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I am about to start the Champion Games with my group next session and they have a few days of game time to prepare for the games. However rather than trying to fight conventionally they are talking about doing rather "questionable" fighting tactics.
For example, they are planning on buying tons of potions of Gaseous Form which they plan to drink and then wait out the other teams until all of their buffs fade before they attack. Or they will all drink their Gaseous Form potions while the Priest casts Invisibility and then starts to spam the arena with Summon Monster spells round after round.
Basically they are trying to figure out ways to win these fights without actually doing much, if any, fighting themselves. I would figure that these sort of tactics would go against the "spirit" of the games, but yet there are no rules preventing this sort of fighting. Plus these guys use these sorts of tactics ALL the time during monster encounters, so it's not as if this was something new for this group.
I am curious to hear from others who ran this adventure how they handled any similar groups.
Off of the top of my head I would say that they can't use summon monster, but nothing in the core rules says that they can't. Same thing with invisibility, but yet my characters live and die by Invisibility, so that would be a huge blow to their "standard" tactics.
Any help on how to handle this would be appreciated, thanks!
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Your party is lame. Sorry, it had to be said.
Now that that's out of the way, they are completely missing the point of the gladiator's games. I would probably do something like the following:
1. Not advance their rating when they use such cowardly tactics. Yeah, they aren't breaking the rules, but the ratings are in part a reflection of their popularity.
2. Let them get away with it the first battle, hitting their popularity as mentioned above. Make sure the rest of the gladiators call them cowards and tell them they are bringing shame to the games.
3. Let the Froghemoth battle play out as normal. That creature doesn't have all that many buffs to begin with and should be able to chew through summoned creatures without a problem. Eventually they'll have to fight it.
4. Magic weapons can hit gaseous creatures. Give Pitchblade a spellstoring weapon with dispel magic or a weapon that is sufficiently magical to hit a gaseous character. Have them focus on one character - preferrably a spellcaster with low armor, that should bring the rest of the part out of gaseous form with a quickness.
5. For the final battle, let them screw around in gaseous form/invisible. It'll be their own fault when the city gets destroyed because they were waiting for the Ulgasta's buffs to run down.
I agree -- let them win their fights however they want, but play it up by showering them with boos and rotten tomatoes. Ultimately I think they'll just be hurting their wallets, though; potions of gaseous form don't grow on trees!
Kind of makes you wish you had a little gust of wind doesn't it? The fly ceiling is only 40' or something isn't it? If they don't want to fight, they can be blown out of the games.
I'm not really advocating nerfing player creativity, it's just that gaseous form does have weaknesses. You don't even need to have someone cast the spell. It could just be a windy day. The arena is outside after all. Maybe if one or two players become disqualified, the others will reconsider their tactics towards something that is fun for you as well.
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I agree -- let them win their fights however they want, but play it up by showering them with boos and rotten tomatoes. Ultimately I think they'll just be hurting their wallets, though; potions of gaseous form don't grow on trees!
They will not care. And if their popularity is low they will just make more money betting on themselves from each round.
I am most concerned about the first fight. I really don't want them to summon 1d4+1 10'x10' Apes into the arena round after round, but yet I can't see why they can't. Sure those Apes aren't that hard to kill for the other fighters, but the arena will become mighty crowded with 20-30 of those Apes running around.
But yet the spellcasters should be able to use their spells. And summon monster is a pretty standard core spell. Again, not sure what to do here.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I'm not really advocating nerfing player creativity, it's just that gaseous form does have weaknesses. You don't even need to have someone cast the spell. It could just be a windy day. The arena is outside after all. Maybe if one or two players become disqualified, the others will reconsider their tactics towards something that is fun for you as well.
I like the gust of wind idea, that's pretty cool.
I don't see this as player creativity. It's like saying "gosh, those kobolds sure are a problem. Oh well, let's wait for another adventuring party to go kill most of the leaders, then we'll go mop up the survivors." Or, worse yet "hell, let's just cash in one of our items and pay somebody else to take care of those damn kobolds." Yeah, it solves the problem of the kobolds, but you might as well try playing a different game if that's how you're going to deal with challenges.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Magic circle against evil/good/law/chaos should keep out those pesky apes. I can't remember, but at least in the first battle, I believe there are a handful of spellcasters that could have a scroll or such capable of doing this.
I don't have a problem with the invisible caster summoning monsters - I agree that's core rules and totally acceptable. I have a problem with the whole party hiding with gaseous form for 10 minutes to run out the clock on their opponent's buffs. It's very meta-gamey.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Three rules addendums I made -
* Summoned creatures count against the team limit. So if your team has 6, you could summon 2 creatures, total.
* If you are forced out of the arena boundaries, you must immediately move back in to avoid disqualification
* Leaving the plane consitutes leaving the battlefield, so if you do it deliberately, you are disqualified. This does extend to blink/teleport.
The 2nd was because a player was going to use an empowered defenestrating sphere to try and exploit the altitude limit.
Russ
I agree that you have to let them use whatever magic and tactics they come up with that aren't specifically banned by the rules of the Games, particularly in the first round. The first round is supposed to be entertaining, but not particularly challenging anyway. For latter rounds, remember that Loris Raknian is trying to kill them and he's not dumb. He will observe their tactics and find a way to provide their opponents the means to counter them, be it gust of wind or dispel magic or detect invisibility or whatever. None of those are particularly expensive or rare either. If you have to, expand the powers and capabilities of the opponents if you think they can't challenge your group.
And I would play up the crowd displeasure angle. Maybe your players don't care about their popularity, but have people start throwing wine bottles or other debris from the upper decks (recommend d6 damage plus a d6 damage for every 20' they descend to simulate gravity acceleration) and maybe they'll start caring. Or have some enraged fan who lost money on his bets because of what he sees as their "unfair" tactics hire a particularly nasty assassin to go after them in the Coenoby or after the Games are over.
In any event, the same tactics shouldn't work in all the fights. Intel is passed and opponents will adjust their own tactics accordingly. The best gladiators are actually those who can vary their tactics to meet the situation and not become predictable.
The first time they pull those lame stunts (Sebastion said it best), eject them from the games. People go to the games to be entertained. Hiding in gaseous form is hardly entertaining.
Ekaym is going to be p.o.'d, but maybe he can ask the games committee to reconsider the heroes with the intent of the games in mind.
Let them play an NPC group that is not equiped to fight a battle in such an underhanded way and let them experience how fun it is to win a close fight.
I'll be creating a number of my own rules for these games:
-No potions or scrolls in the arena.
-No tanglefoot bags, thunderstones, alchemist fire, smoke sticks, or other utility items in the arena.
-Any casting of curative magic (cure spells, heal) during battle will result in the disqualification of that gladiator. Spells and abilities that grant temporary hp are allowed.
-Gladiators must register their gear once they enter and must use only that gear during battle.
-Only one magical item for each body part: 2 rings, 1 amulet, 1 wand, 1 staff, up to 2 melee weapons, etc. No swapping during battle.
-All items of power to be used in the games will be examined by arena wizards. Items deemed too hazardous or "unsportsmanlike" will be denied use in the games and given to the team sponsor to hold.
There doesn't seem to be any "specific" compunctions against your party's tactics. However, as Eltanin said earlier, gaseous form has its weaknesses. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they should still be vulnerable to magic weapons, right...at least 50% of the time? Furthermore, spellcasters who've gotten wind (pun intended) of the tactic would certainly exploit it. That forty-foot ceiling for expulsion was probably developed to help counter this philosophy of fighting.
If your group is preparing a lot of summon monster spells, they're likely not equipped with other spells that could help them. Once that tactic falls through--and I'm sure Pitch Blade could make short work of some large apes--how are they going to defend themselves once the gaseous form wears off? Don't get me wrong; while I think the gaseous form/summoning trick is very clever and effective in a dungeon, I think you party's tactics might come back to bite them one day, and that will be punishment enough.
Pitch Blade has potions of fly. Sure, their boring tactic will work in the first fight, but nothing is gonna stop an angry pair of flying dwarves from chopping them to bits with their magic weapons. Yeah, they're Spot skills blow, but chances are that Okoral himself has advised them on these tactics and will have told them what to look for (Spot DC 10-15 to spot a puff of vapor where no other vapor is?).
I added rules that Invisibility, Darkness, Fog Cloud, etc weren't allowed, as the crowd wouldn't be able to see what's going on.
Geoff.
Just thought I'd point out a flaw in the idea of going gaseous and summoning traffic cones. Per the SRD:
It can’t attack or cast spells with verbal, somatic, material, or focus components while in gaseous form.
Which means your cloudlike party can basically do nothing, unless one of their spellcasters happens to have a spell that is silent, stilled, and has no material components or foci.
Oh, Here's what you do.
If the players are all going invisible, and not putting on a good show, have the "rabble" start booing. If you had saved all year to see one fight in the Games, you wouldn't really want to have a lame fight where everyone is invisible or gas or whatever.
Have people start throwing stuff at them. Make it a massive attack, so they have to make a reflex save (DC 13) at the end of the fight when they accept the trophy or take 1d3 points of damage as the crowd boos them.
I wouldn't rule against summoned monsters. I might give a few more area attacks to people like Pitch Blade. I would just ignore the summoned monsters and head for the area that the characters.
I've made a handout of the tournament rules for the games that I've posted in case any GMs that might be running the adventure want to use it. I've tightened up the rules on magic for the tournament since I wanted to make it be more of an event that celebrates martial prowess. It's supposed to be about gladiators battling it out not wizards zipping around fireballing everyone. This means that the spellcasters will be substantially gimped for the arena battle portions of the adventure, but I don't have any sympathy for them since spellcasters have more than their fair chance to shine throughout the campaign.
Champions Games Rules and Regulations
Tournament Overview: The esteemed, annual Greyhawk Champions Games is a five day elimination tournament of arena combat between registered teams of up to five combatants. Only one team may emerge victorious. In addition, the tournament features spectacle matches that involve gladiators fighting against exotic monsters.
Entry Regulations:
#1. All entrants must be sponsored by a licensed manager.
#2. All team members must be living members of one of the following sentient races: human, dwarf, elf, half elf, halfling, half orc, gnome, orc, goblinoid, gnoll, lizardfolk, kenku, tiefling (or other plane touched), grimlock.
#3. Teams may include up to a maximum of 5 members. No special accommodations will be made for teams that have fewer than 5 members, and teams may not add replacements or substitutes to their ranks after the tournament has begun.
#4. Each team must identify itself with a name and designate a leader to represent the team.
#5. Teams are responsible for providing and maintaining their own weapons and equipment. Additional rules around weapons and equipment can be found in the combat rules section.
#6. During the course of the tournament all participating teams are housed and fed in the Coenoby below the arena. Teams that are eliminated or disqualified from the tournament are no longer permitted to stay in Coenoby. Acts of violence between teams in the Coenoby area is grounds for the immediate disqualification of the offending team(s) and possible legal action. Teams are not permitted to leave the Coenoby area except to go to and from matches. Violation of this rule may also lead to the disqualification of the team.
Tournament Structure:
Day #1 of the tournament: features 24 teams participating in 6 rounds of combat. In each round 4 teams compete in a free for all match, and the winner of each round advances to the next phase of the tournament. After day 1 only 6 of the 24 teams will remain.
Day #2 of the tournament: The remaining teams have this day to rest and recuperate. Other spectacles take place during this day that aren’t part of the tournament, such as arena executions and spectacle fights for cash purses between teams that have been eliminated and exotic beasts or retired solo gladiators.
Day #3 of the tournament: The remaining 6 teams are divided into pairs. Each pair competes, and the 3 finalist teams are chosen and ranked based on their performances thus far in the tournament.
Day #4: The 3rd ranked team and the 1st ranked team combat each other. The 2nd ranked team participates in an exotic beast fight spectacle. The winner of the fight between the 1st ranked team and the 3rd ranked team will fight the 2nd ranked team on day 5 for the tournament championship, assuming the 2nd ranked team survives the exotic beast fight. If the 2nd ranked team does not survive the exotic beast fight (a rare occurrence) then the winner of the match between the 1st and 3rd ranked teams is declared the champion team. If the exotic beast survives they must combat it on the day 5 to earn the full winners purse. If the beast was killed another beast of the same or very similar species is brought in to challenge the winning team. If they fail to defeat the beast they earn only half of the 20,000 gp purse.
Day #5: Either the final two teams compete for the Championship or the winning team competes against the exotic beast (see day #4 for details).
Honorifics and Prizes: Honorifics and prizes are presented and awarded at the end of each round of the tournament.
Round #1: Each winning team from the 1st round receives a bronze statuette of a bull and a 1,000 gp purse.
Round #2: Each of the three winning teams will receive a silver trophy depicting a dwarf gladiator and a purse of 5,000 gp.
Tournament grand prize: The winner of the tournament will receive a gold trophy depicting a human gladiator and a purse of 20,000 gp.
Combat Rules:
#1. All battles are potentially lethal, but a gladiator always has the option to surrender. To surrender a gladiator must drop all his weapons, kneel and hold both hands in the air. A gladiator who attacks a surrender opponent is immediately disqualified from the tournament and may face legal action. A gladiator who surrenders and then attacks another gladiator is also immediately disqualified. Surrender is not recommended in the exotic beast match, as it cannot be guaranteed that the beast will understand or abide by the rules.
#2. A match persists until one team is victorious, either through the death or surrender of all opposing teams.
#3. Magic items are permitted as long as they don’t violate any of the restrictions on magic (see below) or other tournament rules.
#4. Any tactic from a gladiator that endangers or harms spectators is cause for immediate disqualification of the entire offending gladiator’s team and possible legal action.
#5. Winning gladiators have no claim to the spoils of fallen gladiators. A defeated gladiator keeps his gear or in the case of death ownership of gear reverts to his team or manager.
#6. Gladiators belonging to a winning team who are killed in combat, may be raised from the dead in order to continue to participate in the tournament.
#7. Bows, crossbows and slings are forbidden, and their use is grounds for disqualification. However thrown weapons are acceptable.
#8. Use of poison is forbidden and grounds for disqualification and possible legal action.
Restrictions on Magic:
#1. Spells that affect the minds of opponents (such as illusions and enchantments including, but not limited to the following spells: colour spray, charm, dominate, fear, sleep, hold person, maze, confusion, insanity) are forbidden and grounds for disqualification and possible legal action depending on the severity of the spell effect.
#2. Flight magic is forbidden and grounds for disqualification.
#3. Magic that summons creatures into combat is forbidden and grounds for disqualification.
#4. Burrowing into the surface of the arena is forbidden and grounds for disqualification.
#5. Magic that causes an unwilling physical transformation to an opponent is forbidden (e.g., baleful polymorph or flesh to stone) and grounds for disqualification and possible legal action.
#6. Spells that cause physical harm to opponents are permitted, so long as they target only a single opponent at a time and aren’t used at a range. If such spells are used at a range or target multiple targets at once then the spell caster will be immediately disqualified from the tournament.
#7. Magic that obscures or otherwise blocks the sight or sound of the combat from the spectators (e.g., darkness, fog cloud, pyrotechnics, silence) is forbidden and grounds for disqualification.
#8. Necromantic magic that entails the creation of undead entities is strictly forbidden and is grounds for disqualification and legal action.
Refer to list of banned spells if you are unsure whether a spell you wish to use if permitted.
(DMs Note: I’m not compiling such a list. To simulate this send me a list of spells you wish to make use of, and I will tell you if any of them are banned. Refer to the guidelines above to give yourself a sense of what spells may be banned)
Disqualified Gladiators: If a gladiator is disqualified the gladiator must cease fighting, immediately raise his hands in the air and walk to the edge of the arena. The disqualified gladiator cannot participate in any remaining fights; failure to comply results in the disqualification of the entire team.
Officiating: During the matches officiating will be done by trained referees who will be overseeing the match through the use of flight magic. A referee who sees a violation of the rules that is grounds for disqualification will immediately signal to the offender with a yellow alchemical flare. In the case of entire team being disqualified the referee will use a red alchemical flare.
So if you pay attention to the rules I came up with it makes the matches much more equitable, but require rejigging of encounters. The first encounter IMO seems ridiculous RAW. You have one team that's been permitted to ride around on horses, another one shooting arrows etc... I just doesn't make much sense that the tournament would be that much of a free for all. Missile weapons and ranged attacks seem like a danger to the audience, which was one of the reasons for banning those. I've added more structure to it, so that it feels more like a legitimate tournament that focuses on melee combat prowess since I wanted to emphasize the "gladiator" aspect.