Hmmm. It seems like Control Undead should be blocked by Mind Blank, but Control Undead doesn't say it's "Mind-Affecting" (since all undead are immune to those, aren't they) so apparently not. Wow.
If Dragotha has Protection From Good, will that fix this loophole?
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This is how it went. They had been sitting around planning how to kill Dragotha for quite some time. After losing their fight with Brazzemal (they retreated after destroying the phylactery) they assumed that the larger and more nasty dragon would be even harder. So they created a plan where they might not have to fight at all.
-They essentially cast commune spells, and consulted every powerful person in the campaign world until they figured out that Dragotha had rather sparse defenses due to arrogance and being distracted by the theft of the monolith.
-They cast mind blank on every party member (cannot be scryed).
-They cast some spell (Hide from Dragons?) that made them undetectable to dragons until they touched a dragon's horde or attacked one.
-They made their way through the tabernacle, Dragotha knew they were there...somewhere, but could not scry or see them.
-They fought the clerics and other non-dragon undead while Dragotha shouted at them (but was not aware or where exactly they were).
-They cast miracle and asked to be protected from foresight for the next 10 minutes.
-They reached the Writhing Sanctum and disjuntioned Dragotha as part of a surprise round.
-The next party member limited wished and Dragotha took a minus to the next save.
-Then their solar cast a miracle to give them plus 10 on their next d20 roll.
-They rolled initiative...Dragotha rolled high and the fate-spinner said to reroll. The next roll was much lower.
-Most of the party held their actions until the wizard went.
-On the wizard's turn he and the two sorcs Co-op spelled Control Undead using assorted quickened spells to knock the DC to 42.
-I rolled a natural 20, the other fate-spinner said to re-roll. I rolled a 17, not enough.
-Thats it.
Holy moly, I hope my PCs aren't reading this thread! (They fight him on Sunday) What did they do with Dragotha once they got control of him??
Don't see this as much of a problem. Sure, they'll have Dragotha's assistance for a little while. Eventually, the control undead will be dispelled/disjoined, and they are in for a world of hurt.
Protection from evil would negate control for a long as the spell is in effect.
So, avolakia teleports in after scrying on Dragotha, casts quickened protection from good or magic circle against good, and Dragotha plane lays on the hurt (until they dispel it, that is.)
Also, one should note that PCs who have access to all the splatbooks are FAR more powerful than PCs who are core-only or have limited access.
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Yeah, and while they have control over him for the next 26 minutes (the wizard has stuff that makes his effective caster level higher) then they can kill him at their leisure. Look very carefully at the spell Control Undead, please. I ended my session with the spell working and hoped someone could help me. The spell description is very short and does not say that the spell is limited in any way like the other domination and charm spells are. It looks like the PCs can just beat them down without consequence and I want you guys to help me counter it.
Here are the things going for Dragotha:
-The Wormdrake is still alive and aware that Dragotha is under attack. It is at full HP.
-Their are at least 9 living clerics still around in the tabernacle.
-Brazzemal is alive and aware that the PCs are attacking the area. He has a telepathic bond to Dragotha (who is female in my campaign and his mother) which was destroyed in the disjuntion, so he knows that the PCs have just attacked her.
Here are the things going AGAINST Dragotha:
-The screen effect blocks scrying so they can't see what the PCs are doing and cannot just tactically teleport in.
-Dragotha (as I read the spell) can be commanded to fight her own minions.
-With the PCs help it is likely that any minions would die before realizing that the dracolich is controlled and therefore none of them could dispel the effect.
I'm having the "hired help" leave almost first thing next session if the PCs spend any time sparing Dragotha. The titan will complain that their actions were not worthy of epic stories and the solar will take his leave if they refuse to kill her first thing.
They also hired a gold dragon who is likely going to go right for the treasure and take a hefty sum for himself. Anything else you can suggest?
The Avolakia clerics have Magic Circle Against Good on their list of prepared spells. Just get at least one of them (buffed before entering the fight) within 10' of Dragotha, and the control ends.
The Wormdrake is the answer to your hopes. Let it use Gate on a particulary horrific Outsider with access to Mordenkainenen's Dysjunction, Greater Dispel, or Anitmagic Field. Said monster uses the power while Wormdrake diverts heroes with summoned worms and Greater Dispel Magic. Heck, give him two. Dragotha has more than one in the world, and the random encounters in the Wormcrawl in the Online Supplement lists additional Wormdrakes as possible encounters.
I don't have the greatest mastery of every nuance and wrinkle in the rules, especially at high levels of play, so I can't comment on whether or not 'control undead' allows your players to do whatever they please with Dragotha. However, I think they came up with a creative solution to a very tough problem. I would send every surviving foe in the Tabernacle against your players and let them use Dragotha to kick ass and take names. I mean, how cool would that be? As a player, that's a story I would take with me for the rest of my life. Plus, if they got stomped by Braz in Kings of the Rift, they're aching for payback. And they've earned it. In fact, this might be a great time to have Braz show up...
I would send every surviving foe in the Tabernacle against your players and let them use Dragotha to kick ass and take names. I mean, how cool would that be? As a player, that's a story I would take with me for the rest of my life. Plus, if they got stomped by Braz in Kings of the Rift, they're aching for payback. And they've earned it. In fact, this might be a great time to have Braz show up...
I think that Jebadiah is offering a good viable alternative. It seems like the players did an excellent job of planning and execution for which they might appreciate some reward. I am forever wracking my brains for ways to make each encounter tougher so that the PCs don't feel like they're walking all over everything. But I try to remember what it feels like as a player. When my team blows through a powerful encounter, I watch the DM groan in disappointment but I only feel triumph. Two days later I'll be DMing and groaning myself, completely forgetting how much fun I just had while we were kicking butt. It's true that this is the penultimate BBEG and someone that they've been hearing about for a long time now, so you want the fight to pack a punch. But I think that Jebediah's suggestion of having everyone else come teleporting, walking, crawling, and slithering in will make for a good fight. If they have Dragotha on their side, you can probably cut loose a little bit and throw an army at them. However, beware, because if that control slips...well, the PCs could suddenly be facing overwhelming odds.
I agree with Jebadiah. You're in the DM vs. Players mindset. It sounds like they did their due dillegence preparing for the encounter and should be rewarded for it. This doesn't mean that Dragotha's allies won't attempt to rescue the undead dragon, of course.
Your biggest chance for success lies with the wormdrake and its gate and greater dispelling abilities. Have it gate in a powerful creature that has the spells or spell-like abilities that would be useful in finding and recovering dragotha.
Oh, and here's a suggestion for any DMs planning on running the Dragotha battle and worried about MDJ: Place all of Dragotha's treasure in a mound on the pyramid.
Ahhhhhh.....24 Hours to go until the big Dragotha fight! I feel like a kid at Christmas!! I personally promise to slay at least half of my upstart party (though I still want them to win) and to instill a new level of terror never before experienced by a bad guy in a role-playing game.
My PCs took the wiser path and decided to fight the minions. They just have the "doorguards" to take care of (Swapped the Nightcrawlers for a Favored Spawn of Kyuss Crawling Head and Favored Spawn of Kyuss Flesh Jelly...at this level of play neither set of monsters will be that tough but I least wanted a unique touch. Its a shame they only have such a limited amount of space to print the modules, which occasionally eliminates the use of extra sourcebooks and new monsters...I'm sure there's a few ideas Jacobs wanted to throw in but couldn't due to module space. That makes it up to us to flush out the rest!!
If I'm successful with the fight, I'll be starting a new thread, "PCs, here's your asses. Allow Dragotha to hand them to you." Wish me luck!
Good luck.
I hate when players beat Dragons, makes me angry that such upstart pipsqueaks can take down such a mighty beast. Its unnatural.
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I realize that I sound like I'm entering the DM vs. PC mindset at this point but I think its more than that. For about 6 months my players have complained that the Age of Worms is too hard (despite me allowing them to use any Wizards book) and they often explained away blatant power-gaming by claiming that the campaign would slaughter them if they didn't optimize. As the battle with Dragotha drew near, they acted geniunely depressed explaining to me that they really didn't see a way to win, and their characters would likely run away.
My response to them was that I WANTED them to win. I wanted the Dragotha fight to be epic and hard, but in the end it would within their power to beat her if they went in with a plan. They then did a number of things which made me think it was going to be an epic battle. They gated in two of the allies from Dragon magazine (the Solar, and the Titan). They went out and found an adult gold dragon and offered it sizable rewards and the chance to kill the Mother of Black (I changed Dragotha's origin somewhat in my game). They couldn't have known about Balakarde's powers, but that was going for them as well. All in all they basically created a vast army of helpers and went in with maximum buff.......
....and then it turns out that they weren't actually scared at all. They had this plan the entire time, and didn't even really need the help. After the spell went off and I justly allowed it to work (Dragotha missed the save by 1 point)they basically danced and took pictures of their mini's dancing on the dragon's head and otherwise bragged about how they beat me. I guess the entire experience soured my perceptions of the campaign. I had gone through a lot of trouble to make Dragotha hard, but also fun to fight and they basically lorded over the fact that 7 of them were able to create a better plan than one of me. I don't know, it just seems such a sour end to a powerful dragon.
Well you can try and bring its minions in to free Dragotha but I suspect that trying to undo their plot at this late date is unfeasable and likely to turn into annoying arguments that won't forward your campaign.
I'd move on as quickly as possible to the next adventure. Next time you'll be better prepared for your players tricks.
Try and convince them (subtlely) that it would be better not to kill Dragotha, but to use him to their advantage. At least that leaves open some options in the future for you. In all likelyhood, I doubt the players would fall for this, so you might be stuck with a dead Dragotha. Perhaps if you play up Kyuss or Lashonna, they will realize that Dragotha is really just an obstacle (kinda like the Balrog in LoTR) and his defeat doesn't really do anything other than make the last battle easier.
It can be difficult to handle losing a favorite monster, even when you want the PCs to win. I just had the experience of DMing the battle between Darl Quethos and the PCs, and Darl lost. In hindsight, this is really good, because if he had won, the whole campaign would have been derailed or even ended (yikes!). Still, it was a bit disheartening to see him pull out all the stops and still come up behind. I know I'll feel the same way about Dragotha. I also know that in hindsight, I'll be glad they won.
My party simply used Control Undead.
This reminds me of when I used Brak against Tiamat in Final Fantasy 1. ;)
Have you used wall of force or stone to put the paladin outside of fight unless he can teleport or fly ?
BBEG gain a lot by using battlefield control spells to fight PC one by one or to remove the more dangerous one from battle for few rounds.
I agree with this. The party is entering Dragotha's primary lair, as a DM feel free to take this a step further and add to the existing environmental hazards. Not only is Dragotha's sanctum great for ambiance, but it's his preferred battlefield. Throw in a couple other obstacles. For example, at the door I placed a Dispelling Screen of sorts, preventing spells being cast from the hall into the sanctum. Felt it was necessary as the party is large & use mainly ranged tactics (3 mage types, a warlock, and 2 archers). This got them in there & up close & personal with Dragotha, adding to the excitement.
By the way, Forcecage + Silence caught a couple mages by surprise. Together with the negative energy drain from the air, added a sense of urgency for them ;-)
Wish I'd read this thread before running the battle, but the posts are definitely going to add some new pizazz to the final battles!
J-