Maybe I'm just dense, but how long does the "command undead" feature last when a rebuking cleric manages to "command" them instead of rebuking them? 10 rds like the rebuke? Or 1 day/lvl as the spell command undead? I couldn't find anything clear on that.
Another question--a good friend of mine just started DMing a 3.5 game and he's never run 3.5 before. My cleric of Cyric managed to "command" 9 skeletons (he was 2nd level) and he used them in the following battle against some orcs.
This DM then penalized us XP by considering each skeleton a "party member" and dividing the XP among 4 PC's and 9 skeletons. I told him that I didn't think that was correct, because you don't penalize PC's XP for summoning monsters with spells to fight in battles or for having their warhorses fight when in mounted battles.
He relented, but once again I couldn't find anything clear on that in the DMG (did I miss something?) The section on XP doesn't mention splitting XP with cohorts, hirelings or followers, and neither does the section on NPC's. It talks about how many XP a cohort gets, but doesn't mention taking away XP from a PC because they used cohorts, hirelings or followers.
Thanks in advance for your advice.
For some reason this post disappeared...and then reappeared only after I had already posted it again.
Sorry...Paizo, could you take this thread down to avoid duplication?
Thanks!
Maybe I'm just dense, but how long does the "command undead" feature last when a rebuking cleric manages to "command" them instead of rebuking them? 10 rds like the rebuke? Or 1 day/lvl as the spell command undead? I couldn't find anything clear on that.
Another question--a good friend of mine just started DMing a 3.5 game and he's never run 3.5 before. My cleric of Cyric managed to "command" 9 skeletons (he was 2nd level) and he used them in the following battle against some orcs.
This DM then penalized us XP by considering each skeleton a "party member" and dividing the XP among 4 PC's and 9 skeletons. I told him that I didn't think that was correct, because you don't penalize PC's XP for summoning monsters with spells to fight in battles or for having their warhorses fight when in mounted battles.
He relented, but once again I couldn't find anything clear on that in the DMG (did I miss something?) The section on XP doesn't mention splitting XP with cohorts, hirelings or followers, and neither does the section on NPC's. It talks about how many XP a cohort gets, but doesn't mention taking away XP from a PC because they used cohorts, hirelings or followers.
Thanks in advance for your advice.
Uhm, I'n not sure you would have been able to command that many skeletons. Of course you could have had a fantastic roll to rebuke, but even then on page 159 it says that you can control "any number of undead whose total hit dice do not exceed his level".
It doesn't state a duration, since a good cleric's result is the undead's total destruction. However, you'd have to constantly spend standard actions giving them commands. When things get too tedious you can always voluntarily give up commanding any undead you do control.
As for the XP division, under XP for cohorts it explicitly says not to count the cohort in the number of PCs (page 104 of the DMG, first numbered paragraph after heading Experience Points in Cohort section).
On page 37 of the DMG after the ennumerated XP calculation for an encounter, it explicitly says to not add in any monsters summoned or otherwise added to the encounter through magical means by the bad guy. This is because this ability is already added into it's CR. So the same would hold true for a PC. Your Rebuke / Command Undead is an evil cleric's ability.
Thanks...my cleric has an 18 Charisma and he rolls 2d6+4+2 for the # of undead he can "turn" and the rules on turning state that if he has twice as many HD as the undead, they are commanded instead (or destroyed for good clerics).
Thanks for the input.
Erf... sorry if I sounded incredibly rules lawyer-ish (on page x, section 1, subsection c, paragraph z-). I just looked it up and thought the page numbers would help if you had to reference them in a game or something.
Have you looked into the variant Turning rules in Complete Divine? I allow the cleric to use them in my campaign only because they are much faster and easier to resolve. It's a simple 1d6 of damage per cleric level for all undead within 30 feet with a Will save (DC 10 + Cleric level + Charisma modifier) for half damage. I add turn resistance to the saving throw.
Erf... sorry if I sounded incredibly rules lawyer-ish (on page x, section 1, subsection c, paragraph z-). I just looked it up and thought the page numbers would help if you had to reference them in a game or something.
Oh, no...I appreciate the section references...that's what I was looking for!!! Thanks!!
Have you looked into the variant Turning rules in Complete Divine? I allow the cleric to use them in my campaign only because they are much faster and easier to resolve. It's a simple 1d6 of damage per cleric level for all undead within 30 feet with a Will save (DC 10 + Cleric level + Charisma modifier) for half damage. I add turn resistance to the saving throw.
The Complete Divine is already on my Christmas wish list. Thanks for the heads up.
He relented, but once again I couldn't find anything clear on that in the DMG (did I miss something?) The section on XP doesn't mention splitting XP with cohorts, hirelings or followers, and neither does the section on NPC's. It talks about how many XP a cohort gets, but doesn't mention taking away XP from a PC because they used cohorts, hirelings or followers.Thanks in advance for your advice.
This has already been adequitly answered but I think your basic reasoning is correct - you have the skeletons because of an ability of your Cleric therefore you don't divide the experience with them anymore then the fighter divides his experience with that big ass sword he's lugging around - having a big ass sword is part of being a fighter - being able to command undead is part of being a non-good cleric.
Now if you meet a vampire and you and it form an allience and it starts to work with you to achieve some goal of its own then I would say that you have to divide your experience with the vampire - you did not summon it and its not hanging out with you due to your characters abilities hence its entitled to a share of XP.
So,...What are people using for the durration? Also, if it is the 10 rounds, do they become hostile once that time has passed?
ASEO out
I think that if you are strong enough to command it, you are in control for as long as you want. There is a limit to how many and how strong of a thing that you control (your Hit Dice), and it's a pain to maintain in that you have to constantly give the darn things commands (taking a standard action to do so). The only indication as to ending your command over an undead is if you voluntarily do so, and that is if you're trading up for a more powerful undead beastie. As for what the newly independant undead would do... I'd think it would most likely be cowed due to your power, so no real hostility. Although if you are talking about an intelligent undead, there might be problems, but that'd be based on the individual.
I think that if you are strong enough to command it, you are in control for as long as you want. There is a limit to how many and how strong of a thing that you control (your Hit Dice), and it's a pain to maintain in that you have to constantly give the darn things commands (taking a standard action to do so). The only indication as to ending your command over an undead is if you voluntarily do so, and that is if you're trading up for a more powerful undead beastie. As for what the newly independant undead would do... I'd think it would most likely be cowed due to your power, so no real hostility. Although if you are talking about an intelligent undead, there might be problems, but that'd be based on the individual.
Sorry Sharpe, I dissagree. I would rule (in my game, of course) that the player has control over the undead for the normal 'turn undead' period (10 rounds). After wich, they would go back to doing whatever they were created to do, as when a 'turn undead' expires... Like attack the players if they are still in the area. Remember, this isn't a spell with a permanent duration.
But if you rule otherwise in your game, that's totally fine with me. After all, the DM always has the final say.
Ultradan
On the concept of commanding intelligent undead...
10 rounds + clerics Cha mod - undead's int mod
Example:
Cleric has +4 Cha Mod, Lich has Int mod of +5. Cleric could control Lich for 9 rounds if the Lich fails its save...and then the Cleric should probably prep for a serious whupping.
Oh hey, no prob with the disagreement. The rules are a little funky and obscure as to how long. And truth to tell I have yet to come across this as I haven't participated nor DM'd an evil campaign in 3.5, I was just voicing an opinion based on what I was reading in PHB.
On the subject of duration, I have to throw in my two cents on the side of permanent, and the reason has already been stated above. A good cleric's turning check destroys any undead whose hit dice are half the cleric's level or less. A pretty permanent solution. Only giving a non-good cleric a few rounds of control for undead half his turning level or less isn't quite balanced. I can see the argument here: destroying an opponent outright is not as powerful as removing that same opponent and then gaining complete control over it. To that, I just have to point out the discrepancy (which will only increase as the cleric gains levels) in power between a cleric and any undead whose effective HD are half the cleric's level or lower. At best, creatures this much weaker than the cleric (and presumably most of the other creatures he/she/it will face in the foreseeable future) will serve as cannon fodder, quickly disposed of and really only absorbing a small amount of punishment intended for the PCs. Coupled with the hassle of having to spend a standard action to command these disposable minions, this doesn't stack up to anything overpowering. Not to mention that, at any time, these minions could be stripped away by a more powerful cleric, possibly becoming foes once again at a highly inopportune moment (fun idea for the Evil DM in me). So... maybe that was more like $1.50 than two cents, but there ya have it.
I agree that commanding is permanent, since destroying certainly is. As for intelligent undead, I would adjucate their actions as any other NPC. They may attack the cleric who commanded them, but they're just as likely to rush off and leave him alone (after all, he was powerful enough to command them!) Depending on his goals, they may even continue to serve him (although with their own goals and agendas and actions and XP; this would be rare as well).
I'm currently playing a sorcerer/cleric of Wee Jas/mystic theurge, who rebukes rather than turning. As pointed out, the controled undead are very weak. I mainly just give them the one time command to form a defensive ring around me and protect me as best they can. Out of combat, a standard action is rarely a big deal, so I can change this when in a town or some other area that lugging around an undead guard unit wouldn't be smart, and then resume the pattern when adventuring. They don't really do much except give me an extra round or two to prepare for/escape from incomming foes, and I don't have to constantly spend standard actions.
Creative Director
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When a cleric who rebukes undead rolls well enough to command the undead, they remain under that cleric's control forever, regardless of the undead's intelligence score. The only limit is the cleric's level; he can only command a number of HD of undead equal to his cleric level at any one time.
When a cleric who rebukes undead rolls well enough to command the undead, they remain under that cleric's control forever, regardless of the undead's intelligence score. The only limit is the cleric's level; he can only command a number of HD of undead equal to his cleric level at any one time.
Thanks James. So, basically my cleric is penalized? If he's good, he destroys the same number of undead as he would normally turn, as per PH159 2d6+ CHA bonus + level), but if he's a rebuker, he only gets to command two of them? (My PC is 2nd level)--the other ones aren't affected at all?
That doesn't seem fair. Are the ones not "commanded" considered at least rebuked? The PH doesn't say that, but it seems like that would only be fair.
My take on this would be that any HD worth of undead beyond those that become commanded by the rebuking check but still within the amount of HD rolled on the 2d6 turn/rebuke damage would be cowering. I don't think it specifically says so, but with a turning check it's safe to assume the same thing: any undead not destroyed by the check but still low enough HD to be affected by turning will be considered turned. You're right, it's only fair, and it makes sense.
I still think that the undead that are not commanded should be rendered permanently non-hostile and not subject to having to be re-rebuked 10 rds later, since "turning" clerics get to "destroy" the undead they turn, which is pretty much rendering them permanently non-hostile.
"I don't want you to be rendered permanently non-hostile for your country, I want you to make the other guy permanently non-hostile for their country." (General Patton, reinterpreted politically correct)