I ran my players through their first session last night and it ended with a TPK. Everyone had fun and noone felt like they got screwed over, so that's good. :)
They met with Lavinia and took her up on her offer to get the Blue Nixie back. They decided the best course of action would be to try to talk to Vark. They were disappointed when they got to the docks and saw the boat was 100 feet out. The two aquatic characters swam over to the boat while the other 5 looked for a boat of some kind to use. I put in a small rowboat that holds 4 and the one character with high Swim ranks started swimming towards the boat.
The other 4 got in the rowboat. I had each make a balance check, DC 5, to get into the rowboat and not fall out, since it was tied to the dock but was still on water. 2 of them actually failed by 5 or more and fell into the water. The other two characters started rowing towards the Blue Nixie while the two in the water tried to make their way out (I threw in a ladder on the pier that went down the bottom of the water).
The two aquatic creatures tried to disable the rudder but one of the guards heard them and opened fire. Combat began and one of the players in the rowboat stood up to fire his bow. He actually hit a thug with a really good roll and, on his next round, got cocky and tried again. This time he failed his Balance check (he had to stand up to fire his bow in a moving rowboat) by enough to fall overboard. He, too, made his way to the ladder.
The two aquatic characters had made their way onboard and one was put into the negatives. The other one grabbed her and fell overboard.
The swimming character (non-aquatic) made her way to the rowboat and got in. That's when Vark shot at the other person in the rowboat and hit, also knocking her into the negatives.
The players retreated and had to give a statement to the District Watch. After giving statements and being told it would be investigated, they were approached by Kora who healed them and told them that Lavinia had bribed the guards to pay no attention to the Blue Nixie that evening.
That evening the players came up with a very good plan and putting 4 people in the rowboat covered up with a blanket. One character would hang on the back while the two aquatic players towed it underwater. The plan worked and two players made it onboard when initiative started.
Through a sequence of bad dice rolls, which included one of the two beefiest fighters not making his DC 10 climb check until 5 or 6 rounds into the combat, there were only 3 PCs up by the time the only had to deal with the rhagodessa in the hold. That didn't go well and, again, after a series of bad dice rolls, everyone died.
We'll start over next week and, hopefully, my players will take the advice I gave them to start and make more seaworthy characters. ;)
Oh, and we use the "Players Roll All The Dice" variant from the DMG2, so the PCs fate was well in their own hands.
Ugh. After all that, as a player, I'd asked for a different game. Sorry, but that read like, "death through analization."
What would you have done different?
Too many skill checks. Even someone with decent ranks in a skill will fail what should be easy tasks if you keep making them roll checks every time they breathe wrong. You changed the game from Role-playing to Roll-playing.
Just an opinion.FH
I can see that. What should I have done for someone standing up in a rowboat out in the middle of the harbor to fire a bow? Should I have let them do it with no problem?
How about getting into a boat that is tied by a single rope to the docks? One that is moving in the water and, in real life, a person would have to check their balance once they got in or fall overboard?
To me, the rolls simulated people using the skills they have to achieve a goal. It may seem like a lot of rolls, but here's what they rolled.
A single check by each character to get into the rowboat. (DC 5)
A single check by each character to climb the ropes to get onboard the Blue Nixie. (DC 10 per the adventure)
A check by a single character who stood up in a moving boat. (DC 5)
A Move Silently check by two characters to disable to rudder of the boat quietly when there are 3 guards on top. (Opposed Listen checks)
A Hide check by each character hiding in, and on, the rowboat.
Is that to much? Considering all of this happened over the span of 6 hours (real time), the 19 checks I listed above don't seem like a lot. The combats lasted about 2 hours of that. The rest of the time was spent roleplaying.
Too many skill checks. Even someone with decent ranks in a skill will fail what should be easy tasks if you keep making them roll checks every time they breathe wrong. You changed the game from Role-playing to Roll-playing.
Just an opinion.FH
I can see that. What should I have done for someone standing up in a rowboat out in the middle of the harbor to fire a bow? Should I have let them do it with no problem?
I think they were all pretty reasonable, except the getting into the boat check.
How about getting into a boat that is tied by a single rope to the docks? One that is moving in the water and, in real life, a person would have to check their balance once they got in or fall overboard?
To me, the rolls simulated people using the skills they have to achieve a goal. It may seem like a lot of rolls, but here's what they rolled.
A single check by each character to get into the rowboat. (DC 5)
A single check by each character to climb the ropes to get onboard the Blue Nixie. (DC 10 per the adventure)
A check by a single character who stood up in a moving boat. (DC 5)
A Move Silently check by two characters to disable to rudder of the boat quietly when there are 3 guards on top. (Opposed Listen checks)
A Hide check by each character hiding in, and on, the rowboat.
Is that to much? Considering all of this happened over the span of 6 hours (real time), the 19 checks I listed above don't seem like a lot. The combats lasted about 2 hours of that. The rest of the time was spent roleplaying.
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I can see that. What should I have done for someone standing up in a rowboat out in the middle of the harbor to fire a bow? Should I have let them do it with no problem?
How about getting into a boat that is tied by a single rope to the docks? One that is moving in the water and, in real life, a person would have to check their balance once they got in or fall overboard?
To me, the rolls simulated people using the skills they have to achieve a goal. It may seem like a lot of rolls, but here's what they rolled.
A single check by each character to get into the rowboat. (DC 5)
A single check by each character to climb the ropes to get onboard the Blue Nixie. (DC 10 per the adventure)
A check by a single character who stood up in a moving boat. (DC 5)
A Move Silently check by two characters to disable to rudder of the boat quietly when there are 3 guards on top. (Opposed Listen checks)
A Hide check by each character hiding in, and on, the rowboat.
Is that to much? Considering all of this happened over the span of 6 hours (real time), the 19 checks I listed above don't seem like a lot. The combats lasted about 2 hours of that. The rest of the time was spent roleplaying.
The standing in the rowboat bugs me. Why did he think it was a good idea to stand in the rowboat? Why didn't he have some description to help him come to the conclusion that it may be a bad idea.
How long did the ones trying to sabotage the rudder have? Could they have taken 10? Did you account for distance between the guards and them and how noisy water smacking up against the side of a boat is? It covers alot of noise up.I am not trying to pick you apart, I was only offering some thoughts. Don't be offended, as I mean no slight. There is a TON of things that modify conditions and skill checks, and it is a shame to see the PCs work lost due to some minor skill checks. It should've been a given to get into the rowboat unless they were rushed or threatened.
They also could've planned better (ladders brought over to help board, ropes and grappling hooks, couple tanglefoot bags, maybe a net or 3).
How did the lil' man in the boat (hee-hee)fail a DC 5 check by enough to fall? What was his armor check penalty and what did he/she roll to have a 0 for a skill check? A 1 on skill checks isn't an autofail. Just curious on the last.
Like I said, I am not attacking you, I am just sad that such a great potential encounter sunk the party. I would only make the PCs roll their own rolls also, gives you more leeway to help avoid TPKs.
as always, IMO
FH
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#1: the guys disabling the rudder should have stayed fully underwater to do so. Bullets don't go very far underwater; I doubt crossbow bolts do either. I think that might be on them; but I can't really see somebody on the ship being hip to a couple of Navy Seals underwater shanking up the rudder if that's how they played it.
#2: did the guy with the bow have a shortbow or a longbow? (I assume) that a guy with a shortbow could reasonably fire sitting down in a boat; people fired from horseback all the time and the difference is negligible. I don't know who that one's on.
A note on skill checks --- whenever a PC is not a high-stress situation (like combat), they can take 10 on (almost?) any skill check. Asking for a DC 5 Balance check to get into a rowboat is not unreasonable; however, all the PCs should have been allowed to take 10 instead of rolling --- they take time and care to step in. Unless they have a -10 armor check penalty, they're not going to fall in the drink.
The archer probably should have been allowed to fire from one knee in the boat. If he was using a longbow, he could have turned it sideways in a crossbow orientation --- very "Legolasian." Remember, this is fantasy; PCs should be allowed to do semi-fantastic things, even at 1st level.
Unless there were pirates leaning over the rail and shooting at him, I probably would have allowed the fighter to take 10 on his Climb check as well; though sometimes bad rolls happen to good people and that's all there is to it.
I don't feel slighted by anyone, just to let y'all know. I'm always looking for ways to become a better DM. :)
The guy in the rowboat had a long bow, so firing while sitting was not really an option. He actually did it twice. The first time, he stood up and fired and I said give me a balance check and I told him why. He passed, and actually hit, and tried it again the next round. If he had said something like "I don't do it" or "I hold it sideways" then I would've been let him but he didn't and I didn't think about the sideways thing.
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All three that fell out of the boat failed by 5 or more. Yes, they all sucked. ;)
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They could have taken 10 to disable the rudder if they had asked but that wouldn't have been enough to disable it. They really didn't have the proper equipment. And, yes, I took distance and other noises into account, but when one of the PCs gets a 3 on a Move Silently check and the guard on the quarterdeck directly above them gets a 19, it doesn't matter. ;)
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If all of this hadn't happened in combat, I would've gladly let them take 10. In fact, when they went back that night, I didn't have anyone make checks getting back into the rowboat. They just all did it.
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They could have taken 10 to disable the rudder if they had asked but that wouldn't have been enough to disable it. They really didn't have the proper equipment. And, yes, I took distance and other noises into account, but when one of the PCs gets a 3 on a Move Silently check and the guard on the quarterdeck directly above them gets a 19, it doesn't matter. ;)
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If all of this hadn't happened in combat, I would've gladly let them take 10. In fact, when they went back that night, I didn't have anyone make checks getting back into the rowboat. They just all did it.
I wasn't saying to take 10 on the disable, take 10 on move silently. Unless the guards were on high-alert they shouldn't have rolled a check, they should be assumed to be taking 10, with penalties for boredom, inattentiveness, distance, ect.
Did they try to disable the rudder of a 3-masted sailing ship during combat?
If so they deserved to be TPKed.
FH
I wasn't saying to take 10 on the disable, take 10 on move silently. Unless the guards were on high-alert they shouldn't have rolled a check, they should be assumed to be taking 10, with penalties for boredom, inattentiveness, distance, ect.
Did they try to disable the rudder of a 3-masted sailing ship during combat?
If so they deserved to be TPKed.FH
If they had taken 10, the highest they would have gotten was 11. 11 versus 19, even with penalties for boredom et al., is not enough.
No, it wasn't during combat.
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If they had taken 10, the highest they would have gotten was 11. 11 versus 19, even with penalties for boredom et al., is not enough.
No, it wasn't during combat.
Then the guards shouldn't have rolled a listen check. They weren't actively trying to listen for something. They were bored guards on duty in the harbor 100 ft from land in the middle of the night. They should've been assumed to be taking 10 with penalties, not rolling listen checks unless they were on alert from previous actions. 11 should've probably been enough to keep the tired, bored guards from noticing as they patrol the 100' deck 15' above the rudder.
I hate to say it but.....your group came up with a fair plan and you skill checked them to death.Put yourself in the guards' position: you pulled late-night guard duty....again, you are on a huge boat a good distance from the docks, it is the middle of the night and you are on deck with 2 other guards keeping an eye out for any strange vessels approaching, who the heck is gonna swim out 100' to the ship? You would be hearing the gentle lapping of the waves against the side of the boat, the creaking of ropelines, the hollow sounds of your fellow guard's boot across the deck, the animals rustling about in the hold. I don't think you would be able to hear much in the way of someone jamming the rudder up with a makeshift wedge of some sort who was trying to be quiet.
Sorry, you asked.
FH
I am not entirely familiar with how sound transmit from water to open air but I do know (correctly, I hope) that sound moves better in water. However, how much noise would jamming a nonmoving rudder (again, I really do not know much about ships but I would imagine that an anchored ship's rudder is not moving) make? Furthermore, it is at least 10 feet from the waterline to the railing, so it is probably at least 15-20 feet from the rudder to the railing. The Blue Nixie is a big boat.
Anyways, having done double-shifts on a job myself (including night shifts), I realised the thugs would only need to make Spot or Listen checks once the pcs start boarding the ship or come within 30 feet of the ship on a rowboat (boredom is a real threat on the job and you quickly find something to keep yourself amused or distracted). And even then, I would only make 1 spot and listen check for each of the thugs that could conceivably warrant having to make those checks.
On a side note, I personally sometimes make recommendations to my players if they seem intent on doing something bad. Why do I do this? Because it is incredibly hard to roleplay and think like a character with an Intelligence of 13 or higher or a Wisdom of 13 or higher. An Intelligence of 13 is akin to having an IQ score of 130 (or so I am told). So whenever they embark on a course of action, from time to time I will let them know what they could do to make things easier for themselves.
Yet, this still does not bar my players from insisting on a course of action that is plainly suicidal from time to time. Their excuse? "It would look cool thematically."
CB out.
FH... You should just switch to a completely diceless system, where no one ever rolls anything.
Next. As for taking 10s, its the players choice to take 10 or not. Also I haven't looked everything up but can you even take a ten on listen checks? If so, its really the DMs choice whether they want to or not, the 'luck' factor of the opposed roll is what determines if someone was actually paying attention. One of the guards got a 19, maybe he something had happened and he was really high strung, or a new recruit who, being so new, hadn't let himself be distracted by the games or such that the other guards had gotten themselves into for amusement sakes. Also, one fighter was trying to climb the rope while the rest was up top fighting, right? Therefore that could be considered stressed and he couldn't have taken a 10, and therefore would had to skill roll all them times and still fail.
That being said, if a party continues to push forward when the odds are going against them, then they are taking the risk of being TPK'd. It sucks, but that is the game, if they was no risk of death, the game wouldn't be fun.
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FH... You should just switch to a completely diceless system, where no one ever rolls anything.
Next. As for taking 10s, its the players choice to take 10 or not. Also I haven't looked everything up but can you even take a ten on listen checks? If so, its really the DMs choice whether they want to or not, the 'luck' factor of the opposed roll is what determines if someone was actually paying attention. One of the guards got a 19, maybe he something had happened and he was really high strung, or a new recruit who, being so new, hadn't let himself be distracted by the games or such that the other guards had gotten themselves into for amusement sakes. Also, one fighter was trying to climb the rope while the rest was up top fighting, right? Therefore that could be considered stressed and he couldn't have taken a 10, and therefore would had to skill roll all them times and still fail.
That being said, if a party continues to push forward when the odds are going against them, then they are taking the risk of being TPK'd. It sucks, but that is the game, if they was no risk of death, the game wouldn't be fun.
The OP stated that combat wasn't happening at the time of the listen checks.
I like rolling the dice but not when it isn't called for. The boat is 100'+ long, 3 guards were on deck, how do all of them get a roll to hear something happening at one end of the ship. There is a -1 per 10' modifier to listen checks. The characters were also 15' down and had the ship's hull blocking direct sound. Maybe 1 guard would be close enough to warrant a listen check and even that would've been at a fairly good penalty.Yes, you can take 10 on any skill check that is being performed will unthreatened. Alot of adventures list pre-calculated listen checks with the guards taking 10 and with environmental and other pertanent adjustments.
If you keep rolling enough even the best Move Silently check will fail. I hate quoting rules but page 78-79 of the PHB states "In the case of people trying to be quiet, the DCs given on the table could be replaced by Move Silently checks, in which case the indicated DC would be their average check result (or close to it). For instance, the DC 19 noted on the table for a cat stalking means that an average cat has a +9 bonus on Move Silently checks. Assuming an average roll of 10 on 1d20, its Move Silently check result would be 19.".
Listen checks were rolled for 2 guards who couldn't have heard the characters. Combat happened because of the failed extraneous checks. Everything afterward is the result of the PCs trying to salvage their failed (due to unwarranted checks) plan.
TPK was the result of too many checks that shouldn't have been made.
I fully understand that there is risk in D&D, but risks due to DM errors suck because the players are being cheated.
and try not to sound so confrontational, Arc. It makes you look petty.
FH
I am sorry, but your quoted rule seems to say nothing about assuming everyone is taking a 10. As a matter of fact it seems to suggest that if people are trying to be quiet, the DCs can be replaced by Move Silently, you are btw, quoting from the Player's Handbook, so you have to assume the reserve in this case. The players could have rolled listen checks against DC 5, with a bunch of minuses for distance of course. Since I don't see players attempting to swim around on that DC page, that means to me, that the move silently dc should be the player's move silently roll, in the case of a person rolling a 3, we can assume that the move silently DC is 3 - 10 or make it 12 for distance, -5 for the guards playing around... so DC 18, which the guard made with a 19, Oh, guess the guard heard them, to bad. It was still and opposed roll, and I gotta look up some of the adventures were it assumed NPCs take 10s on things like listen checks, because I never seen one at all, I always seen their modifier given, or that the party has no means of not hiding so the blue dragon a hundred feet above them in a cave mouth will automatically hear them when they appoach even at the minuses for distant (RHOD)
In closing, Don't quote rules that can be twisted around, its like dressing yourself in makeup and a dress and going to an all-male prison.
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Maybe you should read and absorb everything in a post instead of focusing on one or two points and totally ignoring other factors. Where is your opinion on this part of my last post?
"Listen checks were rolled for 2 guards who couldn't have heard the characters. Combat happened because of the failed extraneous checks. Everything afterward is the result of the PCs trying to salvage their failed (due to unwarranted checks) plan."
Like I said before, 1 check should've been made for a guard who was nearest to the rudder. 3 checks was a bad call.
Now you can remove the dress.
FH
Like I said before, 1 check should've been made for a guard who was nearest to the rudder. 3 checks was a bad call.
I made the checks in order. I rolled a check for the guard nearest the rudder first, then a check for the first guard on the main deck, and a check for the second guard on the main deck. In order, I rolled a 20 and then two rolls less than 10 each. Even if I hadn't made three checks, the first check made would have succeeded.
You should listen to your own advice there Healer, you do realize that the combat that started because of that roll was not the combat in which the party got killed in. They retreated from that combat safely, and made a new plan. Thanks, but I don't look good in that color dress, you can keep wearing it, oh that guy over there said he wants your number. Ciao.
Anyways, word dueling aside, I am sure there was plenty of stuff that could have saved the party, both from players and maybe the DM, but no one should ever pull punches, it robs the players of their glory or lack thereof in this case. As long as the group had fun playing it then it can't be to bad... time for a new party and an alternate introduction into the Savage Tides!
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You should listen to your own advice there Healer, you do realize that the combat that started because of that roll was not the combat in which the party got killed in. They retreated from that combat safely, and made a new plan. Thanks, but I don't look good in that color dress, you can keep wearing it, oh that guy over there said he wants your number. Ciao.
Anyways, word dueling aside, I am sure there was plenty of stuff that could have saved the party, both from players and maybe the DM, but no one should ever pull punches, it robs the players of their glory or lack thereof in this case. As long as the group had fun playing it then it can't be to bad... time for a new party and an alternate introduction into the Savage Tides!
I was also unaware that the FIRST listen check was the high one. The OP didn't make it very clear and you know what they say about when you assume......
Anywho, Arc, it seems I was wrong so I apologize to you(you were a bit snippy though).FH (now where is that crow?!?)
Hey, Anthony, don't feel too bad. From what I've seen, just about every group has had a hard time with the Blue Nixie encounter including my own. They had their asses handed to them, but lived to survive it and withdraw in humiliation. They came back later after getting some quick healing and had a much better plan that did the trick.
My advice to facilitate great fun playing the game instead of a lot of rolls that can foul things up for you and your players is to ask yourself "Is there any danger or negative outcome that could come about by this action?" If so, have your players make some rolls.
For example, the DC you set for standing in the boat and firing a bow was so low that nearly any average character could make it. Likewise, a character with a swim modifier that would average at least 10 or more shouldn't be made to make the rolls until actually threatened. When the thugs on the Blue Nixie begin returning fire on your player's archer standing in the boat, then have him make Balance checks if he is actually hit (remember that the PC is also flat-footed while balancing unless he/she has 5 or more ranks in Balance). In this case you could go with a DC 10 check or maybe stick with the base DC 5 you mentioned and add a difficulty modifer equal to the amount of damage the PC took. Just a suggestion on that one.
With the Swim checks, you could start asking for rolls when they are near the Blue Nixie to see if they can approach without making a lot of splashing sounds or successfully stay hidden under the water's surface as they approach. Again, that's a different way of handling the checks and keeps you from forcing too many rolls on the players that can slow down the pace of play and ruin moments that should be glossed over by the possibility of horrible rolls.
Anyway, I want to again remind you that the majority of gaming groups I've read about on these boards had a lot of difficulty with this encounter so don't feel bad.