A'My is an unsuspecting fighter, looking for an opponent who has just winked out of existance. B'Ob is a rogue with the TWF feat who has just quaffed a potion of invisibility. B'Ob sneaks up on A'My, and attacks her with both weapons.
Here's the rub: Does B'Ob get to add sneak attack damage for each weapon? I don't want opinions, or colorful explanations of why he does or does not; I want references to rules.
Thanks!
Does B'Ob get to add sneak attack damage for each weapon? I don't want opinions, or colorful explanations of why he does or does not; I want references to rules.
The FAQ answers your question:
"If later attacks in a round no longer meet any requirement to be a sneak attack, they aren't sneak attacks. For example, a rogue under the effect of an invisibility spell would deal sneak attack damage only with her first attack in a round, because she turns visible as soon as she makes the attack."
And on this point the FAQ is correct.
Thanks.
My question regarding that point becomes this: Do all TWF attack occur simultaneously, or does one come before another?
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According to the laws of physics, it would be impossible for the two attacks to happen exactly at the same time. Close, but not exactly. Assuming the laws of physics in your game world are parallel to our own, ex the odd magic spell or extraplanar gate, this would hold true. Therefore, one comes before the other.
That is not a question that anything I have ever read in the rules can explicitly answer. My judgement and ruling has always been that they are sequential, not simultaneous. Different rulings are, of course, perfectly valid interpretations, given the absence of an explicit answer within the rules.
I think the intent of the rules, based on FAQ rulings (that only the first attack is a sneak attack), is that all attacks are sequential.
Rule: The Two Weapon Fighting feat allows a character to wield two weapons, period. It does not allow these weapons to be used simultaneously in one strike. That requires a different feat (see below).
Rule: The Dual Strike feat allows a character to wield two weapons and attack with them simultaneously, using a single die roll to resolve both attacks. It does allow these weapons to be used [i]simultaneously, in a sneak attack. Both weapons will hit or miss with one roll; if both hit, sneak attack damage will be applied, once, for the attack.
Summary: Sneak attack bonus, whether applied for one weapon or two, is applied for only the first attack, regardless of how many are made during that character's actions. If a character makes a full attack while invisible, his first attack will be for a sneak attack bonus, if applicable, while the rest will be normal attacks.
M
Interstingly enough, the FAQ from Wizards states:
If a rogue gets multiple attacks in a round (such as from
a high base attack bonus or the Rapid Shot feat), can she
make sneak attacks for all of them?
"Yes, but only if each attack meets a requirement to be a
sneak attack. For instance, a rogue who flanks an enemy can
deliver a sneak attack with every melee attack she makes. A
rogue under the effect of a greater invisibility spell treats every
attack as a sneak attack, since she remains invisible despite
attacking.
If later attacks in a round no longer meet any requirement
to be a sneak attack, they aren’t sneak attacks. For example, a
rogue under the effect of an invisibility spell would deal sneak
attack damage only with her first attack in a round, because she
turns visible as soon as she makes the attack."
This has always been my interpretation. Where sneak attack doesn't apply is when attacking using some special ability, such as the Manyshot feat, where you can fire several arrows as a standard action. In that case sneak attack damage only applies to the first arrow.
Rule: The Two Weapon Fighting feat allows a character to wield two weapons, period. It does not allow these weapons to be used simultaneously in one strike. That requires a different feat (see below).
M
Thanks for the clarification. I wish I would have had this argument at hand three hours ago, before taking 2d6 sneak attack damage twice :)
Interstingly enough, the FAQ from Wizards states:
If a rogue gets multiple attacks in a round (such as from a high base attack bonus or the Rapid Shot feat), can she make sneak attacks for all of them?
"Yes, but only if each attack meets a requirement to be a sneak attack. For instance, a rogue who flanks an enemy can deliver a sneak attack with every melee attack she makes. A rogue under the effect of a greater invisibility spell treats every attack as a sneak attack, since she remains invisible despite attacking.
If later attacks in a round no longer meet any requirement to be a sneak attack, they aren’t sneak attacks. For example, a rogue under the effect of an invisibility spell would deal sneak attack damage only with her first attack in a round, because she turns visible as soon as she makes the attack."This has always been my interpretation. Where sneak attack doesn't apply is when attacking using some special ability, such as the Manyshot feat, where you can fire several arrows as a standard action. In that case sneak attack damage only applies to the first arrow.
I stand 33% corrected;
As David put much more succinctly than I did, the point is that a sneak attack is possible only if the conditions that allow it are met, per attack.
If invisibility allowed a sneak attack and the attacker's invisibility is dispelled by that attack, then any following attacks are not sneak attacks.
Flanking allows multiple sneak attacks because after the first attack, the attacker is still flanking. The same goes for persistent, Improved Invisibility.
M
Rule: The Two Weapon Fighting feat allows a character to wield two weapons, period. It does not allow these weapons to be used simultaneously in one strike. That requires a different feat (see below).
This point isn't quite true. You can opt to wield two weapons without the feat. The feat just reduces the penalties from it.
Otherwise, I agree with the rest of the info, and the conclusion.
--John
Rule: The Dual Strike feat allows a character to wield two weapons and attack with them simultaneously, using a single die roll to resolve both attacks. It does allow these weapons to be used [i]simultaneously, in a sneak attack. Both weapons will hit or miss with one roll; if both hit, sneak attack damage will be applied, once, for the attack.
M
I don't think my players are familiar with that feat (I wasn't). Thanks for the heads up on this one, Marc.
Is it a surprise round? If so the rogue could get a sneak attack, beat the opponent for initiative and get a full attack against the opponent flat-footed (full sneak attack).
FH
This is exactly what the rogue in the AP Irunning does. She sneaks up on them then makes a single sneak attack on the suprise round. She then normally wins initiative (she has a +11) and does a full round of sneak attacks. After that she hopes that the critter is dead since she is small and only doing 1d4+1 after that.
the only thing left is feinting in combat, which as the rules state, you make an opposed Bluff check, and your opponent is denied his DEX for your next attack.
This is ususally only a one attack a round option (Bluff and Attack), unless you have something like Feint Mastery from the Invisible Blade Prestige class which allows you to feint in combat as a FREE ACTION.
However, the errata for the Invisible Blade PrC states that you can still only feint once per round. So while you get to make a full attack, your feint only applies to the first one.
That pretty much covers all of the sneak attack permutations.
Not really. ;) We haven't gone into all the permutations of losing your Dex mod to AC. Flat-footed is only one way for that to happen. Some of the ways to lose your Dex mod to AC include:
Being stunned
Climbing
making a Balance check while you have fewer than 5 ranks
being the subject of a hold person (or similar) spell
There's probably more. :)
being the subject of a hold person (or similar) spell
Under a hold effect, or any time you're paralyzed, it's also a Coup de Grace situation because you don't just lose your DEX bonus. You're considered helpless.
Might as well write the victim up as a goner when a rogue puts them under the knife under this sitch.
Edit: There's also sneak attacks of opportunity, if you have the right feat.
In many cases, a rogue is better off not making a coup de grace. A CdG is a full-round action; if the rogue gets a significant number of attacks in a full-attack, there are times he'll be better off making that full attack than making one attack and forcing a a Fortitude save. Not often, of course, but it's something to keep in mind. ;)
In many cases, a rogue is better off not making a coup de grace. A CdG is a full-round action; if the rogue gets a significant number of attacks in a full-attack, there are times he'll be better off making that full attack than making one attack and forcing a a Fortitude save. Not often, of course, but it's something to keep in mind. ;)
There is a Feat out there that allows a CdG as a standard action, but the pre req's are pretty tight. Nasty thing, that is.
M
Yep, but that still only allows you to make one a round. My point was that a rogue who gets five attacks a round (between iterative attacks, TWF, and so on) might be better off making those five attacks - and dealing massive amounts of sneak attack each hit - than making one attack, and hoping the creature fails the Fort save.
It probably wouldn't occur often, because the save DC for the CdG should be really darn high. It's just one of those things to keep in mind.
Absolutely. The group I am DMing got caught flat-footed by an invisible creature, and that won the ensuing initiative. The lead fighter took a suprise round and then a full round of sneak attacks. The claw and bite damage was insignificant compared to the 20d6 sneak attack damage he took.
I'll take sneak attack over CdG any day. Why, because of this ... "A helpless character takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks, but no penalty to AC against ranged attacks. A helpless defender can’t use any Dexterity bonus to AC. In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to AC as if it were –5 (and a rogue can sneak attack him)."
Absolutely. The group I am DMing got caught flat-footed by an invisible creature, and that won the ensuing initiative. The lead fighter took a suprise round and then a full round of sneak attacks. The claw and bite damage was insignificant compared to the 20d6 sneak attack damage he took.
I'll take sneak attack over CdG any day. Why, because of this ... "A helpless character takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks, but no penalty to AC against ranged attacks. A helpless defender can’t use any Dexterity bonus to AC. In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to AC as if it were –5 (and a rogue can sneak attack him)."
Do note...that a target being flatfooted due to the surprise round and/or going later in the initiative order on round 1 does NOT make that target 'helpless' - just flatfooted. A helpless target is one that is held, bound or rendered immobile and unable to respond to an attack for some reason; surprise doesn't meet this condition.
M
Absolutely. The group I am DMing got caught flat-footed by an invisible creature, and that won the ensuing initiative. The lead fighter took a suprise round and then a full round of sneak attacks. The claw and bite damage was insignificant compared to the 20d6 sneak attack damage he took.
I'll take sneak attack over CdG any day. Why, because of this ... "A helpless character takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks, but no penalty to AC against ranged attacks. A helpless defender can’t use any Dexterity bonus to AC. In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to AC as if it were –5 (and a rogue can sneak attack him)."
Would that make the total AC penalty of a Held or otherwise helpless character -9?
Would that make the total AC penalty of a Held or otherwise helpless character -9?
Depends on the character's dex score. For the rogue with an 18 DC, his AC is sitting at a -13 penalty. The cleric who's not quite nimble enough to make proper use of his Half Plate armor (Dex 8), on the other hand, would only be at a -8.
Oh, yes, I see now. I always hate it when a rule throws multiple bonuses/penalties, then fails to say whether or not the various parts were included in the first modifier, or fail to list examples of how the whole thing works.