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...David Bowie as Jareth from the movie Labyrinth singing, “Dance Magic Dance.” (On a side note just to mention it now that song is stuck in my head now.)
Funny, you mention Labyrinth and Jennifer Connelly's breasts get stuck in my head...
All in all, I do agree with some of the spirit of what you're saying JD. As a player, I want to have a couple of cool surprises thrown at me through the course of an adventure, but I don't want every encounter to be some screw-ball concoction of templates just for the sake of using them. Now if they are well thought out and part of a well constructed plot, that's fine, but to use them just to use 'em...nah. As a DM, I am very specific in what I template 1) for the very reason I just mentioned, and 2) I sure as hell don't want to spend more time writting up stat blocks than composing the adventure.
The story is the bottome line, though. If it is tight, has a good explanation, and really gives my character/my players characters something to get wrapped up in, then by all means use it.
So how do you explain an Half-elemental centaur mummy?
So how do you explain an Half-elemental centaur mummy?
I'll take a shot. . .
Basini - He was once a great warrior for the Uduki tribe, a shaggy haired variant that lives in teh mountains and worshipped the sky and the wind.
He fell in battle defending The Mother Ses'lir, a collection of tunnels that produce an effect similar to Buddist Monk chanting. Children are placed there to receive the blessings of the Great Mother's vibrations, and it's loss would be greatly felt.
Once in a while, as in Basini's case, they are blessed with the spirit of the mother, becoming half-elemental in the process. They are called the CHild of the Mother, and are considered the paragons and prtoectors of the tribe.
Before he died, Basini swore that he would defend The Mother Ses'lir at all costs. He was interred in it's depths byt he tribe he defended with his death.
Centuries later, the tribe is wiped out by wicked Storm elemental. Basini, true to his word, rises from his grave, still wrapped in his ceremonial garb. As the first winds begin to rock the Mother Ses'lir, the deep voice of the mother expells the warrior true, as the two opposing forces, proud Centaur of the Winds, and the randomd destruciton of the Storm, dance in battle as horrid lighting fills the sky.
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Wow, nice one, Chris! And it’s kinda similar to one I thought of about three minutes after I left my terminal… The elements I tossed out there would be completely proper for a kind of Inca/Peruvian type setting, as well…
The highest mountain within a mighty range is actually topped by an immense plateau. A few clans of centaurs hold dominion over this high altitude grassland tending herds adapted to the marginal living. The farthest end of the plateau holds the entrance to the Secret Stair…an invisible staircase that leads to the cloud enshrouded spirit home of the centaurs gods and the path taken by all the souls of “the people” when they die.
The greatest champion of the strongest clan, Hrenmer of the Windhooves, was chosen by the ancestors to guard the Stair and prevent any mortal from entering the realm of the afterlife. They imbued in him a trace of their power, making him even more a creature of the air realms.
He served with pride and distinction until his the day a wily frost giantess skald found her way to the plateau on a dark quest (to steal a breath of the heavens, one ingredient for an evil magic weapon). Using subtle magics, she assumed the form of a female centaur and lulled the guardian Hrenmer to sleep with her melodic harp, the quietly slit his mighty throat. Unchallenged, she snuck up the stair, retrieved her prize, and escaped. The clans fell into immediate dishevel as the spirits of the ancestors turned their backs on the people for their failure. They withdrew further down the mountain.
The cold, thin air of the plateau blew over the form of the dead centaur, blood and water being rapidly evaporated by the constant, dry wind. The meat on the centaurs bones dehydrated, but could not rot off. The soul, noble in life, but twisted by failure and death, could not move on. Eventually, the dry, shriveled, raisin-like eyes slid open with a crackle, and the equine form stood up to guard the Secret Stair again. Where he performed his tasks with a joyous pride before, his guard now is a jealous rage to keep any others out of the heaven that he cannot know himself. He stalks any form of life on the plateau and extinguishes it with ruthless fervor.
Centuries later, the players have recovered the evil weapon and learned the secret of undoing it (a major part being returning the breath of the heavens) and must make their way up the mountain and across the high, dry plains to the Secret Stair, fending off attacks by the much more bestial centaur descendents of the clans. Once they get to the plain, they will have deal with a foe who attacks like the wind, unseen, vicious, constant… and who hates all life.
Cool Gav. . . we should definitely hang at a few Texas Cons once I move there in a couple of weeks.
We've come up with Good and Evil version of the Half-Air Elemental Centaur Mummy. With a little thought, I bet we could easily do one for Fire, Water, and Earth.
See, aren't templates fun?
One template I like to use on a [u]very[/u] limited basis (like no more than once or twice in a campaign) is the multi-headed template from Savage Species. :) Last time I used it was on a dire boar. It actually scared my players - especially after it charged the dwarven ranger and knocked him down to under half his hit points. :D
Do you two, Gav and Were, realize exactly how truly warped each of you are. *Laughs* If your going to make someone go down those lines then you might as well make them totem animals for a tribe that have been twisted. Half-Earth Elemental Dire Grizzly Bear Vampire, Half-Air Elemental Dire Giant Eagle Vampire, Half-Water Elemental Dire Anaconda Vampire, and Half-Fire Elemental Dire Tiger Vampire or some such nonsense. But at least in that particular...uuumm "module?" at least something like that would be a very much singular creautre/s.
And no.. I'm not figuring out the challenge ratings of those monsters so that anyone can use them... *sticks his tongue out*
*Sighs* No hope for the hopeless, eh? You know I'm not exactly sure if I want the editors to see exactly what I've been posting before. For some reason the idea that a Labyrinth style module is going to be coming out in the near future is stuck in my brain. Only the Hoggle would be a Duegar or some odd gnomish half-dwarf thing, Sir Didimus would be a halfing were-fox cavalier with this riding dog mount, and Bludo maybe an old fashioned Alaghi (not sure that's spelled right) remade to third ed.
But in all seriousness and back to the topic from the beginning. I'd just like to see a good module made a bit more of intrigue and mystery using just the straight up classes and monsters from the Players Handbook and Monsters Manual without having to go way overboard and pulling things from some obscure place or just off the top of the hat in general. Not only would it be a refreshing change but it might also inspire more to take up the mantle of GM because I hear on more than one occasion the words, "Well I'd GM but..." And I tell you what that's a world of things that could be added on to finish that sentense. Anywhere from "I'm not sure what monsters to use." to "I'm just not good at making things up on the fly." Going back to the basics for a bit might be a good thing once in a while just for those that are new to the game and happened to pick up the magazine because of the "way cool" picture on the front. Just my humble opinion.
When templates were first envisioned I'm sure that the designers at WotC didn't think that they would create such an explosion of templates (a similar thing has happened with feats). They actually tried to put templates into some sort of order with the Savage Species accessory. A lot of the templates mentioned in this thread would probably face some problem getting printed because they don't follow the rules for creating templates. For instance a pit fiend cannot become a celestial under the normal rules, nor could an undead creature become a half-golem. Of course, recently this rule has been thrown out to create more and more improbable combinations.
I for one only use templates when I can justify the existence of the template in my campaign. I always wonder what people are complaining about when they start talking about the good old days of D&D. From the sound of things they mean the safe, boring type of campaigns where the dragons are always dragons, the mind flayers are always mind flayers, and nothing is different or screws with peoples understanding of the way fantasy should be done. I for one love when the mind flayers are changed in wonderful and exciting ways and the dragons are different from the norm.
In my underworld campaign (the surface world had become a virtually uninhabitable wasteland) the mind flayers plied the vast underworld seas in gigantic hollowed out krakens (they were modified flesh golems)and their emperor was an elder brain that exposed itself to bizarre far world energies to become a vampire. Instead of being added to the elder brain upon death the mind flayers were transformed into mummies and served it as special guardians. In creating this aberrant mind flayer society I used several different templates, and transformed flesh golems into templated creatures. The templates helped me envision the world and make it interesting and original (at least as far as some of my friends were concerned).
Well I think there was an agreeance with me hidden somewhere in there when you admitted there was an explosion of templates that were being used and in some instances abused. And yes I was being WHOLLY sarcastic when I came up with the celestial demon. And to reiterate my point. I never once said that templates used to create and sustain a world or module were bad in and of themselves. Your undead Illithids are case in point. You've made them a predominant figure in your world, which is great and wonderful. But you didn't once mention for an instant that you threw in that one of the creatures was a were-squid or maybe half-fey on top of all the other templates, just to have your characters give your the puzzled look on their faces and make them say ,"What the...." (I leave this blank for those with the more creative lines to fill in.)
After starting this thread and finally pulling the cork on the champaign bottle that was my pent up frustration about the templates and absurdities that were going along with it and then reading all the replies to my thread, knowing full well in the back of my mind that all of them made prefect sense, I've finally come to this conclusion...
There are no right or wrong answers to this thread.
And I say this in the realization that "Creative Limits" are the things that a lone person puts into his/her own creations. And like any artwork that is displayed in muesems and galleries or even in fashion designs, you don't have to like what you see or wear what you see. The fact that its there can mean however much you want it to mean to you. So I'll take that half-golem and make him a werewolf or I'll take that half-fiend beholder and make it a full pit-fiend.
So create away you fiends of the magazines and like the djinni's of the deserts causing men to see illusions I'll choose to believe what I see how they come.
On a more side note. I'd like to keep this thread open to the individuals out there that are do have issues with certain creatures being in a module and in here we can either make reasonable suggestions as to what might fit into the places of said creatures to make it more open and fitting to a campaign you had in mind. Or to leave this thread open to the DM's out there that are stuck in making a connection point between to modules that you like and offer this as a place where suggestive post can be made. Again please be as civil in your responses as possible.
Thank you for the understanding you've given me in the past posts and I hope to hear more from you in the future.
Feel free to email me with questions or comments at
jdrastus@hotmail.com
Your friend in gaming. Jason Dooley
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After starting this thread and finally pulling the cork on the champaign bottle that was my pent up frustration about the templates and absurdities that were going along with it and then reading all the replies to my thread, knowing full well in the back of my mind that all of them made prefect sense, I've finally come to this conclusion...
There are no right or wrong answers to this thread.
And I say this in the realization that "Creative Limits" are the things that a lone person puts into his/her own creations.
Hey Jason! I think that this has been a very good thread and will definitely keep on checking on it! It's very nice to see a forum where the topics are being discussed without rancor.
For my part, I think you are 100% right in that there is no right/wrong answer to wether templates are good or bad...they are a game feature and can be used well or poorly. I tend to think that if they are used as part of a detailed story and well thought out, they are good, if they are a DM-side min/max, they are probably gonna suck.
I think that templates can be used very effectively to spice up an adventure/campaign, but, just like oregano and garlic...they don't make the meal. And you don't just toss a tablespoon of garlic in your peach cobbler just because you can.
Anyway, I hope to see more 'questionable templates' brought up... I want to hear our WerePlatypus explaining more bizarre combos.
Okay. So to those of you, both DM's and editors included, that deal a lot with the ins and outs of game mechanics and thus having to deal with all the rulings and questions that players have; Do you feel that the newer edition of 3.0 and 3.5 has sped up or slowed down the time that it would take to finish lets say 10 rounds of combat? It would seem to me that even though there is about the same amount of time "rolling the dice" between the two editions but there was a lot less downtime by looking things up in the books to make sure you did Feats right and so forth. I personally remember when a player tried to explain to the DM what they were trying to accomplish such as jumping over one guy to get the the next in which the said something to the like of make a Dex check at -4 (for example) and you can get to his other side as long as he doesn't hit you on the way by. Now with the 3.0 edition rules you have to have the feats Spring Attack plus Tumble so as to not inccur something like a -8 to the manuver check and then after you have those lined up you have to start your jump at exactly 5 feet away from the guy.... I'm sure you see where I'm going with this. It just seems to me there's a LOT more time involved in combat when you could press on to other things. Like I personally like the old D&D rule where if the creature was a half hit die creature or less that you could strike at as many as you had levels yourself.
Tell me what you think or if I'm totally off basis here.
Sometimes combat drags on and on, but lately I have really been challenging my group by given them encounter levels at +4/+5 above the recommended level.
12 rounds of combat took us 2-3 hours! that's just insane, but still I only noticed it when it was done, time sure flies when you are having fun.
But still combat takes up a huge chunk of game time
Cool post.
. . . they were trying to accomplish such as jumping over one guy to get the the next in which the said something to the like of make a Dex check at -4 (for example) and you can get to his other side as long as he doesn't hit you on the way by. Now with the 3.0 edition rules you have to have the feats Spring Attack plus Tumble so as to not inccur something like a -8 to the manuver check and then after you have those lined up you have to start your jump at exactly 5 feet away from the guy....
I think that the mechanic involved is one where the PC wants to move through a creature's space, to get to the other side (I may be wrong here). The Tubmle check covers everything quite nicely, whether the PC is going under the legs, dancing around the blades, leaping over the top, or climbing acrosss the back.
I would just go with the tumble check only, and then role-play the results as a cool, heroic leap ove the creature's head.
Like I personally like the old D&D rule where if the creature was a half hit die creature or less that you could strike at as many as you had levels yourself.
I think they kept some remenant of this. . . in two different feat trees: The power fighter tree is Cleave, and Great Cleave. . . and the quick fighter tree uses Whirlwind attack, or maybe Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.
Against, numerous little critters, these can speed up combat pretty well. . . if your PCs have the Feats.
Well back once again for another small redition of The Creative Limits. Only this time I'm here to actually give a round of applause to the writer of Vampires of Waterdeep. (Yes I know I'm a bit behind in my magazine readings. Sorry.) It seems to me that maybe a good bit we have talked about in the past has been taken to heart. Here is a good adventure of Werewolves vs. Vampires that the PC's get into the middle of and even with all the possibilities they could have thrown into the module for making the monsters so totally unique, to my pleasant surprise, they didn't. And you know what, the story is actually a fun read and in my mind totally playable. Now yes I'm going to probably get a comment of, well its just the same ole werewolf/vampire war that's been going on for ages. But there's a twist, now we're adding priests of Malar into it, but no its not what you think. Their actually on the Vampires side. Now how's that for a twist. The Beastlord with vampires and not his clawed, snarling, furred and furocious werewolves. Hmmmmm Could it be that Malar is looking to change his title to Lord of the Dead, or that maybe we can expect Zhent Werewolves of Bane or Cyric to join the fray in the next exciting adventure.
But don't worry you stalwart fans of this post. I'm still on the lookout for any more inane silliness in the magazines. Just as soon as I can get through them enough to make a comment here or there.
***This is actually a good read and I've got nothing bad to say to this article. even though my last sentence may make that seem false. I just had to throw it in there to let people out there know I hadn't forgotten them. *smiles*