Having another new wizard character and picking spells I picked up Indentify. I don't mind the spell as a mechanic to figure out what a magic item does, but the thing that always gets me is the material component. It's not even that it has to be 100gp, but more that it is in particular a pearl. I know a lot of spells have material components and the components are fairly specific, but in this case to me it feel like it should be 100gp worth of various magic ingredents. I have been in a few campaign when you are constantly asking for 100gp pearls and nobody has them.
Do people think that the pearl part was meant to be an additional hinderance? So if you are in a desert setting, it would be almost impossible to use Identify. I know some people have done away with Identify altogether, but has anyone changed it to a generic 100gp worth of components that you would get in the same way as any other magical components. Am I just being too sensitive to the issue? ;)
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Our group felt the same way and we house ruled it that you needed 100 gp worth of gemstones.
There was a related thread here if you are interested --> Magic Item Identification.
I have changed a few things about identify in my campaigns. First off, the casting time is just rude. I make it a ten minute casting time. One hour can be severely disruptive, even in the morning or evening when the party most often identifies. While it was meant to prevent plug and play magic item acquisition, I (and I may be a minority here) prefer for players to be able to use their bounty as soon as possible. I wouldn't stock my dungeons with any treasure, if I didn't.
Bear in mind the campaign I am running is fairly low-treasure, so magic items are usually designed to play a role in the story. If the characters find an item, they are encouraged to try and use it in subsequent encounters.
In my current campaign, the party also has a powerful diviner ally at their home base, who offers up to three identifies at cost, so they can simply spend 100gp worth of treasure to identify.
I am also allowing access to a cantrip which can allow any gem of at least 100 gp value to be used for identification purposes. This may wind up being uneccessary with all the other lenience I have shown, but time will tell.
I know some people have done away with Identify altogether, but has anyone changed it to a generic 100gp worth of components that you would get in the same way as any other magical components. Am I just being too sensitive to the issue? ;)
We've learned a version that demands 100 gp of gold dust, which has worked just fine.
I think that the designers made material components so specific so that a DM can restrict a spell's use...if he/she wants to. Personally, I handwave the specifics of spell component purchasing. Even if the players are in a desert city, they're free to buy as many pearls as they think they'll need. I just figure that wherever there's items to identify, there'll be pearls.
There is also primal essense in Complete Mage. Its this proto matter dust from the etherial plane that can be used as a substitute for anything. 150 gp of primal essense can be substituted for 100 gp worth of any other material component, so it comes in handy as a "general" component if you have access to wizards or alchemists that might sell the stuff.
All good suggestions.
Thanks
I agree with taquila sunrise. The specific components were ment to limit use of the spell. I think it forces curious players with out a 100 gp pearl to experiment, or so I would hope. zBut the truth is PCs will wait until the return to base and pay someone to identify.
On another not I have thought about pay as you go component use. So players mark of Gp as they cast the spell like Identify. My Players don't like to do much bookkeeping. It is meta gaming and PCs do not have to prep as much. what do others think
On another not I have thought about pay as you go component use. So players mark of Gp as they cast the spell like Identify. My Players don't like to do much bookkeeping. It is meta gaming and PCs do not have to prep as much. what do others think
That certainly does make things simpler, and it's only one step removed from my solution. I prefer to keep track of items that are worth 100 gp, but my preference could be swayed by the right players. In the end it wouldn't be unbalancing, unless you dropped a magic item to the players that you for some reason didn't want them to immediately identify, but then again you could just say 'gee you're suddenly out of pearls!'
Despite not being cost effective, I think that primal essence was suppose to be kind of a response to "what expensive components to I buy before hand." I like the idea, and I can definately see arcane casters carrying some of the stuff "just in case" those few spells that you have in the spellbook but you always forget the components to need to be cast.
Ahem- thank you, Paizo, for logging me off without my consent within just 10 minutes of being logged on. Now that I think about it, that is exactly what I needed! I'm so happy that my post was lost in the process, too.
Anyway, the real problem with identify according to the RAW is what exactly the caster must do with that 100gp pearl. It poses quite a risk over prolonged useage. Close examination of the rules indicates that all mages should have a remove kidney stone spell prepared. :)
That certainly does make things simpler, and it's only one step removed from my solution. I prefer to keep track of items that are worth 100 gp, but my preference could be swayed by the right players. In the end it wouldn't be unbalancing, unless you dropped a magic item to the players that you for some reason didn't want them to immediately identify, but then again you could just say 'gee you're suddenly out of pearls!'
On another not I have thought about pay as you go component use. So players mark of Gp as they cast the spell like Identify. My Players don't like to do much bookkeeping. It is meta gaming and PCs do not have to prep as much. what do others think
On the rare occasions when this occurs, I tell them that they believe (being seasoned casters) that this item cannot be identified by normal means. If they persist, its on them that they wasted 100 gp.
I still encourage players to spellcraft potions, activate blindly, etc, in addition to the use of the spell, but I wanted the spell to be easier to use because I believe in a style of play that permits players to use that +1 Ghost Touch Longspear they found in the treasure chamber against the Wraith at the end of the dungeon, rather than getting home, finding out what they had and saying "d'oh"... I feel its more dramatic and exciting for them that way.
I can definitely agree with that.
By the RAW:
Fighter: Well, it's another couple of masterwork spears. Are they magical?
Mage: (casting detect magic) That one is, the other isn't.
Fighter: (dropping nonmagical spear) Okay, hold on to it and we'll find out more back in town, then sell it.
-- OR --
Fighter: Well, it's another couple of masterwork spears. Are they magical?
Mage: (casting detect magic, followed by an easier-to-use identify) Well, that one is just a normal spear, but the other is the wailing pike of Angrad, which is a weapon feared by all undead!
Fighter: Excellent! Now where's that wraith?
Great thread and suggestions. I too was considering the spellcraft check to identify magic items for the next campaign I'm running and I've defenitely appreciated the suggestions here.
I like the spellcraft checks to identify items that the checker is capable of making. I would also add a bonus to this check if the person in question has the relevant crafting feat. It seems to me that if you know how to brew potions (for example) that you would be able to identify other potions more easily. I would probably grant a +4 or so bonus to the identify check.
I would also allow knowledge checks to identify artifacts and relics (arcane and religion respectively), as well as history for certain well known items.
I'm thinking that the checker needs to examine the item while under a detect magic or arcane sight spell to be able to examine the "magic weave", so to speak, of the item to glean its function from this.
What if identify simply gave a bonus on the spellcraft/knowledge check to understand an item's properties? Similar to a potion of lore in NWN2, which grants a +5 or +10 (can't remember) bonus to the Lore skill (which is what is used to identify items in the game).
Back in the old days it took us real wizards 8 HOURS a pearl AND an owl feather steeped in wine. I dont think it allways work either and it tired you out ( - 1 con ) .
back then swords rusted and the orcs were MUCH stronger ...
rambles off dribling into his beard....
Back in the old days it took us real wizards 8 HOURS a pearl AND an owl feather steeped in wine. I dont think it allways work either and it tired you out ( - 1 con ) .
back then swords rusted and the orcs were MUCH stronger ...rambles off dribling into his beard....
And Fireballs filled up a the volume and was not just a 30 ft sphere.... And we battled kobolds uphill in the snow.
As for Identify, as long as we have 100 gp we can get the pearl.
Mage: (casting detect magic, followed by an easier-to-use identify) Well, that one is just a normal spear, but the other is the wailing pike of Angrad, which is a weapon feared by all undead!
That's exactly what Bardic Knowledge (or the Loremaster's Lore ability) is for.
In the original post, the problem seemed to be "constantly asking for 100gp pearls and nobody has them," which comes down to DM fiat more than rules issues. I've seen similar restrictions on components when the DM wanted to limit PC use of certain spells and it usually feels arbitrary.
Then again, legacy and legendary weapons (from Weapons of Legacy and Unearthed Arcana respectively) can be used to throw a hitch in the Identify spell without limiting its use.
Mage: (casting detect magic, followed by an easier-to-use identify) Well, that one is just a normal spear, but the other is the wailing pike of Angrad, which is a weapon feared by all undead!That's exactly what Bardic Knowledge (or the Loremaster's Lore ability) is for.
In the original post, the problem seemed to be "constantly asking for 100gp pearls and nobody has them," which comes down to DM fiat more than rules issues. I've seen similar restrictions on components when the DM wanted to limit PC use of certain spells and it usually feels arbitrary.
Then again, legacy and legendary weapons (from Weapons of Legacy and Unearthed Arcana respectively) can be used to throw a hitch in the Identify spell without limiting its use.
Absolutely, DC Player. Despite my lax rules regarding the use of identify, I always have a subset of items which are non-magical, yet give bonuses due to their provenance, history or manufacture, slightly higher than masterwork, slightly less than magic.
I don't have the legacy/legendary rules, but I assume it is something along those lines. There are also quasi relics in my game world. Unique magic items created, not crafted, from an event, person or creature's actions or the will of a deity.
These cannot be ID'ed (nor can detect magic determine anything beyond their being magic) and often the effects of the item must be determined through a seperate quest or simply by using/wearing/handling the item in question. In both cases I would award a player who's PC has the relevant skills, by making it easier for them to understand and use the item.
In addition to the suggestions for being able to use spellcraft etc. posted above, I'd like to point out that simple epigraphic evidence can give the PCs strong clues about an item's powers. Remember Gandalf reading the runes on the blades looted from the trolls' lair and finding out the names of the swords and the fact that they were forged in Gondolin? If you have a magic item you intend for your players to use right away, have it bear an inscription and let them use their decipher script skill, comprehend languages spell, etc. to get some cryptic clues about the weapon.
E.g.:
Inscribed in an archaic form of Elvish, on one side of the blade:
"Anarch's Revenge"
On the reverse
"This blade was forged by Elthalurion of Orosselon for High King Penrunior Silverhair"
The first inscription should lead PCs to conclude that this sword has the "anarchic" property. A DC 25 bardic knowledge or knowledge history check reveals that Penrunior was an ancient Elven King who fought a great war for control of the forest against a mighty green wyrm. An even better check might reveal that Elthalurion forged this very blade for the final assault against Ancalagon the Green and his huge horde of hobgoblin minions.
Edit: If you want to give added color (and reduce the accuracy) of identify spells, you can run it so that the caster of the spell becomes possessed by the spirit of the item's crafter after swallowing the pearl concoction. Instead of just saying "this is a +2 ghost-touch mace" you can have the caster speak a cryptic verse that hints strongly at the item's properties.
"Among the shadows of Lar Drunaith,
Segairon bore the Silver Rod.
With it he smote Thelyl's Wraith,
And drove it back beneath the sod."
(Since you can predict your party will do this, you can make up the rhyme when you place the treasure).
I usually don't fool with concealing the plus-value of things once the item's magical nature and purpose becomes apparent--more trouble than it's worth to remember all the unidentified +1 weapons and +2 bracers of armor that people are using. Only the special properties are important to play this game with.
Great post, Perhuhain. I haven't been as descriptive or poetic with items yet, but that captures very well the way I would like the discovery and identification of a special item for the PC's to feel in game. Any time I can reward a player for choosing RP skills, I would like to, and this seems like an excellent way to do so.
I think I will save the most elaborate descriptions and such for truly unique items, but I will be adapting your suggestions for use in my current campaign. Thanks!
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Our group keeps the one-hour casting time but replaces the material component with a non-consumed focus instead: a 100gp diamond. The caster looks at the item through the diamond and, over the course of an hour of study, the qualities are revealed. The same diamond can be used time and time again.
We don't even bother tracking material components in our games. Only the ones that are particularly pricey (like stoneskin or ressurection) are strictly adhered to. Most of the time, we just assume that the character is able to easily find the material components he needs when he visits town.
Every player in my campaigns so far has had the presence of mind to add a spell component pouch to their inventory, which is good enough for me, as the RAW suggests it should be. Only pricey components need to be tracked, like Fatespinner stated.
On the specific matter of Identify costs, I ended up making a house rule in my game that it used a 100gp Focus, similar to the focus required for Analyze Dweomer (in fact, it could easily be assumed that it becomes the foundation for that spell's focus later on). I just don't think the cost is necessary.
I'd played with other ideas, like allowing casters to ID things with a spellcraft check. And before changing the component to a focus, I'd made a 'potion' one could buy where the pearl was ground up and ready for the caster to use (it struck me that shops would sell these instead of pearls).
In the more general sense, I don't bother with keeping track of even expensive material components. Unless there are unusual circumstances /and/ it serves the story to have them bereft of material components, I just have my players deduct the gold. This has set an interesting precedent in the game, because the other players are more free to contribute 'on demand' when they receive certain beneficial infusions from the artificer. I never thought I'd see the day when the fighter was taking on the costs of the boosts they get... But here it is! That day's come.
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What if identify simply gave a bonus on the spellcraft/knowledge check to understand an item's properties? Similar to a potion of lore in NWN2, which grants a +5 or +10 (can't remember) bonus to the Lore skill (which is what is used to identify items in the game).
I posted this once before but it didnt seem to go through; so I apologize if it shows up later as a double post.
We have been applying this very same scheme to our games for quite some time.
DC is 25 + caster level of the crafter
(ie wand of fireballs cast at 10th level would be DC35 Spellcraft check.)
Identify spell: 100 gp value of gem(s);
Adds +10 to the spellcraft check.
Analyze Dweomer add +20 to spellcraft checks
Specialist wizards gain a +2 for items of their specialty school.
If you have the appropriate craft feat you gain a +4 bonus.
Some items cannot be identified this way - those with special legendary status - which may require Legend Lore spell or ability.
Robert