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Hello all,
I am in need of advice. I am making up a homebrew setting and would like to severely reduce the amount of horses in the setting and replace them with different large vermin as mounts. Should I just increase their intellect to horse intelligence due to their size? How can I explain this in a way to make it feasible to a setting. I am envisioning giant bees, wasps, dragonflies, for mounted flight, large beetles of various species as riding animals and beasts of burden, etc.
I want to be able to train them and have them be fairly reliable, like horses, dogs, and oxen. People may even have small sized varieties as house pets. Animal companion and familiar lists will be modified to include the vermin also.
Do I just up their intelligence and downgrade some abilities so that they are not too powerful? How do I explain the animal intellect in them? Any cool ideas on further integration of vermin into the world?
Any help is welcome.
thanks
FH
I would say, just up their intellect! I've never understood why vermin are so vastly mentally inferior to animals in D+D. There are insects and other nonvertebrae that are much more inquisitive than certain 'animals' as MM would classify them. (meanwhile, why is there a different creature type for certain invertebrae? they're animals too.)
TS
*goes into storyteller mode*
Long ago, when the world was young and the earth was new and the stars were fresh in the sky, the Deities of the land looked upon their creation and smiled. On the thirty-third day of the world They did decree that they would hold a celebration and give gifts to one another and take pride in Their Creation.
The Animal Lord was pleased at this - his creations were full of grace and loveliness, capturing the finest motions and movement that had not yet seen their equal. Flawless coats and shining eyes, it is said that he took the freshest sea foam and brightest stars to create his creatures, his horses.
When the Animal Lord brought his horses as gifts to his fellow Gods, the Dusk Knight was not pleased. He Who Blots Out the Sun was jealous of the Animal Lord's gifts, the horses who made his own gifts pale in comparison. The Dusk Knight waited for the right moment and worked his own terrible powers upon the Animal Lord's horses. Their flawless coats became hard shells, their shining eyes became multiple and faceted, graceful, powerful legs became sharp, jointed, ugly limbs.
Lutia, She Who Is Fleet of Foot, saw the Dusk Knight's powers work upon the horses and swiftly moved them out of the way before they all succumbed to the Dusk Knight's jealousy. The Animal Lord cried out in horror - his beautiful, majestic creatures were now grotesque and ugly. The Animal Lord could do nothing to stop the Dusk Knight - the Knight was consumed by this madness. The Knight's gifts, mounds of gems that He had carved with his own hands out of His rocky kingdom, grew legs and swarmed towards the shocked Deities. His gems grew large and gained lives of their own, some with pincers, some with deadly stingers, some with ferocious jaws. Cackling with madness, the Dusk Knight disappeared under his swarm and departed the celebrations.
The Animal Lord would have his say though - he would not let the effort he put into his horses be wasted. Laying a calming hand upon the Dusk Knight's creations, he imbued them with an intelligence and a willingness to be handled.
*end storyteller mode*
Or a good mass awaken - that would work too.
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*goes into storyteller mode*
Long ago, when the world was young and the earth was new and the stars were fresh in the sky, the Deities of the land looked upon their creation and smiled. On the thirty-third day of the world They did decree that they would hold a celebration and give gifts to one another and take pride in Their Creation.The Animal Lord was pleased at this - his creations were full of grace and loveliness, capturing the finest motions and movement that had not yet seen their equal. Flawless coats and shining eyes, it is said that he took the freshest sea foam and brightest stars to create his creatures, his horses.
When the Animal Lord brought his horses as gifts to his fellow Gods, the Dusk Knight was not pleased. He Who Blots Out the Sun was jealous of the Animal Lord's gifts, the horses who made his own gifts pale in comparison. The Dusk Knight waited for the right moment and worked his own terrible powers upon the Animal Lord's horses. Their flawless coats became hard shells, their shining eyes became multiple and faceted, graceful, powerful legs became sharp, jointed, ugly limbs.
Lutia, She Who Is Fleet of Foot, saw the Dusk Knight's powers work upon the horses and swiftly moved them out of the way before they all succumbed to the Dusk Knight's jealousy. The Animal Lord cried out in horror - his beautiful, majestic creatures were now grotesque and ugly. The Animal Lord could do nothing to stop the Dusk Knight - the Knight was consumed by this madness. The Knight's gifts, mounds of gems that He had carved with his own hands out of His rocky kingdom, grew legs and swarmed towards the shocked Deities. His gems grew large and gained lives of their own, some with pincers, some with deadly stingers, some with ferocious jaws. Cackling with madness, the Dusk Knight disappeared under his swarm and departed the celebrations.
The Animal Lord would have his say though - he would not let the effort he put into his horses be wasted. Laying a calming hand upon the Dusk Knight's creations, he...
Holy crap! That is PERFECT! Exactly the type of thing I was looking for! I will be incorporating this "creation legend" into my campaign. You have also inspired me to write up some more different legends to flesh out the pantheon and world. I will be picking your brain further in the near future for more Myths and Legends. Thanks again, Lilith
Any more ideas on what types of roles the creatures could take? How can I more fully integrate them into the world like they have been around all along?
FH
Upping the intelligence from 1 to 2 won't really upset the balance of your game. Perhaps the giant vermin are a naturally occurring species that have long been domesticated. Alternatively, perhaps they were more recently created by mages who noticed ants carrying heavy objects and imagined armies of them carrying people and goods.
They might originate from a warlike people, who originally made them to accompany armies and later to carry soldiers (the invention of cavalry), or they might originate from a more enlightened people who consider it a little unethical to force animals to work, but not vermin.
Holy crap! That is PERFECT! Exactly the type of thing I was looking for! I will be incorporating this "creation legend" into my campaign. You have also inspired me to write up some more different legends to flesh out the pantheon and world. I will be picking your brain further in the near future for more Myths and Legends. Thanks again, Lilith
Any more ideas on what types of roles the creatures could take? How can I more fully integrate them into the world like they have been around all along?
FH
You're welcome. I love creating myths - see this thread for another example. (Mind you, in the version I did above, I did not mention what happened in the 32 days prior. Numerics usually have a significance in many mythos - maybe there are 33 days in a month? 33 holy days in a year? 33 comets in the sky? Or something like that....Also leaves you room to work in the "weird stuff", like the Far Realms, the Plane of Mirrors, the Dream Plane.)
If you're going off of the "beasts of burden" analogy, you could easily look at how particular horses have been bred for specific tasks. A giant ant could have been bred for farming and heavy labor tasks, especially considering their propensity for lifting weights many times greater than their mass. Scorpions and centipedes could be war mounts - or to be really exotic, praying mantises (mantii??). Spiders could be anything from speedy couriers to...well...just about anything, really, they're quite varied in the real world. Beetles can be heavy draft animals or caravan-pullers. (The bombardier and fire are most definitively siege animals, IMHO, especially if you increase their size a bit. Think of the "fire beetle" from Starship Troopers.) Bees and wasps would be the best in aerial scouting and message delivery - they are quite astonishing in how far they can fly in a day. For house pets, beetles might be the more likely, especially dung/scarab beetles (weird, I know, but they would clean up your garbage for you). A beetle's variety of shell colors would probably be an attractive feature. Or butterflies and moths. Moths you'd want for a night mission, all stealthy-like. ;-P Butterflies would probably be used in farming, bees as well (think of the amount of honey and mead you could make). Roaches might be good for "battlefield cleanup." The mere though of giant roaches makes me want to hurl, I can't even stand the regular ones, but hey...
Something you may want to keep in mind is the hive mind aspect of ants, bees and wasps. You could even have a Profession or four based on this kind of animal handling. Given the propensity for said vermin to breed in huge numbers, I imagine said vermin handlers would have come up with some way to limit breeding (especially with the roaches...blech).
And once in a while, if the Dusk Knight wants to wreak more havoc, he can send his Swarm to poison the gentle Animal Lord's creatures and create devastation vermin...:-D
*obligatory evil laughter*
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My mind went to Clockwork Horrors when you mentioned the Dusk Lord throwing down gems and they became beetles to conceal his exit from the meeting of the Gods. I think I will incorporate them into this world by making them summonable by Dusk Lord clerics and arcanist's who worship the Dusk Lord.
I went to Athas.org and am looking into the Kank situation to try to develope an antlike species without the hive mindset. Probably have to nix the Bee idea as mounts and just use them as a giant bee-type honey/wax farm due to the hive mentality. Buzz on the Bridge is an adventure from Dungeon mag that comes to mind as an instant fit in this setting.
Don't stop now people, these idea are golden for me and I really appreciate them all. Keep em commin'!
On a side note, I love these boards! They make me a better player and a better DM. The wealth of knowledge and ideas is beyond worth, even if I don't use or agree with everything, it all makes me think in a different manner than I am used to.
FH
Once again, creation seems to trump science...
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I would adjust the breeding cycle of the giant vermin to make it more mammalesque. If the giant version of the vermin reproduced at the same rate as their small counterparts, I would worry about armies of giant ants setting up new anthills in civilized lands and quickly overrunning the countryside.
Tam
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I would adjust the breeding cycle of the giant vermin to make it more mammalesque. If the giant version of the vermin reproduced at the same rate as their small counterparts, I would worry about armies of giant ants setting up new anthills in civilized lands and quickly overrunning the countryside.
Tam
I agree, maybe as a side-effect of the Gods intervention to give them an intelligence.
I would adjust the breeding cycle of the giant vermin to make it more mammalesque. If the giant version of the vermin reproduced at the same rate as their small counterparts, I would worry about armies of giant ants setting up new anthills in civilized lands and quickly overrunning the countryside.
Tam
I agree, maybe as a side-effect of the Gods intervention to give them an intelligence.
That vaguely reminds me of a race from the works of Raymond E. Feist. Though I can't remember their name, the basic theme was intelligent ants/praying mantises who hired themselves out to fight in human wars. They also were the only source of silk in that setting, and were therefore a powerful force. However, due to a pact they had been forced to make years ago, they could not breed their mages, and could not invade men's lands. They had to follow the pact because once these people made an agreement, they could not back out. The result would be total and complete mental breakdown of the hive.(This was I presume, a part of Ant's inability to work without a queen. Imagine if an uber-lawful npc was forced to break not only the law, but his own code.) Also, they didn't care for the wealth they obtained, because they had no need for it. Money was useful for obtaining food, but there was little point to it beyond that.
Once again, creation seems to trump science...Huh?
I'm joking, since you seemed to like Lilith's creation myth more than my more scientific origin theory :)
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I'm joking, since you seemed to like Lilith's creation myth more than my more scientific origin theory :)Once again, creation seems to trump science...Huh?
No, I really appreciate the idea, but I just can't picture someone training a large scorpion much of anything without its intellect increasing first otherwise every trainer is just food, or the critters are now conditioned to run away from the squishy things that hurt them. A horse will kick you and may kill you but an ant would rip you to pieces and not learn anything if you whipped it or "broke" it. Of course, just because they are embued with intelligence, doesn't mean they don't need to be trained by certain daring tribesmen. (I picture early american indians catching and training large ants so they can ride them in a hunt for giant potatoe bugs). So I will be using most suggestions in some manner or another.
Don't feel left out! All suggestions are needed and wanted (and probably used!).FH
Selective breeding would come into play at one point, as has been done with our own domesticated animals. Particular traits might be desired, such as aggressiveness, intelligence, easygoing, etc, which could be bred into the next generation.
I like good creation myths, but I always like to have a logical explanation to back it up. (Falling on the "it's magic" argument too many times isn't very cool, and has bitten me in the arse a few times.)
That vaguely reminds me of a race from the works of Raymond E. Feist. Though I can't remember their name, the basic theme was intelligent ants/praying mantises who hired themselves out to fight in human wars. They also were the only source of silk in that setting, and were therefore a powerful force. However, due to a pact they had been forced to make years ago, they could not breed their mages, and could not invade men's lands. They had to follow the pact because once these people made an agreement, they could not back out. The result would be total and complete mental breakdown of the hive.(This was I presume, a part of Ant's inability to work without a queen. Imagine if an uber-lawful npc was forced to break not only the law, but his own code.) Also, they didn't care for the wealth they obtained, because they had no need for it. Money was useful for obtaining food, but there was little point to it beyond that.
Exactly! You beat me to it. There were also a couple of other neat creatures like the Thun (sp?) that were lizard-like centaurs and a 'cow' with 6 legs. By far the coolest insects were the giant ant-like creatures.
igi
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I was thinking--how about a race of antlike beings with a hive mind and a queen of some mean intellect, that could serve as cavalry. The queen could coordinate their movements on the battlefield to create the ultimate cohesive cavalry force. Each anthorse alone is not too bright, but as a unit they are capable of all manner of formation and swift tactical alteration.