The Shoosuva

[NukeHavoc]

The Blackrazor Guild encountered the Shoosuva lair within Kerzit's Fane last night, and lo, there was much ranting and raving about the power of these monsters relative to their Challenge Rating. There were two major areas of complaint:

1. Hit Dice relative to CR: The monsters have 18 HD and a CR of 8; I think their initial shock was based on the assumption that HD = CR, but looking at the d20 SRD rules for improving monsters, it looks like undead hit dice are pegged at 4 HD = 1 CR, which would give them a base CR (just based on hit dice) of 4.5. Their subtype is extraplaner, but again, looking at the Improve Monster rules I don't think that makes them outsiders, becuase their type remains undead. That could explain a good chunk of their confusion.

Does that math sound right?

I think most of their shock came when their super-undead-destroying cleric tried -- and failed -- to turn them using a near-perfect roll ... and failed (the monsters counting as HD 22 because of extra turning, and he only affecting creatures of up to HD 21).

2. Creaping Paralysis: This particularly nasty supernatural bite attack seemed overly powerful for a CR 8 creature; it's a fairly unique ability so I'm not sure how it stacks up with other abilities. The ability only ended up affecting one character (everyone else made their saves) so I think their fears were somewhat exaggerated.

Having run the combat, and going from a gut-instinct level, these monsters feel like a CR 10 creature to me, what with their DR, fine assortment of feats, and high hit die. I'm curious to hear what others think.

Ken

[Jeremy Mac Donald]

CR can feel really inauthentic depending a lot on what the characters are good at fighting or how they handle certain types of creatures. I recall their being mush dismay that Shadows where a fairly low CR as my players had no ghost touched weapons, no magic missile spells and generally had a heck of a time even hitting the creatures. Meanwhile their unbelievably high ACs where rendered nearly useless by Ethereal touch attacks.

That said if the players had had ghost touched weapons or a spell that could make their weapons ghost touched or any really good force spells the creatures would have been a breeze.

So circumstances often make CR seem either to low or to high. I bet too high is much more common but of course the players don't b#@&~ when they get oodles of XP after taking down a monster is a single round without so much as getting scratched.

[Jeremy Mac Donald]

I don't think these things are CR 10. I mean CR is pretty open ended but I went looking at some CR 9 monsters. Vrock, Green Slaadi and Rocs are all CR 9. Both the Vrock and the Green Slaadi can potentially summon another one of its type and have some very nice special abilities. The Roc is comparable in HD and has as its shtick swooping down on PCs and using its +37 grapple as well as snatch to carry them away (possibly dropping them from 300').

So at CR 8 these things are tough but with only a single attack your players where probably not actually in real danger. I mean they first have to pull off a hit with that bite and then to do anything really distinctive the victim must blow a DC 23 Fort save. After that the victim will slowly get weaker but probably not before the baddie is dispatched and healing spells can be cracked out.

[DMFTodd]

Those things ate my players as well. The main problem being the overpowering paralysis. Tone that down a bit or change the ability and they are doable.

The other problem is the tight quarters the PCs have to fight them in. As I remember it, the PCs go down some stairs, through a secret door, and get pounced on. If the PCs had a way to stand back and range attack them, they'd have a much better chance.

Lastly, it's a new monster. If the PCs had some forwarning about the powerful paralysis, maybe that would help. My players waded in, two of them got paralyzed, and suddenly the party was in really big trouble.