Well, post your stuff here! Information needs to be shared, and there will be another DM with your dilemma at some point. :)
That being said, increasing everything by 2 should work. I would have a couple of mooks (toss-in mobs to fight) ready in case it gets too easy.
Don't forget, if the encounters are too easy, you can always award less XP for it.
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Personally, I find that every two players above the norm (i.e. 4) should add +1 to each encounter's EL. I say EL, because it's often times better to include one or two more baddies than to scale up those present, at least when no classed NPCs are involved. Obviously, if your group is designed to mow down large hordes and your guys don't have many resistances, than complications arise.
Since this is Age of Worms we're discussing, which is filled with tons of tough bad guys, I'd recommend raising the CR of each monster by 2 (through HD or class levels) to account for the parties' higher level. Since five players will have an easier time than 4, but don't necessarily warrant an extra +1 to EL, you may find it easier to add an additional 1/2 CR to each opponent (it can be fairly easily done with HD advancement rules and exp calculations) or find another method to add an effective ".5" to your encounter.
For example,
Encounter 1 has four CR 10 undead monsters vs. a four-person 10th level party. {EL 14}
Thus, you can make each monster CR 12 (+8 HD, usually) {EL 16}
Then, to account for the 5th party member, you can add one more monster to make the encounter EL 16 + EL 12 {This keeps the exp. rewards equivalent}
If you've got a lot more (or less) monsters than the PCs for the same encounter level, you may need to do more boosting to the beasties (as more than 8 would likely just serve as cannon fodder) or add a weaker "mook" monster to make up the difference. (Ex. Two wormcallers aided by morghs and the like).
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Ok ..let's start with what I hope is an easy one.
In the module, they are about to encounter a Kolyarut Inevitable. The module suggests giving the Inevitable 1-2 levels of fighter.
So I am assuming I would do the following with the Inevitable from the Monster Manual
+2 to its BAB/Grapple and therefore +2 to its Vampirc Touch, Enervation Ray, Longsword, and Slam Attack
+2 to its Fortitude Save
+2 feats from the fighter bonus feats (I was thinking Improved Initiative and Weapon Focus (Touch) (is that even allowed?)
+ 11 HP (2 x 5.5 + 0 Con Bonus)
Increase its CR by +2 (For 2 fighter levels)I think that is it...everything else stays the same?
Well, it is strange that they recommend advancing the kolyarut with fighter levels, since the monster naturally advances via HD. When you give a monster class levels, you should also be giving them elite stats (quick method is +4 to 2 stats, +2 to 2 stats, and +0 to 2 stats) and, depending on their regular method of advancement, additional equipment based on their enhanced treasure value (for creatures that advance via HD normally) or NPC gear (for things, like yuan-ti and minotaurs, that don't naturally grow bigger).
IMHO, it would be better to give the kolyarut +8 construct HD to raise it's CR by 2, and then give it a CR 10 "buddy" (a zelekhut with +4 HD would do) to give you a CR 14.5 for your players. The fighter levels are going to involve less hp (due to no Constitution), weaker saves, the same number of feats, and force you to factor in more powerful gear to make up the difference. In fact, given the inability to raise the Constitution score to great effect, you might just give it the elite stats and call it an even CR 14.5 without any helpers.
To help, here are the basic adjustments for +8 HD:
+6 to its BAB/Grapple and therefore +6 to its Vampirc Touch, Enervation Ray, Longsword, and Slam Attack
+3 to all three saves
+3 feats from construct HD (Improved Initiative is good, I'd also go with Improved Critical (ray) to up it's ranged potential and Improved Toughness to give it some staying power (+1/hp per HD))
+2 or two +1s to it's stats, due to HD gain (I'd go with Strength to up it's melee potential)
+44 HP (8 x 5.5 + 0 Con Bonus)
+21 HP (if you take Improved Toughness)
Increase its CR by +2 (For 8 construct HD)
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Well, no matter the creature type or its stats, you always add 1 to a stat for every 4 HD. That being said, it would be breaking the spirit of the rules to give the black pudding a +1 Int (technically, you add +1 to "nothing", not 0, so it never increases above "nothing. Likewise, you can't give undead a COn score by adding a stat point), and I would personally recommend upgrading its Strength or Constitution.
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Ok...sounds good. Question on base Elder Black Pudding. Its BAB is 15 (HD x 3/4) and it's strength is 26 (+8 bonus). So why is it's Slam attack at +19 instead of +23?I assume the + 12 to it's damage is from 1.5 x Strength bonus?
Thanks! This has been very helpful. I am feeling that the party is not really being challenged and I am afraid that will get bored.
The slam attack is affected by the pudding's size (gargantuan) which applies a -4 penalty to its AC and attack rolls. {I don't have the book in front of me, but I'm assuming the Elder is gargantuan).
And you've assessed the damage correctly.
My old campaign had 5 PCs and two cohorts, and as I didn't understand how to scale beyond 4 PCs, they typically walked all over everything I put against them. The two biggest rules are making sure you have 3-4 encounters per day (at the very least more than one per day) and making sure you account for the extra players.
Personally, I'm scaling a published advenutre, Red Hand of Doom, for a party of 6 PCs that are one level higher than listed, and I find that the best way to scale the encounters is to use the expected experience gain as a foundation. (I.e. recalculate for the higher levels and additional members and match your individual encounters to these numbers).
And now for a harder one
The module suggests that you advance teh Elder Black Pudding by 8HD (Currently a 20HD creature)
So looked at the entry for Black Pudding (10 HD) under advancement and it says up to 30 HD is gargantuan. So I read this to mean making the BP a 28HD creature would NOT increase its size.
Thats correct - the elder version they have appears to be nothing more then an advanced standard issue version. So all Black Puddings between 16HD and 30 HD are Gargantuan.
That being said, I did the following:+2 to CR (+1 / 4HD added)
HP = 5.5 (Average for D10)x10 + 9 (Con Bonus) x10 = +145
BAB should go up by 6? (8 HD increase x 3/4)No feats or Skills because it has No Intelligence score.
Here is where I am stumped.What about ability increase? And if they get these, could I give it an Intelligence of 1 and then give it a feat?
Is that all I do? It states for a regular Elder Black Pudding that "the save DC for the elder black pudding’s acid attack (DC 29) is adjusted for its additional Hit Dice and higher Constitution score. " Should the save be even higher given the fact that it is now a 28HD creature? If so, is there a formula?
Sh
The Acid save DC appears to have the formula 1/2 HD+10+Con bonus. That is a pretty standard issue formula that I have seen before for working out DCs so I'm fairly sure its correct.
As a side note. Your fairly late in the AP so I think advancing all the monsters is really your only option. For players that are having this sort of problem much earlier in the AP. I'd strongly consider leaving well enough alone and waiting for the XP to self correct. The problem with advancing monsters is that it then gives out more XP and your problem persists. If the PCs don't combat as many tough encounters their level advancement will slow down and they will soon be closer to the appropreat level for the types of encounters they are going to face. In theory having more PCs should work the same way. More PCs means dividing the XP among more characters and all of them should advance slower. Hence if one had a 6 PC party at teh start of Age of Worms and simply did not adjust the adventure then the players would need to earn 50% more XP for them all to advance. They would not advance as quickly and soon enough they would be about two levels behind a 4 PC party and be roughly about the correct power for the APs.
Considering how hard the first few adventures in the AP are I doubt you'd even notice much that the players where a little strong for the initial adventures.
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Well, my first caveat is that Flycatcher has been noted as being rather weak in past discussions on this message board (James Jacobs notes the relative weakness of monsters in MMII, shadow spider included).
That being said, if you wish to continue using the listed version, then you should be adding two sorceror levels per CR boost, as they remain "nonassociated" (i.e. worth only .5 CR each) until his levels in sorceror equal his monster hit die. From my memory, I believe shadow spiders have more than 7 HD, so Flycatcher needs 4 more levels of sorceror for the +2 CR boost. After that, I'd recommend adding a cohort, as you mentioned, with either a non-advanced shadow spider (I believe they are 4 CR lower than Flycatcher) or perhaps one or more phase spiders (advanced, if necessary).
On a tangent, I would recommend investigating the shadowcaster of Tome of Magic if you have the source available, as it may prove more thematic and has slightly higher hit points than a sorceror, preventing Flycatcher from being a total pushover. (Shadowcaster levels would function identically, CR-wise, to sorceror levels).
I’m also a fan of adding minions rather than simply advancing existing foes, particularly for climactic battles.
I regularly run a party with 6-7 PCs, occasionally 8. This means I regularly need to increase EL’s by 2 to maintained overall balance. In the past, if a module put one monster in the room, I simply increased the CR of that monster rather than worrying about selecting appropriately-balanced minions to add. This works well . . . as long as your PCs carry a lot of body bags.
For seminal and climactic battles, modules usually set the EL 2 to even 4 levels higher than the party’s level. Where that’s one monster who’s already 2-4 CRs above the party’s level, increasing it to 4-6 CRs above the party’s level means a PC or two are going to die, and TPK is not out of the question.
In contrast, adding minions to buff up the EL usually spreads around the total damage that the PCs take among a larger number of PCs and decreases the overall damage any one foe can dish out. This is ideal for the 6-to-8 PC party because more PCs get adversaries of their own to battle, and, more importantly, it greatly reduces the number of raise dead scrolls the party will need.
Well I'll throw my two cents into the debate about adding minions. I run 6 players three of whom have picked up Dragon Cohorts and one picked up a Lantern Archon Familiar (Greater Teleport at will is phenominally useful).
My experience is that your players will adapt to what your doing so if you often run major battles with dozens of enemies then your players will make characters designed to blow weak opponents apart. If you invariably make the enemy into a sngle big baddie then they will design characters to take that down. If you make a powerful BBEG covered by weak mooks they will work out ways to skip past the mooks and kill the big guy etc.
Personally I would leave the AP alone early on and let the XP system work against them until the power level balances. Your players will have an easier time with some of the encounters after this but a harder time with others. In some cases their numbers will more then compensate for the fact that they are a few levels behind the recomended level for the adventure while in others the sheer power of the big baddie will be daunting to even a large party. I think on average they'll still be a little more powerful then a 4 person party as they will be gaining even more experience from fighting creatures with higher CRs but despite the fact that they will be stronger over all any individual character will be even more vulnerable. Hence the party probably beats the encounter more often but is more likely to loose a player along the way. Personally this is exactly how I like my D&D. Dangerous, with high attrition but the players win in the end and the plot does not get derailed.
That said if you instead decide your going to beef up all the encounters then do something different with them each time. Somtimes up the power of the individual - sometimes give him mooks. Sometimes make it so that all the enemies are of roughly the same power etc. This will add verity and your players won't start designing characters meant to always excel in one style of combat.
My group is usually 6 or 7 PCs... we don't generally allow cohorts though, as combat can be slow enough with all the PCs without adding in sidekicks, lol
Aside from the useful tips given above about advancing CRs and/or adding more mooks:
1. I've also found it useful to not necessarily up the difficulty of the encounters, but to manage the pacing a bit better. The party may have an easier time with the first or second encounter, but if they are hitting five or even six encounters a day, as opposed to the DMG standard four...
2. If you add a bunch of mooks, consider having them use some alternative tactics in combat, especially if they aren't that likely to actually land a straight up hit on the party's frontliners.
- Have them Assist the "real" monsters and maneuver to get flanking positions. This can effective make the "real" monster hit far more often.
- Try to slip (or blitz, depending on the mook's style) past the frontline PCs to threaten and engage the archers & spellcasters.
- Rather than having the mooks try to just make a normal attack, instead have them try to grapple, trip or disarm. If they are only going to hit a relatively low % of the time, try to make that successful roll more important then just a few more HP lost to the party's fighter.
- Use some of the more cooperative feats to make the mooks a bit better. Something like Shield Wall or the Complete Warrior feat that gives you a +4 bonus on flanking if the other flanker has the same feat, etc. I find these feats aren't that useful to PCs, since you have to have another PC take the same feat to get the bonus... but since the mooks are presumably all from the same cookie cutter mold anyways...
Behemoth,
Since it looks like you've got a massive amount of monster-advancing work ahead of you, I would certainly recommend that you open the Monster Manual (or the System Reference Document online) to the section entitled "advancing monsters." This will hopefully save you a boatload of time in the long run-- you can post questions about rules, instead of having to post questions about individual monsters on a case-by-case basis.
That being said, don't feel like you need to be slavish about advancing things, either. Sometimes adding a unique special ability will add to the flavor of your campaign (especially if it fits in with stuff in the other adventures), and you can adjust the CR by maybe +1 to +2 for that, depending on how useful the ability is.
Daughter of 3 years, soaked my Dungeon issue 125# I need the Supplement of Age of Worms Adventure "PDF, or scanned what ever" my D&D community can do running the Adventure re ordered the issues on back order and can not get it in .... party is meeting tomorrow night if someone out there can help please let me know
When adding HD to a creature (let's pick adding 8 HD), how do you determine what its saves increase by? *snip* I know it tells you what are considered 'Good' saves based on the creature type, but I am unsre how this translates into increased saves.
Thanks,
Larry
I usually look at one of the base classes to get an example. Rogue is my favorite class, so I often jump there. ;)
For the rogue, Reflex save has a "good" progression, and the others have a "bad" progression. So it's simply a matter of looking up the value for the creature's HD and plugging it in.
However... That only works when you have 20 or fewer hit dice. There's formulas; I'm just drawing a blank on them. *goes to look in the SRD*
A quick search doesn't come up with it. I'll find it and post it, if nobody else gives you the formula by then...
However... That only works when you have 20 or fewer hit dice. There's formulas; I'm just drawing a blank on them. *goes to look in the SRD*
A quick search doesn't come up with it. I'll find it and post it, if nobody else gives you the formula by then...
Alrighty...
Good save = (HD * .5) + 2
Bad save = (HD * .33)
There's actually a medium save as well, but it's not used in D&D. It does appear in d20 Modern, and some 3rd party stuff has used it.
edit: and always round down. :)