I have always tried to avoid swarms, because I do not know how they work. I like this adventure, but can't find anyway around the swarm of beetles (plus, the description is too cool to skip out on anyway). I can't find in any of the three books. The magazine says to check the book for swarm rules, but like I said, I can't find it.
Is it because I still use the 3.0 Edition books and not the 3.5? And could somebody just let me know what the rules are, I'm getting a game set up for tomorrow. Thanks.
Check out the d20 3.5 online srd:
[url]http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm[/url]
Grolar, the SRD should answer all of your questions. On another thread relating to this same topic, I pointed out other types of improvised weapons that can be used to fight swarms. i.e. large objects that can affect an entire 5 ft. square (or even 10 ft. square if your PCs can actally manage to maneuver such large objects) like overturned bookshelves, large tables, etc. Complete Warrior lists some improvised weapons and the damage they deal at the very back.
As it relates to this adventure, two PCs may be able to lift the sarcophogus lid (though the trap on it may be untriggered still) and drop it onto the swarm dealing 1d6 points of damage to the swarm, maybe even adding the characters' Strength bonuses to damage if they make DC 15 Strength checks or something to drop it with a lot of force.
Anyway, those are my thoughts. I'm a big fan of PCs improvising their way through rough encounters and any time you deal with a swarm, it's always a little tough. Good luck.
Check out the d20 3.5 online srd:
[url]http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm[/url]
The details covered in this link is no different than what is written in the 3.5 monster manual. And based on this information, what makes swarms so difficult? A swarm acts like a single entity with the same AC, attack, yada yada... so it is no different than any other solitary creature.
The only difference that I see is that they take up your space. So my question (since it is not discussed), should it be treated like it is "grappling" the opponent? Because that would make matters difficult and it would make sense. Because then if someone were to attack the swarm, they would be attacking the person being swarmed too. Which again, makes sense, but it is not mentioned explicitly.
The only mention that I could find is that they say "swarms are extremely difficult to fight with physical attacks", but what does that mean in game sense? Does this equate to a +4 to AC when attacked by a slashing weapon or is that taken into account by the stated AC? But that doesn't make sense either because a bat swarm has an AC of 16 and how is that "extremely difficult" physically when compared to a boar that has an equivalent AC.
Can someone please elaborate? I delayed the encounter with the swarm by adding more wolves :) so that I could clear this up before they run into trouble.
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I ruled that slashing weapons do only half damage against a swarm and even if the PCs win, they only break up the swarm, not really kill it, unless they use something like molotovs or fireball, or burning hands, etc...
However, I ALWAYS have the problem, that my players, after checking how a swarm works in combat (dealing damage if someone is standing in it's space after his movemet) they always start to run the thing out! I haven't found anything against it by now... any help?
I ruled that slashing weapons do only half damage against a swarm and even if the PCs win, they only break up the swarm, not really kill it, unless they use something like molotovs or fireball, or burning hands, etc...
Against a swarm of tiny creatures, piercing and slashing weapons do only half damage. Swarms of diminutive or fine creatures are *immune* to weapon damage. (Except special improvised weapons like torches, or toppling over a bookcase.)
You're right that "killing" a swarm only causes it to break up. So it might reform if the PCs decide to come back the next day.
However, I ALWAYS have the problem, that my players, after checking how a swarm works in combat (dealing damage if someone is standing in it's space after his movemet) they always start to run the thing out! I haven't found anything against it by now... any help?
You've misunderstood how swarms work in combat. The swarm does damage to anyone standing in its space at the end of *its* turn. And don't forget that it provokes an AoO when it enters a opponents space, a chance for the opponent to smack it with a torch.
Check out the d20 3.5 online srd:
[url]http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm[/url]
Don't forget to read the section on the Swarm subtype as well.
[url]http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#swarmSubtype[/url]
That's where you'll learn about the immunities of swarms, which for some incomprehensible reason isn't mentioned in the Swarm monster entry of the SRD.
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Against a swarm of tiny creatures, piercing and slashing weapons do only half damage. Swarms of diminutive or fine creatures are *immune* to weapon damage. (Except special improvised weapons like torches, or toppling over a bookcase.)
Ups... Of course, you're right! Believe me, I've read this entry in the book a couple of times, but...well...
You're right that "killing" a swarm only causes it to break up. So it might reform if the PCs decide to come back the next day.
Yeah - reforming is great!
You've misunderstood how swarms work in combat. The swarm does damage to anyone standing in its space at the end of *its* turn. And don't forget that it provokes an AoO when it enters a opponents space, a chance for the opponent to smack it with a torch.
At the end of *its* (the swarms) turn?
Yeah, but normally a pc can outrunn a swarm, can't he? My pcs always take a double move action and runn away from the swarm, which is normally slower. Or do I still get it wrong?
At the end of *its* (the swarms) turn?
Yeah, but normally a pc can outrunn a swarm, can't he? My pcs always take a double move action and runn away from the swarm, which is normally slower. Or do I still get it wrong?
Well, you can always try to run away from anything that's slower than you are, provided you have somewhere to run to. The beetle swarm has a move of 20, so unarmored PCs should be able to outrun it easily.
But a swarm of angry vermin can be relentless in pursuit of something that has disturbed its nest....
Don't forget to read the section on the Swarm subtype as well.
[url]http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#swarmSubtype[/url]
That's where you'll learn about the immunities of swarms, which for some incomprehensible reason isn't mentioned in the Swarm monster entry of the SRD.
Thanks for the link. That was much more helpful (in addition to everyone's comments here so thanks to everyone else as well).
No surprise, I still have some questions. The issue with grappling has not been address. It would seem to make sense that once they move into your space and do damage, especially crawling creatures like the beetles, that they are attached to your body and most likely up in your clothes and/or armor. So I don't even see the option of "outrunning" it. Plus, how do you attack something like that without hurting yourself? Does grappling come into play or is that up to the DM? The only flaw there is the strength check... but I guess if they have clawed feet that can grip your skin, they would be harder to "ungrapple" by flicking off your body then say a swarm of worms. Oh the confusion...
Also, I don't totally agree with the "not killing" the swarm issue. Or should I say, I think it would depend. If you dropped a fireball on a swarm of beetles that took up a 5ft square... I would have to say that it would be very difficult for any survivors to reswarm. However, in regards to "killing" it with a sword, that would seem to make sense. Anyone have an idea of how long it would take to reform? Are we talking rounds here (similar to a troll) or minutes? More DM discretion I assume.
Basically, I am afraid of killing my characters since most have dark vision, so they don't even own torches. And I keep going back in my head how are they supposed to fight something that is crawling all over their bodies doing 1d6+1d4acid per round. Mainly since the average HPs is around 14 and at an average of 5 points damage per round, that is only 3 rounds before death assuming they don't somehow disperse it prior. I don't believe they even have oil flasks or vials of acid. Who's fault is that you say? They are inexperienced 2nd level vagrants from the slums of Diamond Lake with little to no money. Of course, what's a better lesson than life itself?
In fear of having my PCs pulling out their 6 siders to reroll characters, I reread the module and it appears the only saving grace is that there is only 1 swarm (I thought that there were three for some reason) and they do have arcane and divine powers within the party. It is just inevitable that someone will die (or "almost" die) before this encounter is finished, especially if the damage to kill the swarm also effects the PC being swarmed.
. . . that they are attached to your body and most likely up in your clothes and/or armor. So I don't even see the option of "outrunning" it.
My players mentioned the same thing to me, how do you just step out of a swarm, aren't they on your body. My answer was yes, but I would assume that the character is jumping around and smacking himself in an effort to rid himself of the bugs. When he steps out of the swarm he has but a few (a relative term when talking about a swarm of hundreds of creatures) left on him, too few to actually do damage or distract him.
Plus, how do you attack something like that without hurting yourself? Does grappling come into play or is that up to the DM?
You don't! One of my players ended up in the swarm when the sorcerer let loose with Burning Hands. Both the swarm (which took +50% damage for an area of effect spell) and the character took damage. None of my players even suggested grappling the swarm. How the heck would you grapple something made up of tiny bugs. Who would willing jump into a swarm of bugs that do damage automatically!?!?
. . . a fireball on a swarm of beetles that took up a 5ft square... I would have to say that it would be very difficult for any survivors to reswarm. . .
I totally agree with you on this one. A Fireball would take care of the swarm. It's not likely that your players are going to have one however....
. . . Basically, I am afraid of killing my characters since most have dark vision, so they don't even own torches. . .
I had this exact problem with my party. The only light source they had was a sunrod. After the Burning Hands spell was used up they had to get inventive, which they did....(take a look at my post on Running the Adventure).
I don't believe they even have oil flasks or vials of acid. Who's fault is that you say? They are inexperienced 2nd level vagrants from the slums of Diamond Lake with little to no money. Of course, what's a better lesson than life itself?
I read the module over considering the same thing for all the encounters. My entire party are first time players: My girlfriend, her 12 year old son, and 12 year old daughter. There are several encounters in this module that have major potential to be deadly for them. Apart from the swarm, the brown mold that doubles in size when fire is applied comes to mind.
There are several possible solutions I've been pondering. First of all, I am going to just pre-generate and equip their characters, so we can get into the act of actually playing quickly and not bore them with setup, so I figure I can equip them with oil and acid flasks if need be. In your case it sounds like your party is already equipped, so why not leave some flasks of acid/oil lying around for the party. For instance, in the backpack in area 5 that contains the indigo lantern. Or, if you're concerned your players won't go back into the wolf's den, maybe put them in a backpack or sack somewhere else in the main entry area.
The second issue you have to worry about is, are your players even going to know or try to use fire to kill them before it's too late? I'm considering letting them roll some sort of knowledge check to do it. if they fail the knowledge check, I'm just going to tell them outright.
As far as the brown mold is concerned, I was just looking at the srd and apparently it does non-lethal damage, so it won't necessarily kill the party, but I'll have to look at how to help the party deal with it more. I haven't DM'd or played in 20 years, so I'm doing a lot of research. Gotta hurry with it though, becase I plan on starting the campaign as soon as the online supplement comes out, which should be in the next couple of days.
I'm going to start a new thread about the mold.
None of my players even suggested grappling the swarm. How the heck would you grapple something made up of tiny bugs. Who would willing jump into a swarm of bugs that do damage automatically!?!?
I think scootrose was actually talking about the opposite. Is the swarm effectively grappling the player.
I've lose a couple PCs to swarms in the past. The biggest problem of a beetle swarm (like the one in the beginner adventure at the back of the Eberron book, or the one in Whispering Cairn) is that new players, with low level PCs think of their weapons first. So what is likely to happen is that they encounter a swarm, take the AoO as it enters their space, fail to damage it with their weapons, if they even manage to hit it, and then they take damage from the swarm. Second round they try to attack the swarm again, because they missed it the first time, or with a different weapon type since the first type failed to do any damage. Then they move out of the swarm. The swarm then advances on them, they take their AoOs, failing to hurt the swarm, then they take damage from the swarm. This may be enough to fell one or more of the PCs, In which case, I as a DM shooting for realism, would have the swarm stay and feast on the fallen PC, stripping them to the bone. Dead PC(s). Now this might have bought time for the other PCs. Spells are then tried next. A Magic Missile is usually wasted on the swarm as it finished off the mage’s fallen comrade. Then the Swarm heads for a new target. At this point some one in the party (and there is usually only one person in a party of four that is carrying a lit torch (ok, maybe two people)) will either be taken down by the swarm and thus drop the torch, unintentionally hurting the swarm, or will take the swing with the torch and actually hurt the swarm. Once this is done, then everyone breaks out the flammables and the Swarm gets roasted. Still, there is a good chance that at least two PC are now gleaming skeletons. This can easily frustrate a new player who was expecting to open a door and run an Orc through with their sword and then make off with some pie.
My recommendations for running a party’s first encounter with a diminutive swarm:
Give them a round at least to see the swarm coming: This way you can see if they have any idea about using torches. They may also be able to learn that missile weapons are ineffective.
If you can do it without looking like you are being manipulative, focus the swarm on a fighter type PC that can afford to take damage while they learn that their weapons are ineffective.
Swarms are basically mindless, they want to eat. If the PC’s drop food, or fall to the swarm, the swarm should spend the time to eat all there is. Sometimes this sucks for a Player that is hoping that the Swarm will move on and leave their PC alive, but unconscious in their wake. I usually have the swarm stay over a body until they reduce it to -20 HP at which point they move on leaving only bones behind. This may buy the rest of the PCs some time, it also lets you as the DM decide if you are going to end up with a TPK, and have the swarm disperse after filling up on the Rogue. The party learns a lesson, but only one player is rolling up a new character.
If a Party runs from a swarm because they have no idea how to fight it, and makes it back to anyone that they tell the story to, allow that person some chance to mention something about once having to burn out a spider nest in the wood pile “Why them suckers went right up in the crackling flame”.
ASEO out
You know, an interesting way for the party to defeat the swarm that nobody has mentioned is that they could run for the lantern chains, climb up them, and drop burning oil on the swarm. Unless you decide that the swarm is going to climb up the walls to the ceiling and come down the chain, or, if you think the beetles can jump that far, spring straight from the walls onto the player, the players could escape the encounter completely unscathed.
Ebbtide, thanks for clarifying my grappling comment. Also, I too thought of climbing the chain and hopefully some of my PCs will too. If I explain the situation well enough they might as well.
I HATE killing my PCs, but I am a very realistic DM. In regards to taking the PC to -20 (which sounds realistic), maybe I can persuade myself that they are attracted to movement...
I also like your idea of planting some oil vials in the backpack found in the wolf den (since they haven't searched there yet). I think that one of the areas I need to improve when DMing is dropping subtle hints or realizing a gap in their capabilities and provide helpful tools that will aid them without it being obvious.
As far as "escaping" the swarm, I think I am leaning towards performing a grapple check for the PCs. Since they only have a STR of 1 it should be easy, but they still have to beat my roll with a -5 modifier (not to mention most of them have some type of bonus to their STR). But the option still exists that they might not be able to "beat" off enough to remove the damage that they will inflict.
You know, an interesting way for the party to defeat the swarm that nobody has mentioned is that they could run for the lantern chains, climb up them, and drop burning oil on the swarm. Unless you decide that the swarm is going to climb up the walls to the ceiling and come down the chain, or, if you think the beetles can jump that far, spring straight from the walls onto the player, the players could escape the encounter completely unscathed.
We had one player, the rogue, do this, but after he'd climbed up thirty feet, he failed his climb check with a natural '1', subsequently falling forty feet and taking himself to -5 hp...oops.
BTW, it's my understanding that swarms take NO damage from conventional weapons, because the weapon can only target an individual creature in the swarm. By the same token, targeted spells generally have no effect, but area spells do.
Swarms are just another type of creature (or subtype to be precise) that is meant to test players ingenuity and survival skills. Oozes have filled this role for ages, and swarms are in the same category. The point is that once a PC faces a swarm he will know better next time (once he succumbs to the swarm or not). It's the old adage "live (or die) and learn". I bet once a newby meets a swarm he wont forget to buy alchemist's fire or acid next time!
Remember that swarms are made up of hundreds or even thousands of members. A centipede swarm deals 2d6 points of damage because the swarm is composed of over 1,500 centipedes. While a PC might have 50 or so centipedes clinging to him once he exits the swarm they dont deal enough damage to be noticeable (though their bites might be painful or their presence in his armor revolting). Since the beetle swarm is probably made up of thousands of beetles, even a hundred clinging to you wont cause any appreciable damage. As for grappling a swarm, you must be insane!
A diminutive or fine swarm only reforms if it has been dispersed by a wind effect (such as from a gust of wind spell) and reforms once the its hit points exceed the nonlethal damage it has received. Remember that monsters (including swarms) heal nonlethal damage at a rate of 1 hit point per hit dice per hour of rest, so a 3 HD swarm heals 3 hit points per hour. Finally, fire, spells, and improvised weapons deal lethal damage to a swarm, making it impossible for it to reform (at least in any realistic gaming time frame).
Hopefully, I have shed some light on the subject or clouded it in darkness :-)
Remember that swarms are made up of hundreds or even thousands of members. A centipede swarm deals 2d6 points of damage because the swarm is composed of over 1,500 centipedes. While a PC might have 50 or so centipedes clinging to him once he exits the swarm they dont deal enough damage to be noticeable (though their bites might be painful or their presence in his armor revolting). Since the beetle swarm is probably made up of thousands of beetles, even a hundred clinging to you wont cause any appreciable damage. As for grappling a swarm, you must be insane!
Let me clarify again... THE SWARM IS GRAPPLING THE PC! It fits perfectly. They move into your space, provoke an AOO and then do damage. Gee, sounds like a grapple to me.
Also, how are they doing damage? THOUSANDS are all over the PC biting them, burning them, etc... i.e. "SWARM". Imagine a PC being engulfed in a wave of black beetles, so just taking a 5 foot step is not going to miraculously leave only 50 on your person.. Come on now.
Your explanation on reforming did some shed light on the issue. Thanks.
Let me clarify again... THE SWARM IS GRAPPLING THE PC! It fits perfectly. They move into your space, provoke an AOO and then do damage. Gee, sounds like a grapple to me.Also, how are they doing damage? THOUSANDS are all over the PC biting them, burning them, etc... i.e. "SWARM". Imagine a PC being engulfed in a wave of black beetles, so just taking a 5 foot step is not going to miraculously leave only 50 on your person.. Come on now.
Your explanation on reforming did some shed light on the issue. Thanks.
Of course your'e right about the swarm (to a point), but then swarms would become the ultimate DM's TPK!
I think the designers at WoTC assumed that a PC would be shaking off large numbers of the swarm as he or she moved. Also, they might have assumed that some of the swarm would fall off on its own accord. Finally, your'e assuming that the swarm would be crawling all over any PC it attacks. This is not necessarily the case.
We could debate these points endlessly, but in the end DMs need to come up with their own explanation on how swarms work. I think the rules are good enough without becoming tedious, but other DMs might like adding a bit more realism to their swarms.
Debating like this is fun. Perhaps someone could come up with an alternate set of statistics for the beetle swarm in "The Whispering Cairn" incorporating some of the suggestions made by people on this thread, with special grappling rules, etc.
I had to post this because it was SO FREAKING funny.
My PCs where screwing around with the lever on the sarcophagus when it clicked into the third position. So when the alcove self-destructed all five PCs were standing around the sarcophagus staring and wondering what the hell happened. When the ungodly geyser of beetles erupted from the floor every single one of them ran, except one. She was the one that was manipulating the lever.
She (Nadia) tried one more time to try and reverse the “beetle affect”. Heehee. She failed her DC and then RAN to follow the others hauling tail out of the room. She was the second to last to exit the room and the only one with the torch. The half-orc that ran out first was the only other with darkvision. Anyway, the PC in front of Nadia was running so fast down the stairs he failed a DC 10 balance check (and so did Nadia) so the first one out tripped and fell down the stairs and then Nadia tripped over him and fell prone. Laughter.
As the beetles caught right up to them then both jumped up and ran. As Nadia passed the torch, she tried to pick it up, on the run and failed. Not only did she fail, but she rolled a 1. There was more laughter when I told her that she would have to roll another balance check to see if she goes prone again.
Unbeknownst to all the party members, they were being followed by a sorcerer who was standing just outside the cobwebs against the wall. All she saw were 3 PCs flying by in the dark screaming holy hell and then followed quickly thereafter by a torch going skittering across the floor. 6 seconds later another PC ran by, then another that attempted to pick up the torch and failed. I gave her a 50/50 chance to following the fleeing characters (and she failed). <foreboding laughter> So as she stuck her head around the corner to see what the hell that was all about, the wave of black mass engulfed her. <the visual caused one of our players to almost piss her pants> She proceeded to dose herself with oil and ignite herself. This stunt, took 2 turns which ended up taking her down 1 hitpoint due to beetle damage (she made one poison save and she had protection from fire).
So the rest of the party catapulted out of the entrance of the cairn only to hear gut wrenching screams behind them. They instantly did a party count and found everyone accounted for. <more laughter> Then down the tunnel, they see a flash of light followed by a figure coming running down the tunnel all ablaze. <more pee breaks> The archer drew his bow and narrowed in on the humanoid fire ball. The sorcerer was trying to yell to the party but nobody could hear what she was saying (they all failed their listen checks). More laughter (except for the sorc’s PC).
The archer asked the rest of the scared shitless party members for guidance and they all said to plug the hellspawn. So two arrows went true, right into the chest of the sorcerer. Ironically, the sorcerer had decided to take the armor check penalties of 15% and don leather armor with a buckler. (This decision saved her hide because both arrows missed by 2) The flames only lasted for 3 rounds so she ran by the PCs as she exited the cairn, dropped to the ground and surprised the PCs with a new party member in dire need of healing (but having rid them of the beetle menace).
You know, an interesting way for the party to defeat the swarm that nobody has mentioned is that they could run for the lantern chains, climb up them, and drop burning oil on the swarm. Unless you decide that the swarm is going to climb up the walls to the ceiling and come down the chain, or, if you think the beetles can jump that far, spring straight from the walls onto the player, the players could escape the encounter completely unscathed.We had one player, the rogue, do this, but after he'd climbed up thirty feet, he failed his climb check with a natural '1', subsequently falling forty feet and taking himself to -5 hp...oops.
You do realize that a roll of "natural 1" on a skill check is just a 1, not an automatic failure, don't you? Climbing a chain is the same DC as a knotted rope, DC 5. If your player rolled a 1, he would have to have a total Climb PENALTY of -1 before he actually fell off the chain. If he had any bonuses at all, from Str or skill ranks, all that rolling a 1 would do for him (or rather, TO him) would be that he wouldn't be able to climb any higher that round. You have to miss a Climb DC by 5 or more before you actually fall. And most importantly, "Unlike with attack rolls and saving throws, a natural roll of 20 on the d20 is not an automatic success [for a skill check], and a natural roll of 1 is not an automatic failure." (PHB 3.5, p. 63)
Sorry to rules lawyer this, but it seems like that error might have killed a PC thru rules ignorance.
You know, an interesting way for the party to defeat the swarm that nobody has mentioned is that they could run for the lantern chains, climb up them, and drop burning oil on the swarm. Unless you decide that the swarm is going to climb up the walls to the ceiling and come down the chain, or, if you think the beetles can jump that far, spring straight from the walls onto the player, the players could escape the encounter completely unscathed.We had one player, the rogue, do this, but after he'd climbed up thirty feet, he failed his climb check with a natural '1', subsequently falling forty feet and taking himself to -5 hp...oops.You do realize that a roll of "natural 1" on a skill check is just a 1, not an automatic failure, don't you? Climbing a chain is the same DC as a knotted rope, DC 5. If your player rolled a 1, he would have to have a total Climb PENALTY of -1 before he actually fell off the chain. If he had any bonuses at all, from Str or skill ranks, all that rolling a 1 would do for him (or rather, TO him) would be that he wouldn't be able to climb any higher that round. You have to miss a Climb DC by 5 or more before you actually fall. And most importantly, "Unlike with attack rolls and saving throws, a natural roll of 20 on the d20 is not an automatic success [for a skill check], and a natural roll of 1 is not an automatic failure." (PHB 3.5, p. 63)
Sorry to rules lawyer this, but it seems like that error might have killed a PC thru rules ignorance.
Actually, my friend, the DC for climbing the chain, as it is clearly stated in the adventure on page 26, is 15. I realize a natural 1 on skill checks is not an auto failure, but in this case, even with skill points added, his total climb check was less than 10, thus he failed the check by more than 5 and fell.