Creative Director
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1. The stat blocks supply full attacks. There's no real need for a seperate attack line since that information is contained in the full attack; simply take the very first attack from the full attack (which may be just the highest attack roll modifier for a creature that uses weapons) and presto; there's your single attack action.
2. Hit dice type and base hit points are meaningless to game play; they matter only if you're going in to rebuild the stat block and in that case, they're easy enough to figure out using math or Table 4—1 from the Monster Manual. The hit points listed are 99% of the time the average hit points for the monster in question. Assume that every monster listed has the same hit points, even if they're in a group. If this isn't realistic for you, feel free to adjust hit points up or down by 25% or so, but keep in mind that adjusting hit points can significantly alter the challenge presented by the encounter. A purple worm with minimum hit points (128) and one with maximum (272) are technically both CR 12 encounters, but we all know that the 128 hp worm has a glass jaw and won't last long enough to provide a good challenge. Keeping monsters at average hit points is the safest and most reliable way to design and present encounters.
For the overworm in issue #130, a glance at Table 4—1 tells you that magical beasts have d10 hit dice. Multiply its 20 Hit Dice by 5.5 (an average roll on 1d10) and you get 110 hit points. It has a Constitution of 24, which equates to a +7 bonus on all hit point rolls. Multiply 7 by 20 and you get 140. Add these two together and presto: 250 hp.
I have run in to two problems:
1. Attacks - The stat block no longer gives separate Attack and Full Attack details. Which one is being supplied now? Is there some way of calculating or inferring the other from what is given? Or am to assume that monsters no longer differentiate between partial and full attacks?
The Attack line now lists the full attack routine of a creature. The first attack in the line is the primary attack, and the rest are secondary. If you only want the creature to attack with the primary attack, no change is needed. With secondary attacks, remove the -5 penalty to hit, and damage should be modified by the full Strength modifier, rather than half. It can be more complicated than this in some cases, but this is the basics.
2. Hit Points - Why have hit dice type and base hit points gone away? Are we to assume that every monster for a given name has exactly the same hitpoints? OK if the monster is unique but what about groups of the same monster? Also, without the dice type and base value is is impossible to tell how some of the values are derived, eg the Overworm in Issue 130, shown as hp250 (20 HD). Assuming hit dice type of 12 and we get very lucky and roll 20 12s we get to 240hp, so where does the extra 10 come from?
Monsters and NPCs are generally given an average amount of hit points (d4=2.5, d6=3.5, d8=4.5, d10=5.5, d12=6.5), mostly to make calculating them easier. After all, the PCs are not really going to notice if one monster has 78 hit points and the other has 76 in most cases. You can always roll the hit points yourself if you want.
The Overworm is a Magical Beast, and therefore receives d10s for hit dice. It has a Constitution score of 24, which provides a +7 modifier to this. 5.5 + 7 = 12.5; 12.5 x 20 = 250 hit points. I hope this is clear enough.
Also, the quickest way to calculate the modifier for any ability score is as follows: Subtract 10 if even, 11 if odd, then divide the result in half. Not sure if you're having any problems like this, but this is an easy way to do things.
Darn, ninja'd by the editor...
"Meaningless in actual play," yes, but as _Dungeon_ is a toolkit for GMs to scavenge from as much as it is a handful of prepared adventures, it would be handy to have the type and modifiers there to simplify reverse-engineering. I rarely use an adventure straight off the page.
I also realize that the stat block was created by WotC, not Paizo, but if I had my druthers, the full hit die stats would be there. "HP 250 (20 hit dice)" is not significantly shorter than "HP 250 (HD 2d10+140)". :)
-The Gneech
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Creative Director
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"Meaningless in actual play," yes, but as _Dungeon_ is a toolkit for GMs to scavenge from as much as it is a handful of prepared adventures, it would be handy to have the type and modifiers there to simplify reverse-engineering. I rarely use an adventure straight off the page.
I also realize that the stat block was created by WotC, not Paizo, but if I had my druthers, the full hit die stats would be there. "HP 250 (20 hit dice)" is not significantly shorter than "HP 250 (HD 2d10+140)". :)
-The Gneech
hp 250 (HD 20d20+140) doesn't take up much more room, but it's enough for creatuers with fast healing and/or DR that it'll force a second line. Plus, it just looks uglier. One of the goals of the new stat block is to make it easier to read, and hp 250 (HD 20d20+140) is uglier than hp 250 (20 HD).
Reverse-engineering is a really tough trick; tougher even than building a stat block from the bottom up. If you can reverse-engineer a stat block, you probably know how to derive a creature's Hit Dice and bonuses. I understand that it makes it a little more difficult to do so without having the die types and modifiers there, but if we show the math for Hit Dice, where do we stop? Should we show math for grapple checks? Attack rolls? Skill modifiers?
Better, in my opinion, to keep all that ugly math hidden behind the curtain.
... if we show the math for Hit Dice, where do we stop? Should we show math for grapple checks? Attack rolls? Skill modifiers?
Better, in my opinion, to keep all that ugly math hidden behind the curtain.
Well, since you ask, my own _personal_ preference would be that it was all there right down to skill ranks plus stat mods. When making my own adventure notes, I list stats as STR 14/+2 DEX 18/+4 CON 13/+1 INT 9/-1 WIS 15/+2 CHA 10 so I don't have to stop in the middle of action of figure out the modifier for an opposed Strength check or whatever. Skills I list as Climbing +6 (+2 ranks, +2 Str, +2 Feat).
I realize that within the limited space of a magazine, this is a lot of real estate, however, which is why I don't go around waving "Explicit Stat Blocks For Everyone!" placards. ;)
What makes hit dice worth mentioning specifically is that a character's hit points are simply a big fat SUM that's derived from what can be an esoteric (or at least highly variable) formula. Yes, if I stop to do the math, I can figure it out, but "hp 250 (HD 20d20+140)" conveys more information than "hp 250 (20 HD)" in almost the same space.
it's enough for creatures with fast healing and/or DR that it'll force a second line
That's certainly a consideration. :) Without having my mags on hand to look for examples, I would expect fast healing to force a second line in any case.
-The Gneech
Honestly, if you need to breakdown what the Hit Die is because you're tinkering with it for your own game or you want to do some modifications, you're probably going to be popping your books open anyway. It's not difficult to open your Monster Manual and check out the table James has referred to along with any other juicy info back there you're going to need to research for your tinkering.
Edit: My last post sounded a little condescending. Sorry. Not my intention.
I guess what I mean to say is, it's a small thing for DMs with the magazine to simply look this stuff up as opposed to the huge amount of crunching it takes for the magazine staff to get all of the stuff we love into our favorite magazine without jipping us on the goods.
For my part and many other long-time DMs, we can look at a monster type and say, "Hmmm. That's an animal, so the HD is d8's." That's something we kind of take for granted after hitting the books for so long.
Lesser experienced DMs are still looking for that "cheat sheet" style stat block. Since it's not there, hitting the books becomes necessary for you, and really it's going to benifit you a lot by doing so.
The new stat blocks promote more research on the part of the DM. My opinion is that it's a good thing. Others will say that they buy the mag specificially because they don't have the time to do this or they would just be writing their own material. I can't fault that opinion, but hopefully the necessity to look up these little tidbits like Hit Dice type for different creatures will help your overall knowledge of the game and make you a better DM.
For my part and many other long-time DMs, we can look at a monster type and say, "Hmmm. That's an animal, so the HD is d8's." That's something we kind of take for granted after hitting the books for so long.
Lesser experienced DMs are still looking for that "cheat sheet" style stat block. Since it's not there, hitting the books becomes necessary for you, and really it's going to benifit you a lot by doing so.
I agree. Having the complete hit dice plus modifiers listed might make it a half second faster for me to figure things out, since then I don't have to glance at the Con score. In the years I've worked with 3rd edition, I've gleaned several little tricks to crunch numbers faster.
Certainly, the formatting of hit dice in the stat block is a minor and esoteric quibble anyhow. :) FWIW, the contemporary stat block is probably the most useful one to come down the line in the 20+ years I've been playing the game in any case ... I was merely stating my own preferences in the same vein of "and I also want a pony." :)
'tis feedback, no more no less. :)
-TG
My biggest problem with the new stat blocks is having to switch back to using the older stat blocks when I'm doing non-paizo stuff. At the same time I was writing "Dead Relatives" I was writing an adventure for Goodman Games, which was a minor headache. I'm just wandering whether WotC will ever make the new stat blocks available to the OGL companies.
My only real issue with the new stat block is that it's not always easy to see where various modifiers come from, such that when the creature is subjected to an antimagic field, or an attack that ignores the armour bonus, or equivalent, it's not always clear what the result should be. Of course, the old stat block wasn't always clear on that either...
All in all, I think the new block is an improvement, but it's not perfect just yet.
I'm just wandering whether WotC will ever make the new stat blocks available to the OGL companies.
Do they need to? I was under the impression that a stat block was just a way of presenting information, and that the license only covered the information itself, rather than presentation. Of course, I might be wrong.
One of the goals of the new stat block is to make it easier to read...
Except, of course, that we've had five years to get used to the old stat block, and the new one doesn't place information just where we expect it.
It's like learning to drive with the gear stick on the left side, then finding a car where it is on the right, then going back left-handed, and so on.
Most DM's will have a significant amount of old stat-block material already, switching from one version to the other will cause confusion.
And the SRD still uses the old stat block for MM entries. DM's making use this resource will still have to cope with the less-efficient version.
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One of the goals of the new stat block is to make it easier to read...Except, of course, that we've had five years to get used to the old stat block, and the new one doesn't place information just where we expect it.
It's like learning to drive with the gear stick on the left side, then finding a car where it is on the right, then going back left-handed, and so on.
Most DM's will have a significant amount of old stat-block material already, switching from one version to the other will cause confusion.
Well, this depends. For me the new stat-block was more like:"Finally the gear-stick is on the correct side!"
Not having the exact HD hasn't been an issue during game so far, and all I need is the amount of HD when it comes to turning undead. Never needed it for any other reason. If you need the correct values, which you don't during game (James's correct here!) you can always look it up. I rather have only to look up such a thing than a whole lot of info about a monster.And yes, I, too, have a lot of old stat-blocks, but in case I need one of them again, I have no problem in using it the old way or just rewrite it. Granted, that takes time, but you don't have to redo all you old ones at once.
And the SRD still uses the old stat block for MM entries. DM's making use this resource will still have to cope with the less-efficient version.
Here you say it! The new stat-block is more efficient, so we should be happy to have it...
Not having the exact HD hasn't been an issue during game so far, and all I need is the amount of HD when it comes to turning undead. Never needed it for any other reason.
Some spell effects (such as sleep) are dependent upon hit dice as well.
I'm just wandering whether WotC will ever make the new stat blocks available to the OGL companies.Do they need to? I was under the impression that a stat block was just a way of presenting information, and that the license only covered the information itself, rather than presentation. Of course, I might be wrong.
That should be true, but I've heard that WotC says it's not possible for other companies to use it. That makes no sense to me, but it's what I heard.
That should be true, but I've heard that WotC says it's not possible for other companies to use it. That makes no sense to me, but it's what I heard.I'm just wandering whether WotC will ever make the new stat blocks available to the OGL companies.Do they need to? I was under the impression that a stat block was just a way of presenting information, and that the license only covered the information itself, rather than presentation. Of course, I might be wrong.
That's really interesting... Can you recall where you heard it?
That's really interesting... Can you recall where you heard it?That should be true, but I've heard that WotC says it's not possible for other companies to use it. That makes no sense to me, but it's what I heard.I'm just wandering whether WotC will ever make the new stat blocks available to the OGL companies.Do they need to? I was under the impression that a stat block was just a way of presenting information, and that the license only covered the information itself, rather than presentation. Of course, I might be wrong.
It came up during a project for a d20 company. They said that a WotC rep posted on EN World that the stat block isn't usable by other companies.
Some companies use it anyway; they may not realize WotC doesn't want them to, or maybe they don't like WotC can legally prevent them from doing so.
It came up during a project for a d20 company. They said that a WotC rep posted on EN World that the stat block isn't usable by other companies.
I'd be interested in seeing if anyone could verify this, to see if it's an official company stance or not. Some the Dungeon staff on this board had suggested that the format was open for anyone to use.
I'd be interested, too. I might have some revision work I need to do now...