feels Heironeous is a "weenie;" Obad-Hai is... I don't know, but he doesn't like him; and Boccob he simply finds boring. Therefore, if I do this, he's really in favor of some very wierd hybridization. Thus, I'm not completely sure what I'm going to do about this. God, I wish I had a regular group of players again!
No particular reason, but NO!!!!!
I feel better. Go ahead Saern, it of course is your game to do with what you will. I'll of course offer you and invite to the wonderful world of Greyhawk. I'm sure you'll love it once you delve deeper.
Oh, yeah, my player also dislike the general idea of Greyhawk. He doesn't really know a thing about it, other than hearing that it is "low(er) magic" than other settings, and he doesn't like that for some reason. He feels that it's set in a more historical Medieval times mode, and doesn't want that. I don't have any official Greyhawk stuff, other than Dragon's massive and wonderful four-part map, and thus don't really have anything to give him to look over. Unfortuantely, I also don't think I'll go out and buy any Greyhawk stuff. I mainly deal with my homebrew, and because I've already invested in the books and like most of it, when I derivate for a break or whatever, I'll probably just use the Realms.
Whoa! That's different. I was thinking you were looking at running a variant campaign with people looking for the best of Greyhawk and Faerun--not for someone looking for a straight Forgotten Realms fix.
Scratch what I've said before. Do that some other time with a different group. What you need is a primer--a quick blurb on a shotgun of the most popular gods so you can run the game with an index card next to you giving the who's who. Granted the gods are awesome. I'd love to give you the primer right here if you're interested but I'm not sure if you're more in the camp where you don't know anything about the gods of Faerun and are stumped about trying to handle them all--or if you're really familiar with them, but just don't like them as well.
Like I said, if it's the former, look no further--you need only ask and I'll send some crib notes your way. If it's the second, I'd suggest you just lump it and use the canon gods anyway. The guy wants real Faerun, I'd give it to him as good as you can make it.
one of the things that really really annoys me about FR is that the primary deity of magic is Neutral Good. I would rather have Boccob the Uncaring, who can be worshiped by the most saintly, Gandalf-ish wizard in the world and the most heinous, twisted sorcerer in the world, than have a connotation that "magic" itself, in the pure sense, is somehow "good." Just rubs me wrong.
One of the things to remember about Mystra is that she is only NG because much of her still remembers being mortal. Ed has implied that she is going to slowly become more and more LN, like the previous Mystra, especially since she has all of her memories and experiences within her. On top of that, Mystra is allied to all of the gods of magic in the Faerunian pantheon, including Azuth (patron of wizards and those that practice organized magic, LN, and her right hand being for a very long time), Savras (N patron of divination, one time rival of Azuth when Azuth was a mortal himself), and Velsharoon (NE god of necromancy, former Red Wizard of Thay and ascended to godhood by Talos . . . when he ticked off Talos, he ran and hid under Mystra's skirts). Mystra has even come into conflict with her former (in their mortal forms) lover Kelemvor over her support of Velsharoon.
I understand what you are saying, but there is a lot of evidence to support that the "office" of Mystra is LN, its just that the current Mystra just happens to remember her mortal life enough to keep her NG for the time being. Its not a way of saying that magic is itself a good phenomenon.
One of the things to remember about Mystra is that she is only NG because much of her still remembers being mortal. Ed has implied that she is going to slowly become more and more LN, like the previous Mystra, especially since she has all of her memories and experiences within her. On top of that, Mystra is allied to all of the gods of magic in the Faerunian pantheon, including Azuth (patron of wizards and those that practice organized magic, LN, and her right hand being for a very long time), Savras (N patron of divination, one time rival of Azuth when Azuth was a mortal himself), and Velsharoon (NE god of necromancy, former Red Wizard of Thay and ascended to godhood by Talos . . . when he ticked off Talos, he ran and hid under Mystra's skirts). Mystra has even come into conflict with her former (in their mortal forms) lover Kelemvor over her support of Velsharoon.
I understand what you are saying, but there is a lot of evidence to support that the "office" of Mystra is LN, its just that the current Mystra just happens to remember her mortal life enough to keep her NG for the time being. Its not a way of saying that magic is itself a good phenomenon.
Savras is actually LN, which supports your theory. There are also hints in Magic of Faerûn that Mystra would like to assimilate the Shadow Weave and was willing to even sacrifice her goodness for bringing an end to the conflict with Shar. This would probably make her N rather than LN, bringing her even closer to Boccob's alignment.
Your comment on the 'Realms vs Eberron' thread that 'A lot of its history and lore revolves around the activities of gods' is mistaken: gods rarely intervene personally in the Realms.I was actually trying to reference the Time of Troubles. From what I've heard, both in the setting's book, and from posts of FR fans here on the boards and even from what novels I have read, there is more emphasis on the gods themselves. I didn't mean to imply that they come down and pull Deus ex Machina all over the place, but it just seems that the Realms pantheon is much more dynamic and active and influential than in many other settings, although not to the point of breaking the "traditional role" of D&D gods.
Stupid gellatinous cube seems to have gotten my last post. I tried to fix it, but it doesn't seem to be working. We'll see if it resolves itself later; if not, meh.
Whoa! That's different. I was thinking you were looking at running a variant campaign with people looking for the best of Greyhawk and Faerun--not for someone looking for a straight Forgotten Realms fix.
Scratch what I've said before. Do that some other time with a different group. What you need is a primer--a quick blurb on a shotgun of the most popular gods so you can run the game with an index card next to you giving the who's who. Granted the gods are awesome. I'd love to give you the primer right here if you're interested but I'm not sure if you're more in the camp where you don't know anything about the gods of Faerun and are stumped about trying to handle them all--or if you're really familiar with them, but just don't like them as well.
Like I said, if it's the former, look no further--you need only ask and I'll send some crib notes your way. If it's the second, I'd suggest you just lump it and use the canon gods anyway. The guy wants real Faerun, I'd give it to him as good as you can make it.
Well, I don't know a lot of the really juicy details like the above mentioned post detailing Velsharoon's ascension and later quarrel with his former sponsor, but then again, I don't know that level of detail when it comes to the core gods.
The reason I vastly prefer running my homebrew most of the time is that I feel comfortable with it; I "know where everything is." Same thing with the core pantheon. You can have one worshipper of Olidammara that is like Robin Hood, and another who is a merciless cutthroat. A psycopath can pray to Erythnul, but so can a barbarian tribe seeking strength. Wee Jas can be a respectable goddess of order, love, and proper death, or she can be a patron of necromancy and vain greed. Heironeous can sponsor a caring, understanding priest or a militant, might-makes-right paladin. Those who are less ambiguous are still great characters- Nerull and Pelor, for example.
All of this accomplished in such a small number of deities, who are still far from bland. They have interesting histories, as well (Heironeous/Hextor).
Whereas in the Realms, these archetypes seem very subdivided. Olidammara has effectively been "split" between Beshaba (bad luck), Tymora (good luck), Mask (theivery), a little bit of Cyric (lies and intrigue), and some of Waukeen (it's a stretch, but many of Olidammara's worshippers seem interested in the aquisition of wealth).
I've studdied the pantheon listings and deity descriptions in the back of the FRCS several times, and don't get me wrong. I do like the Realms gods. I'm just so much more comfortable with the core pantheon. It's a DM comfort thing.
I've glanced at Faiths and Pantheons before, but it looked similar to Deities and Demigods, which I found to be a thoroughly useless book and regretted buying. Therefore, I wasn't so keen on Faiths and Pantheons, but perhaps it's worth a second look.
And regarding the player, he does like the core pantheon, too. He thinks Nerull and Hextor and Vecna and Erytnul and Pelor and Kord are all awesome. His fascination with the other gods (FR) is, in some cases, due to them be interesting entities. Others, it just seems like it's some form of idolatry because "they're cool" on general principal. He feels that the invasion of Waterdeep by Mephistopheles from Hordes of the Underdark should be canon, and would love to have his character introduced to Elminster and Drizz't just because they're awesome and badasses and so he could have "met" them. I have no interest in bringing such characters into my games whatsoever.
So, I'm confronting a DM comfort issue (I'm kinda neurotic, so that can be a big deal for me) and a minor mis-match in player/DM gaming styles. The other problem is that I'm expecting to run this game, but he hasn't written up any character background yet, so I've got nothing to put my creative energies into other than the world itself. God I wish I had a full group again!
Well just for the record, I really thought the Avatar Crisis was awesome and I've got much respect for the producers to shake up their setting like that. I always wonder why the great fire and brimstone, parting the Red Sea stuff is supposed to ONLY happen way in the pasts of settings. I've always enjoyed games that are brushing the dust off from huge events that have reshaped things.
That's secondary though. The big thing is you have a choice to make here--and I think both will work fine as long as you choose in advance. Are you going to run the game for you as a DM or for your player?
If you are looking to run it for your player then I'd research a particular hero from Forgotten Realms and have your character's story dovetail with his. For example (and here's the rust showing) I think the latest Drizzt thing was the War of the Spider Queen. Find out whatever you can about that and fix the game so that somewhere in the first few sessions he hears there's a drow who's been following the same line of questions--some good drow operating out of some northern keep somewhere. Then watch his eyes pop out. It's fun.
The other way is to play the game for you. Keep the action contained somewhere remote with its own stuff going on--someplace like Icewind Dale, where most people aren't too religious anyway and those that are are totemists and stuff. Introduce a handful of gods, ideally gods that are parallels with Greyhawk gods. These are the gods worshipped in this area. That keeps things nice and controlled. Either research the heck out of one of the Ten Towns and set everything there and the wilderness thereabouts, or else just point to a patch of tundra and make some stuff there.
I say choose, but honestly I think you could probably even do both--or at least a mix of a little of one and a little of the other. Drizzt's friend comes into one of the Ten Towns, and while it's not Drizzt per se, the guy rubs shoulders with him and tells all sorts of stories about him. Like meeting some unknown guy who works for Dragon. He's not Erik Mona but could tell you Erik stories until your ears fall off. That kinda' thing. It turns out the new kid is about the same level as your PC and the two of them go off to do--whatever.
Thanks, Faraer. I'll look into that link. I think I'll just suck it up and deal with the FR gods as they are and try to come to know/love them better. The AD&D book sounds like it provides just the information I need to feel "comfortable" with the Realms-ian pantheon.
Grimcleaver, thanks for the advice. The idea of trying to build a game around his desire to actually meet such famous people was so alien to my typical campaign design process that I hadn't actually entertained it. This should be interesting.