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So the players are making pretty decent work of the goblins, the sneaks are doing some decent damage thanks to hiding and ambushing, but the two reach combatants are making sure that their first attack is generally their last attack.
Drakthar makes a little appearance after they've cleared out pretty much the whole first section and does option two (summoned 3 bat swarms and dominated the fighter).
The fighter fails his will save, plus his second will save to overcome the dominate to attack his friend and proceeds to crit the mage, instantly killing him. The swarm keeps the "strider" ally occupied and the Ranger/Scout runs away. After being forced to go after his best friend he finally makes the will save though and they managed to kill off the swarms (barely). So the 2 of them plus the strider leave the dungeon to b%#+& out the ranger/scout.
Why is this campaign made so difficult? Drakthar didn't even get anywhere near combat, and I don't see how they'll ever be able to pin him down. They're resting for the night and I'm probably gonna bring in an extra player to help fill out their numbers. It's very hard to do a 12 adventure campaign with one over-arcing story if you don't have any of the same characters from the original group (right now only one original member, and it's the second adventure!)
I had the same experience. After reading some of the posts on here, I thought Drakthar would be a cakewalk, but instead, he was almost a TPK. Thankfully one of my players is a necromancer and managed to snap off a Command Undead from a scroll at the very last second. This was AFTER they had determined he was a vampire and gotten the silver/magic combo prerequisites for fighting him. Eventually they killed him with a combination of trickery, a giant mirror and the help of a higher level cleric of Wee Jas.
The first fight with Drakthar wasn't much of a combat. They passed their saves, but they couldn't do enough damage and he doesn't have too high of an attack bonus. Once the wolves started getting close, they bugged out.
The second time, they were prepared (because of a good Know(religion) check) and they pretty much pwned him. The chair was an interesting fight, though... in fact, they didn't know what it was and that made it more exciting for them then Drakthar.
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Why is this campaign made so difficult? Drakthar didn't even get anywhere near combat, and I don't see how they'll ever be able to pin him down. They're resting for the night and I'm probably gonna bring in an extra player to help fill out their numbers. It's very hard to do a 12 adventure campaign with one over-arcing story if you don't have any of the same characters from the original group (right now only one original member, and it's the second adventure!)
I dont know how many PCs are being used in your game, but dont forget this campaign was written on the premise of 6 PCs (not 4 as most are). Perhaps thats where you're unbalanced issues should point towards.
If you only have 4 characters, then I suggest having them advance 1 level beyond what each chapter tells you to be when they begin.
Robert
The Dungeon Adventure Paths are really deadly if played straight from the book. If you want to keep as much of your original cast of PCs as possible, I would suggest allowing some more NPC aid (if your party doesn't have a cleric or healer of any sort you could beef up Ruphus Laro a little bit, put him one level behind the PCs and send him along as support) and dropping the penalties from the Raise Dead spell, so long as the character's body isn't completely disintegrated. This can work as a kind of damage control for your campaign.
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Healing isn't a problem at all, we have a Favored Soul healer who knows faith's healing, and they all worship St. Cuthbert (my version) except for the Ranger/Scout who worships Wee Jas (my equivalent anyway).
I've been sending Striders on the adventures to help them, but I'm gonna see if I can add another player or two to the party to help even things up. Normally I can fudge the dice a bit but couldn't fudge the other player's dice =p
I had Drakthar kill of my mage during this adventure, my only death to date. I had Drakthar use hit and run tactics continously and it worked beautifully.
I was fearful he would be too much for the party but as soon as they had a full round of hand to hand combat with him it was all over.
I am a big believer in fudging the odd dice roll, afterall that's why we have the DMs screen ;). If the party is being decimated regularly don't be afraid of the occasional 'good luck' going their way. Some people pride themselves on always staying true to the rules and dice - I'm not one of them.We all play for fun afterall and if the players are not enjoying it because they are up to their fifth character each then I say fudge!
Delvesdeep
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I am a big believer in fudging the odd dice roll, afterall that's why we have the DMs screen ;). If the party is being decimated regularly don't be afraid of the occasional 'good luck' going their way. Some people pride themselves on always staying true to the rules and dice - I'm not one of them.We all play for fun afterall and if the players are not enjoying it because they are up to their fifth character each then I say fudge!
Delvesdeep
I agree whole-heartedly...or at least I used to. I noticed a trend from my long-term players that they would take too many chances and begin to ignore obvious warnings and push the envelope to the point that proper role-playing be damned; this is because they started to develop a sense of immortality and safety net because they realized that I wasnt keen on TPKs or killing characters off at all if I didnt have to, and so they realized that I was fudging the dice from time to time.
So then I addressed the issue and the mature gamers admitted to those tendencies.
So over the past 6 months I started rolling out in the open so that there was no question as to whether or not I was fudging dice in their favor. They realized soon enought that they had better pick better stratgies and better discrestion or else they could easily find themselves in over their heads with no remorse.
Now the downside to this is: that clever or savvy players see what is rolled, and can add quickly in their heads just how high they're hitting, or how high their opposed grapples/trips are, or saves are, and so they can then begin to use that info to covertly metagame to their favor.
So with the onset of SCAP around the corner, I believe I am going to address to the party and follow these guidelines:
I have a program (DMs Familiar: thanks Todd) that I use primarily for my games. The program does all the dice rolling so the players are not privvy to the results. So I am going to use the program for the most part just do to convenience and the signifance in saved time it provides; BUT if I notice or feel that PCs go into a situation that they should have known better than to avoid (For instance: lets say that they foolishly decide to attack V in Beholder form when he shows up in Malachite Fortress to retreive Terrem) then I will revert for that combat to roll out in front so that they can see first hand just how screwed they are, and deal with the consequences by neutral arbiter: the dice - and only the dice.
Robert
I agree with you....to a point. It is all about how often you do it and the circumstances involved.
During a big fight when TPK is a realistic chance, I will roll in front of them to let them know that they will live and die by the random nature of the dice.
But in other situations when a character may be killed before they even have a chance to establish it, then fudge I will.
I pride myself on keeping my players guessing and making sure they realise how well (if at all) they succeed is determined by their actions and decisions. Chance certainly plays it's part but I never let it interfere in the enjoyment of a group that has been together for decades.
TPK are overrated. Who actual wins? Who actual benefits?
This group played the same characters for over 15 years and after one game and one bad roll later they found themselves teleported into a rock face killing the group.
They still mourn for those characters who they had built up such vibrant, detailed histories and personalities for. I still regret in many ways that I didn't ignore the roll.
I don't believe the players expect any favours or that I will fudge rolls. Two characters have already died during the SCAP but they found means to resurrect them. I could have that difficult too and if I stuck by the rules as written the players would have had to roll up new characters and start again. I would have lost all the work I had put into them and connecting them to the plot and they would have felt disconnected to the party and game until they rebuilt once more so where's the benefit.
I believe in fun. I like to come up with create methods of making the players enjoy the SCAP. If you fudge a roll from time to time without the players realising it to ensure this enjoyment continues, then I say go for it.
While some TPK are unavoidable if you can avoid them without tipping off you party then go for it.
IMHO Never let a rule or dice roll ruin your game. I'e learned that over the last few decades of playing.
Delvesdeep
Drakthar almost ended my campaign this last Saturday night because of interparty strife due to domination.
How we got there: The party (average of 5 players per session) insists on plowing straight into dungeons heedless of all hazards. The frontline of the marching order is a half-orc fighter of 5 level now and ALL his feats are invested in toughness and improved toughness. He has over 50 HPs and nigh unstoppable. Since they're so cocky and have the subtlety of a bunkerbuster bomb, rather than boost the CRs I decided to get the goblin mobs into tactics. Wow what a difference it makes.
I had the goblins create obstacles at strategic chokepoints and man it with crossbowmen (+4 AC from cover-my pcs HATE that!) shooting from behind the barricades. With potions and adepts backing them up... by the time the pcs could climb to the top of the barricades and attack the goblins hand-to-hand, they had used up lots of resources (spell points* and potions and wands).
Then once the pcs breached a barricade they'd be charged by the worg riding silent wolf goblins and the main goblin hordes. Nevermind the goblin archers on the elevated ledges- what a frustration for the pcs!
The pcs have had to retreat and come back three seperate times. Each time Drakthar tried to dominate the fighter up front and he keeps making his Will saves. But Drakthar's defenses keep getting weaker each time and finally he used some of the half-orc mercenaries to man the defenses. So after this Drakthar basically has no goblins left and a few half-orcs but he manages to dominate 2 of the party members while they are repairing the rope bridge.
I just took the dominated players aside and told them to get the rest of the party to LEAVE and not allow the others to come back again under any circumstances and also to avoid all temples in the town. Avoid the temples at all costs!
The party paladin notices something is up but cannot detect any evil and naturally he goes to Jenya and I have her tell the paladin to get the suspected persons to come to the temple right away.
<evil DM laugh for setting up the strife>
Mayhem ensues when the paladin tries to get the two dominated characters to go to the temple. At one point he is leading one of the two characters there and once the dominated character realizes that he's being taken to the temple he quickly excuses himself to use the lavatory. Of course he ditches the paladin and just goes back home.
Anyway once the dominated characters are confronted about not wanting to go back to Drakthar's domain and go to the temple they get into fisticuffs (the non-dominated pcs start it so the dominated characters are just protecting themselves). The party diplomat, a halfing (don't call him a Hobbit) cleric gets upset IN game and OUT of game because the dominated players won't just trust him and let him cast a spell on them. So the cleric takes his ball and goes home and the player prepares to do the same thing. Thin-skinned player!
It ends when the paladin (kicked out of the party lair) goes to Jenya and uses diplomacy to get her to come down to the party lair. It isn't long before she is able to notice that things are strange and dispel the dominations. But the players sure were very upset at this whole thing. Feathers ruffled! And Drakthar still has some surprises left... Between the lizards, dire bat, the 2 "blue duke" npcs and the rest of the half-orc mercenaries Drakthar should still have something in the tank. I just have to figure out how to arrange the defenses for the next incursion...
-Darren
*Am I the only person who thinks that using the spell point system from UA makes the spellcasting classes EVEN more badassed and more powerful than before?
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I don't believe the players expect any favours or that I will fudge rolls. Two characters have already died during the SCAP but they found means to resurrect them. I could have that difficult too and if I stuck by the rules as written the players would have had to roll up new characters and start again. I would have lost all the work I had put into them and connecting them to the plot and they would have felt disconnected to the party and game until they rebuilt once more so where's the benefit.
I believe in fun. I like to come up with create methods of making the players enjoy the SCAP. If you fudge a roll from time to time without the players realising it to ensure this enjoyment continues, then I say go for it.
While some TPK are unavoidable if you can avoid them without tipping off you party then go for it.
IMHO Never let a rule or dice roll ruin your game. I'e learned that over the last few decades of playing.
Delvesdeep
Oh yeah, I agree with this without a doubt. And for a long time I would look the other way to avoid just such problematic issues that arise for having to have a new character be introduced: losing all that personal tie-ins to the campaign.
However, like I said, it unfortunately desensitized my players. They had no fear of dying anymore and became bold and foolish on purpose.
Now to bring everything back under control I started to have to do that in moderation.
However, I still do believe in ideals and sentiments you illustrated above regarding the elements of fun and the level of involvement PCs can become to a story.
Robert
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Generally I prefer to only kill my players when it is a result of their own stupidity. Such as when our Dragon Shaman HAD to have the gems from the eyes of the statue in Malachite Fortress. I didn't have the animated chain even leave the statue for a while.
He got cocky and though he could just hop up, attack it and hop back since he had his healing aura. The others were unwilling to help him waste time and resources over two gems. Eventually he got the thing down to less than half HP so it started chasing him out of the room. The healer decided to grapple with it, it started constricting so he quickly escaped the grapple. Dragon Shaman went after it some more, until it critted him and he died. Interestingly that player is the player for the fighter now.
My players like this system, they know they're still vulnerable if they don't play smart, but they get to have a connection with their characters to the storyline. With the dead mage (who was a Shackleborn) his new char is the mage's brother (and apprentice to Maavu and also a Shackleborn) and is going to return to Cauldron with Maavu from Redgorge looking for news of his brother (last he'd heard their village further out was destroyed by Lizardfolk) so I get to keep the tie-in and even get to make a new one!
I've had only the one party member die, and his replacement character is so unpopular that the party is trying to get the money to raise him ASAP. Of course, it's Shebeleth who they're going to be asking...and I've figured out how to make this work in game. See, I wanted the opportunity to use all the cool dreams that Delvesdeep and others have put together. So with Adimarchus' priest doing the raising, the half-orc paladin will now be infected with a touch of the madness, resulting in the dreams hitting him. And of course, the paladin already took the Scarred Soul trait, making him a Shackleborn, which is the reason Shebeleth is willing to raise him.
Still, when the party thief would rather pay to have the paladin raised then talk to the dwarf, you know that the dwarf is not well-liked.