I just finished rereading Honor for the third time prepping for my group and was amazed by how much gold there was. A group with questionable ethics and good diplomacy could easily end up with 25,000 or so gold worth of treasure by the end. Thats not even including the magic items. That seems high for an adventure for 1st and 2nd level.
I know I can cut it back a bit easy enough, I was just suprised. Anyone else amazed by that?
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I just finished rereading Honor for the third time prepping for my group and was amazed by how much gold there was. A group with questionable ethics and good diplomacy could easily end up with 25,000 or so gold worth of treasure by the end. Thats not even including the magic items. That seems high for an adventure for 1st and 2nd level.
I know I can cut it back a bit easy enough, I was just suprised. Anyone else amazed by that?
Characters should be 3rd level by adventure's end, but 25,000 around 2x what they should have according to the Wealth By Level guidelines. However, Dungeon magazine's adventures are notoriously difficult and usually partys go through alot of consumable magic items (potions, scrolls, etc) so they sometimes up the amount of treasure found to correspond to the lethality of the adventure.
Another thought is that they may be giving more early to make up for a lack of treasure in upcoming adventures.The wealth by level guideline is still only a rough gauge and nerfing it back and forth through different levels still could make the average stay close to scale.
Have faith, Dungeon's staff knows what they are doing.
FH
I just finished rereading Honor for the third time prepping for my group and was amazed by how much gold there was. A group with questionable ethics and good diplomacy could easily end up with 25,000 or so gold worth of treasure by the end. Thats not even including the magic items. That seems high for an adventure for 1st and 2nd level.
I know I can cut it back a bit easy enough, I was just suprised. Anyone else amazed by that?
Edit: Woops - looks like I am echoing the esteemed Fake Healer's thoughts on this one :)
I think this was explained in a previous thread as the compensation for TINH being more challenging than most 1st level adventures. That has been a standard for all of the Adventure Paths, from what I understand.
Since so much of this AP will take place in 'wilderness' environs, opportunities to purchase magic items/equipment on short notice will be quite limited. This extra money would allow the party to stockpile on necessary support items (potions, wands, travel gear, etc.) to survive their journeys.
If you are concerned that your party will not spend the money wisely, you could always substitute a portion of it for said support items. They then have what they need, with a little extra for their troubles (but not so much that they can go crazy with it).
Just my two coppers worth - hope that helps a little :)
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
I think one of the problems is throwing in the "questionable ethics" aspects for a party. 11,500 gp of treasure in the game belongs to the Vanderboren's. If the party chose to ditch Lavinia or steal her stuff, they could indeed make out with a ton of extra money. I won't have to worry about this with my party (all Good alignment) but if it were a possible problem, I'd throw in balancing factors. Tax collectors would notice them spending huge amounts in the city, or those owed money by the Vanderborens might use magical means to track down the Vanderboren money (which they consider theirs...). Or Vanthus could simply have already taken everything/a larger amount.
Another 5,450 gp in treasure represents goods stolen throughout Sasserine. These goods might also be tracked down by previous owners, or recognized as stolen when the party tries to sell things.
If the party starts falling behind the recommended GP curve, open up the gates a bit, and if they're ahead of the curve, tighten things up. The DM has full control, after all, over what the party finds in any adventure.
Creative Director
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Yes; the adventure assumes that the majority of the "treasure" in the adventrue is returned to Lavinia Vanderboren rather than kept by the PCs. If the PCs decide to take Rowyn up on her offer to join the Lotus Dragons, of course, the treasure stays with Rowyn.
SO: Only if the PCs betray Lavinia AND Rowyn will they get to keep all the treasure in the adventure. At this point, you have more than just a "too rich" PC problem; you have PCs who are more interested in cutting their own path through the game rather than playing Savage Tide. As a result, you might want to consider using the adventures and backdrops as resources to run a more open campaign that doesn't follow the Savage Tide plotline.
In any event, if the PCs keep all the money they get, you should feel free to have agents of the Lotus Dragons (and their sponsor, the Kellani nobles) and the Vanderborens (and their allies, who consist of several other noble families) start to track down the PCs and harrass them. Certainly if they try to pawn a lot of the Vanderboren treasure, they'll need to look for shady fences and dealers, for honest shopkeepers will recognize anything obviously stolen (such as anything that bears the Vanderboren family crest).
And in closing... over the past several years, I've come to the opinion that the wealth guidelines in the DMG are a little tricky. They work fine for estimating how much gold a PC should have at any given level, but they don't work so well for estimating how much treasure to hand out in an adventure. Becasue a lot of stuff PCs will sell (for half price), or destroy (in the case of evil items) or donate (in the case of some pious parties who find holy items), or just ignore (in the case of parties who forget to loot bodies or don't realize things like tapestries are valuable). On top of that, paying for resurrections can REALLY make a dent in the party's wealth. You should certainly use the expected wealth tables to keep an eye on your party as the campaign progresses, but we do indeed tend to over-populate our adventures with more treasure than this for the reasons I just mentioned.
Yes; the adventure assumes that the majority of the "treasure" in the adventrue is returned to Lavinia Vanderboren rather than kept by the PCs. If the PCs decide to take Rowyn up on her offer to join the Lotus Dragons, of course, the treasure stays with Rowyn.
I do my own 'preadventure' calculations any time I run a published adventure, just to see what experience totals and treasure I can expect my players to have by the time they are finished.
Running a party of 6 (I've got 7 players but one will be a no-show for session 1), they should be just into 2nd level by the time they leave parrot island. Taking cash and gems at face value, and items at 1/2 value (their actual value if sold), they end up with just over 1100gp each. This would not be including any charged items or consumables used. Assuming they do use some potions, wand charges, etc, this puts them almost exactly at the 900gp a first level character should have.
I then totaled the experience and gold they could expect to find prior to the final fight in the adventure, assuming the missing player shows up for my second game session. Assuming they explore the majority of the place, and find everything of value, they'll be just into level 3, and have accumulated another 1800gp in treasure.
Granted, my party is a bit larger than the standard 4 player group, but these numbers are pretty close to what the standard wealth guidelines are. As at least 2, and maybe 3 members of the party will be affiliated with the Dawn Council, I'm pretty confident that any ill-gotten gains will be returned to their rightful owners.
Certainly if they try to pawn a lot of the Vanderboren treasure, they'll need to look for shady fences and dealers, for honest shopkeepers will recognize anything obviously stolen (such as anything that bears the Vanderboren family crest).
Just how much of the treasure in D33 are the players meant to keep if any? It's all listed as stolen, but only one chest appears to be obviously so with the Vanderboren crest on the bags. Are the players
a) meant to realise the other 5,450gp worth of stuff is also stolen goods.
b) Turn it over to the watch?
c) Get any reward if they do?
e) Get arrested if they get caught trying to sell it?
You could assume that much of the other treasure is stolen, but offer a finder's fee of some percentage(10%? 25%?) to the party. You might also replace it with a single valuable magic item of use to the party of comparable value.
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Creative Director
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If i would give them a treasure each then the rogue will run amok with the ring of invisibility, the fighter would have a 30+ AC with the mithral breats plate +4, the other fighter will have the animated shield, then the crazy powerful weapons, the pearl, hh it's just too much. Like a christmas eve with your richest relative who you didnt see for the last 3 years... :) Anyway thanks for the advice!
AC 30+ is actually not that crazy by the time the PCs are in Tides of Dread, especially for a cleric. At 8th level (the midpoint of Tides), a cleric can technically have an AC of 29 by round 2 of a fight by wearing full plate, using a heavy shield, casting magic vestment on the armor and shield, and then casting shield of faith on round 1 of the combat. Assuming that the cleric has at least a Dexterity of 12 and an amulet of natural armor +1, presto. AC 29 with only 2,000 gp worth of magic items. And since the cleric can just as easilly cast those spells on the fighter's armor... that's just as good for him. When you add actual magic items into the scene, it's certainly easy to get above and AC of 30 in this situation.
In any event, Savage Tide is going to become pretty tough as the higher levels come along. The PCs are going to need all the help (in the form of magic items) they can get.
As the starter of this thread, I figure I should of posted an update of how it worked out for my group:
My group of players function as a blunt instument, most of the time smashing their way through encounters and ignoring any subtle clues. I ended up having to make the treasure in parrot island "obvious" or they would of skipped it, and when in the lotus guild, they smashed their way straight to Rowyn in like 4 rooms, took her captive then fought their way out. They didn't go after most of the loot in the place but left it full of thieves who cleaned out the place.
They did the same in Bullywug Gambit, and were actually behind on wealth by the end that I actually gave up some free gifts from lavinia before taking a sea journey. If my group was a bit more observant they would of ended up with a boatload as they would of kept it rather than turning it in. In the end they missed most of it.
Heck my group keep collecting and selling all the hand-crossbows and rapiers, at one point they asked if they could unscrew the silver light fittings in Rowyn's room.
Heck my group keep collecting and selling all the hand-crossbows and rapiers, at one point they asked if they could unscrew the silver light fittings in Rowyn's room.
Same story with my group. They were smart enough to realize that you don't pass up on that kind of money at low level. By the end of Bullywug Gambit, they had earned a good bit of coin from salvaging and selling off all of that 'used' gear. They had to work to get it all, so kudos to them for being able to make more money and get better gear for themselves!
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
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It's all frontloading man, if your running the game, read ahead to about "Here There Be Monsters" and add up the treasuer rewarded and the opportunities to purchase treasure and gear they get to sell. The city of Farshore has an 800 gp. limit. If you dont have a crafter/brewer/scriber in the party your SOL for better gear betweeen the 2nd through possibly the 5th module. Especially if you hold tight to the crafting/brewing/scribing rules, then you might not be able to do anything until they get to Farshore.
Let the party feel heavily rewarded for their efforts early on, that way when they crash on the Isle, and begin to feel the pinch for purchasing new gear over the next few levels, you can use that to raise the feeling of isolation and the need for survival, I can tell my party will definatly be changing thier skill and feat choices by the time they hit the 3rd module. If they dont feel the pinch, they might not be as obliged to help organize the people of Farshore.
-Greene
Jason, some good points there and see my next thread on 'Experience Issues in The Sea Wyvern's Wake', posting as soon as I can finish it!
You might also use the lack to encourage party efforts to improve the community.
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My group of players function as a blunt instument, most of the time smashing their way through encounters and ignoring any subtle clues. I ended up having to make the treasure in parrot island "obvious" or they would of skipped it,
That sounds like a lot of hand-holding to me. If they're too much of a "blunt instrument" to look for loot, they shouldn't find it. You shouldn't reward their sloppy behavior by handing them treasure under the assumption that they won't look for it. If they don't look for it, they should miss it. Otherwise what's the point of putting it in a room with a hidden secret door. It had a relatively high DC for a reason. Sometimes, parties who ARE being thorough will miss it just because the rogue rolled poorly and nobody else has a decent spot check at level 2-ish.
You shouldn't just hand them treasure. If someone in the party points out that they're behind the DMG "schedule" for it, that would be a good time to tell them to do a better job of looking, because it's certainly there to be had.
Otherwise what's the point of putting it in a room with a hidden secret door. It had a relatively high DC for a reason.
It did? I couldn't find the DC for the Secret Door written anywhere, either in P4's description or P5's.
Sometimes, parties who ARE being thorough will miss it just because the rogue rolled poorly and nobody else has a decent spot check at level 2-ish.
Or they don't have a reason to search and don't have an elf in the party. Look at the map of the Lotus Dragon's guild hall.
If the party enter via D9, rather than the taxidermist's then there is no way they will discover the secret doors since they are 5 ft up so won't be discovered on a normal search of the room at floor level.
I'm also curious as to why they are only five feet up, since the water rises to 8ft above the roof which is 20ft above the floor so a door only 5ft above the floor is going to be submerged under water, but that's a separate matter.
Assuming they get out of D9, after all a rogue is daft enough to fire shoot through the illusionary wall giving away it's nature, they are then in a circular pathway going connecting several round rooms. None of these rooms is a dead end, so there is no reason to search for a secret door anywhere, without searching everywhere. Again no DC is given for the doors leading off the circular rooms in D10, but then without an elf in the party or spending an eternity taking 20 on ever 5ft square in the path they are never going to get anywhere.
You shouldn't just hand them treasure.
I would argue that throwing a first level party against 9 CR 1 monster and another CR 3 monster is far from handing them the treasure.
If someone in the party points out that they're behind the DMG "schedule" for it, that would be a good time to tell them to do a better job of looking, because it's certainly there to be had.
Or they resort to adventures in accounting, and try and loot everything of any conceivable value off a corpse. Personally I'd prefer to hand them the treasure than have them penny pinch collecting rapiers and hand-crossbows for resale.
It did? I couldn't find the DC for the Secret Door written anywhere, either in P4's description or P5's.
Go with the old stand-by, then: DC 20. This makes it possible for anyone in the group to notice it, but doesn't make it too easy.
If the party enter via D9, rather than the taxidermist's then there is no way they will discover the secret doors since they are 5 ft up so won't be discovered on a normal search of the room at floor level.
A Search check will actually find anything within 10 feet of the searcher, unless they are specifically looking at a 5-foot-cubic area.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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A Search check will actually find anything within 10 feet of the searcher, unless they are specifically looking at a 5-foot-cubic area.
Are you sure you aren't confusing the rules for the distance you can search at with the rules for how long it takes to search?
Check: You generally must be within 10 feet of the object or surface to be searched. The table below gives DCs for typical tasks involving the Search skill.
Action: It takes a full-round action to search a 5-foot-by-5-foot area or a volume of goods 5 feet on a side.
Way I read it, you can search up to 10 feet away, but each 5x5 area takes a full round.
Russ