I don't know if this was already talked about, but I would like to hear some pluses/minuses of one over the other. For the purpose of this, lets make the character a 20th level character (Really trying to plan it out). My thoughts are for the characters would be as follows.
Bladesinger - Fighter 4/Wizard 6/Bladesinger 10
Duskblade - Duskblade 20
Ok, as of so far, I have leveled a Grey Elf Wizard to 5th and took 1 level of figher. I intend on taking 3 more level of fighter, then taking the 10 levels of Bladesinger, then one more wizard. I figure this route will give me 6th level spells - 6 caster levels of wizard plus the 5 caster levels from the bladesinger. But is the Duskblade a better route? What would I gain from playing a duskblade? What do the rest of you guys think?
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Duskblades have full BAB of a fighter, full caster level and many cool little features like arcane channeling (use melee weapon attacks to deliver touch attack spells) and they can wear up to medium armor and heavy shields without a chance of spell failure. Sounds great, right!
Downside of the Duskblade: extremely limited number of spells known (to the tune of 1 per level besides the extra few at 1st level) and all the spells are blaster/beater spells, no utility spells, investigatory spells, etc.
They are a good class for someone who only wants to focus on dishing out pain, and are fun to roleplay. They seem overpowered at first but once you really test their limitations you see that they are pretty well balanced.
I have never really looked into the Bladesinger but giving up a full progression of either BAB or Caster levels seems to be a very large hit to take and may end up underpowered (a guess not based on any facts).
hope it helps,
FH
Try a swashbuckler/duskblade/bladesinger. Much synergy there.
Try a swashbuckler/duskblade/bladesinger. Much synergy there.
What would be your preferred advance for that build? And if you wouldn't mind explaining the strengths of the combo, I'd be intrigued to learn.
The ideal build would be an elven Swashbuckler 3/Duskblade 3/Bladesinger 2, then taking either Duskblade or Bladesinger levels (or perhaps Eldritch Knight) as you wish - everything else is just icing. He may want to advance Duskblade to 13th level - the Arcane Channeling (full attack) is a fairly impressive ability. His weapon should be a rapier. The character should also look to picking up the Einhander feat from the PH II - it grants special advantages when the character is wielding a weapon in one hand and nothing in the other hand.
Well, the main advantage of the build is that it is ALL about Dexterity and Intelligence. Your AC, your damage, your spellcasting - All are either based off of Int or get a boost from it, and Swashbuckler nets you Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. The character can wear light armor while casting spells, and gain the benefits of grace (admittedly only a +1 at 8th level, but hey, it's a +1). He gets his Intelligence bonus added to damage rolls at 3rd level, and Combat Casting as a bonus feat at 5th level. At 6th level, he gets iterative attacks since his base attack is all good despite multiclassing, and he can also choose to make a single attack and include the effects of one of his spells. At 7th level, the character gets a dodge bonus to AC equal to the lesser of his Intelligence bonus and Bladesinger class level, as long as he wears light or no armor. At 8th level, the character can take 10 on Concentration checks to cast defensively. So now at 8th level, he's got full base attack, a really good Fortitude save, and limited spellcasting. Beyond level 8, any levels he takes in any of these 3 classes more or less just adds on to what he has already gotten.
Downsides to this build?
Strangely enough, a poor base Reflex save. The grace ability of the Swashbuckler offsets this slightly, and the character is bound to have a high Dexterity anyway, but his Reflex saves won't be nearly as good as, say, a rogue's. Speaking of which, a few levels of rogue could fix that nicely, and get the character evasion to boot.
Low spellcasting. The duskblade gets 2nd level spells at 5th level - in this build, that's an eternity. The bladesinger gets half spellcasting, but that just means you'll reach 2nd level spells at 12th character level IF you take straight bladesinger levels after 8th level... ouch.
Hm... I can't think of much else. How's that?
That is a failry good build. There are alot of good bonuses there. I am leaning toward the Wizard 6/Fighter 4/Bladesinger 10 for these reasons however.
1. Wiz 6 gives BAB of +3, Fighter 4 - BAB +4, and Bladesinger 10 - BAB +10, so total of +17 BAB. That will net me the 4 attacks per round starting at 19th level.
2. With the Wiz 6 and Bladesinger 10, that is a total of 11 caster levels which gives up to 6th level spells. There are some great spells for Sorc/Wiz that are 6th level and below. If chosen right, I can be a defensive monster with a few big offensive punches.
3. The fighter levels give me several things besides BAB.
a. Good Fort saves
b. 3 bonus feats (Weapon Finess, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization).
c. 4d10 HD (good if you want to be an in your face combat type.
4. The Bladesinger gives out some awesome special abilities.
a. + Int Bonus up to BS level to AC
b. Take 10 on Concentration checks
c. 1 free action spell
d. Able to wear light armor (a bit of a down grade from the Duskblade, but still good for a spellcasting, dexterous, fighter)
e. +5 levels of arcane casting
Weighing the two, it is hard not to pick the bladesinger. If the Duskblade had a wider spell selection, they would be much more attractive. Their spells are made for damage output, and that I understand. They are an arcane version (more or less) of the Pyshic Warrior.
I would still like to hear others opinions.
I prefer Bladesinger.
First, I think multiclassing leads to a richer, more personalized character (I don't like getting wrapped up in PC optimization -- not knocking it, I just don't like it). Also, wizard levels give a better choice of spells to draw from.
In short, the Bladesinger has more interesting choices, in both the build and RPing options. IMO.
Jack
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Weighing the two, it is hard not to pick the bladesinger. If the Duskblade had a wider spell selection, they would be much more attractive. Their spells are made for damage output, and that I understand. They are an arcane version (more or less) of the Pyshic Warrior.
I would still like to hear others opinions.
This question really comes down to spell selection, in my opinion: do you want utility and options in your spellcasting, or are you satisfied with blasting away with range spells or cutting up your opponents with the help of buff spells? The wizard offers such an immense array of spells, and due to a spells-known list limited only by your DM and your funds, you have so many more options to choose from. As you pointed out, your build will still give you four attacks in a full attack at high levels, and the special abilities offered by the bladesinger more than make up for the slightly higher BAB and grace abilities of Thanis' build. The ability to add your Int bonus to weapon damage is certainly not comparable to Weapon Specialization, but it does help to offset the loss of that ability.
Personally, I ditch Bladesinger for Eldritch Knight; with a wizard build and the minimal four levels of fighter, you have access to eigth-level spells by 20th level. In my opinion, the spellcasting of the wizard class matched with a +17 BAB at 20th level make this build better than losing access to two levels of spells to gain an Int bonus to AC and the ability to wear ligth armor (the basic trade proposed by taking Bladesinger over Eldritch Knight). But, to each his own.
The ideal build would be an elven Swashbuckler 3/Duskblade 3/Bladesinger 2, then taking either Duskblade or Bladesinger levels (or perhaps Eldritch Knight) as you wish - everything else is just icing. He may want to advance Duskblade to 13th level - the Arcane Channeling (full attack) is a fairly impressive ability. His weapon should be a rapier. The character should also look to picking up the Einhander feat from the PH II - it grants special advantages when the character is wielding a weapon in one hand and nothing in the other hand.
Well, the main advantage of the build is that it is ALL about Dexterity and Intelligence. Your AC, your damage, your spellcasting - All are either based off of Int or get a boost from it, and Swashbuckler nets you Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. The character can wear light armor while casting spells, and gain the benefits of grace (admittedly only a +1 at 8th level, but hey, it's a +1). He gets his Intelligence bonus added to damage rolls at 3rd level, and Combat Casting as a bonus feat at 5th level. At 6th level, he gets iterative attacks since his base attack is all good despite multiclassing, and he can also choose to make a single attack and include the effects of one of his spells. At 7th level, the character gets a dodge bonus to AC equal to the lesser of his Intelligence bonus and Bladesinger class level, as long as he wears light or no armor. At 8th level, the character can take 10 on Concentration checks to cast defensively. So now at 8th level, he's got full base attack, a really good Fortitude save, and limited spellcasting. Beyond level 8, any levels he takes in any of these 3 classes more or less just adds on to what he has already gotten.
That's an inspired build, Thanis. Thanks for taking the time to explain it. :)
Maybe I'm getting my editions confused, but doesn't the bladesinger also offer (at 10th level) the ability to take a -2 to all attacks in a round, and gain an extra attack at your highest attack bonus? Getting 5 attacks a round (the -2 is easily offset by spells such as greater heroism) and the light armor/int bonus to AC lead me to lean toward the bladesinger.
I might be tempted to do (and this is a bit of my semi-repressed munchkinism coming out here) 3 swashbuckler/5 wizard/2 eldritch knight/10 bladesinger. This gets you the spells of a level 11 wizard, cast as 15th with practiced spellcaster, int to damage, a bonus feat, a couple extra hit points, bab 17 at level 20. I know a lot of people frown on more than one prestige class, but I think these fit together nicely. I've never played a duskblade (or really given their spell list a good look) but I know that I love to have a variety of spells available to me, which is why I tend to avoid sorcerors, and I think the same would hold true with duskblades.