I am about to begin DM'ing AP1 and I have a question.
The Cryohydra in Zenith Trajectory is a CR 8 monster supposed to challange a lvl 6 party, right? This mean little guy does 21d6 cold damage DC 18 ref half in a cone every 1d4 rounds.
I can just see the party being all but wiped out from the 73 points of damage in the first round. So, am I missing something or should the cryohydra maybe be changed to something.. less lethal?
The AP seems to have several TPK situations of similar magnitude but the Zenith Trajectory seems to have an alarming amount.
//My Lego
I just finished Zenith Trajectory a few weeks ago. The cryohydra was nearly a TPK, but they retreated, regrouped, and went in with better tactics. The tough part about that encounter was the fact they didn't know what they were going to be up against.
Incidentally, the three (3) EL 9's in a row with virtually no break in the action was a bit tough as well. Although, in fairness, my party has very little in the way of ranged weapons, so Aushanna pretty much just flew around and shot at them. But, even then, they figured it out.
The AP is challenging, but I have not had nearly as many deaths as I originally thought I would have. Keep the faith.
Creative Director
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The cryohydra's rough, but remember that its breath weapon isn't technically 21d6 but actually 7 3d6 cold attacks; characters with cold resistance from magic items or spells or racial qualities should be able to avoid a lot of this damage. Also, unless the entire group is clumped together, the hydra's breath weapon is relatively small so it probably won't get the entire party, leaving a few people alive to run back to town to start lives of indentured servitude under Jenya or Embril for some resurrection magic.
Of course, you don't often hear, "We're entering the underdark, my boon companions! Ready your resistances to cold!" so chances are the cryohydra's gonna freeze a lot of people to death.
My group pratically killed the dang thing in two rounds... It was hurt so severly that it was forced to retreat into the tunnel. The group dropped down into the tunnel mouth and charged... it wasn't pretty.
However, the main temple can be brutal. The demon and kuo-toa priests are bad enough, but add in the cleric, and it really gets vicious. If there's anywhere to be careful, this is the spot.
Squid
The hydra wasn't a big problem. The battle in the main temple sure was. Aushanna killed 1 character and an animal companion. When the high priest arrived everyone was so beat down that I had him capture them all and leave them in the prison cells. They eventually escaped, but some players were more upset that most of their gear was missing than if it had been a TPK.
Of course the resisting cold damage only applies on a per round basis. That is once the resistance has been met the rest of the attacks that round penetrate the cold resistance. SO resistance works if only hit by a couple breaths at a time. If the group is clumped together and hit by the 21d6, cold resistance doesn't help that much.
However keep in mind that the railing gives cover, which gives the PCs a bonus on their reflex saves. That makes the DC18 a little more bareable. My party still almost had a TPK, but only lost a single PC in the encounter. Also one of the PCs jumped the railing to 'charge' the hydra. While this almost killed the PC, it drew enough attention to allow the rest of the party to take up more tactical positioning and was a big influence on the party's win.
As for the temple fight, that was a rough one. There was still 2 whips left when the demon appeared. The demon got killed 2 rounds before the head whip showed up and the party spent that time more concerned with treasure than with healing so were not prepared at all for another combat.
Ironicly one of the PCs was the perfect conter to the head whip's 'raise water flood the chamber' tactic. See the player rolled crap stats for his newest PC, 8,9,10,10,11, and 18. The idea was a hp master PC. his 18 con became a 20 for being a dwarf. He was also the atrtic varient published in a Dreagon issue some time back (no LA, gains I believe +4 con for -4 chr). Anyways he had a 24 con. He was the one who got caught in the chamber when the whip controlled the water to flood the room. Having a 24 con he could hold his breath for a very long time even when performing combat. In addition with his high hp due to his con mod, hp feats (he was a fighter and the dwarf/giant/dragon toughness feats in masters of the wild are available as fighter bonus feats), and Arcana Unearther variants (+1 hp/lev for half normal base speed) and 2 flaws to gain more hp feats, he had no problems with not being able to heal with potions. Even if he needed to heal he had 1 level of cleric and a cure light wounds wand tied to his shield. Top it off with right before leaving Cauldron he purchases multiple vials of longerbreath from Arms and Equipment guide, allowing you to increase the number of rounds remaining that you can hold your breath by 50%. (He bought these because in Flood Season the bridge elevator thing broke for being overfilled and while everyone else was able to swim or levitate, I had to figure up when it fell and if Jeff's PC had enough time to walk along the bottom to shore, which he did. He was weighed down with full plate, got a survival check to know the right direction to travel.) All in all the dwarf combated the whip alone until someone got the door open and let the water out. It was a very intense, very fun encounter that we all enjoyed.
Thanks everyone.
We just started Lifes Bazaar yesterday and it went well, but that hydra has been a great concerne of mine. We have a tiefling wizard in the group and I don't really know how the characters are going to develop so I'll have some faith ;) but I can just see them all walking merrily down those stairs and then ... BAM!!! You see the picture.
I'll let you know when they hit the Hydra. :)
Maybe some warning is in order. Damaged stairs/railing/walls in the section the hydra usually attacks. Perhaps some small puddles of water from an earlier cold blast.
My party hasn't encountered this one, but it does seem a bit rough to just "ok, you walk down the stairs, get blasted, everyone make saves".
I too have been concerned about the potential damage from the Cryohydra. I tend to run through the encounters before-hand in my mind, sometimes on paper, and get a few ideas on how the party will react given past performances and tactics, and the current party make-up. Although it seems that a Resist Energy spell will likely be of great assistance, I've never yet seen either of our clerics memorize that spell. Our swashbuckler does have a pair of Boots of the Winterlands, but that doesn't help the rest of the party. I think the biggest aid the party will have is the limited range of those cones of cold breath: only 10 ft. wide/high x 20 ft. long. With the party originally spaced out along the stairway, it's unlikely that more than 2 or 3 PCs will be in the area of the first blast. Besides which, with only a 20 ft. length, the hydra will be well within range of the party's light sources and darkvision before they come within range of its breath weapon.
Given the previous tactics employed by my party, they may try some divination magic before they go to the Pit of the Seven Jaws... after all, our main cleric is a priest of Istus (goddess of Fate and Divination). If so, I'll likely give some cryptic remark about dressing warmly so they may deduce that it may be cold. Even wearing a Cold Weather Outfit (standard equipment) may grant some bonus to cold saves (not officially, but I may let it help if they plan ahead). Besides which, they will likely scout ahead either with the Ranger (whose Survival skill may detect some clue to what lies ahead), or the Rogue (whose Reflex save is through the roof!)
One thing I'm curious about this encounter though: the adventure lists that the cold breath of the hydra may break the pins holding up the stairs, right? But since it's breath only does 3d6 per head (max 18), you quarter the damage for cold to metal (4 or 5 points), and THEN you subtract the 10 hardness from the damage, how can the hydra's attack harm the pegs? Are we supposed to add all the heads breath attacks together? (3d6 x 7 = 77 avg/ 126 max; 126/4 = 31 -10 hardness = 21, applied to 20 hit points). It seems you would need to roll max damage to even have a chance to break the pegs, using these calculations. Also, if we apply the damage en masse like this to the structure, do we also apply it to the party, for the aforementioned dreaded 21d6 cold breath attack? How do you other DMs handle this?
Even after all this, according to the MM, unless the party is launching fireballs and flame strike spells that hurt the body, they will still need to be using slashing weapons in Sunder maneuvers to cut off the heads and kill the critter. Without Improved Sunder, they will be getting bitten by pre-emptive AoO bite attacks, which cause them to lose their Sunder attack if the AoO hits! And their missile weapons, piercing, or bludgeoning weapons do nothing at all, right? It seems like even without the breath weapon, a seven-headed hydra could really wreak havoc on a party unless they have just the right combination of spells, weapons and feats! Suggestions, anyone?
I don't believe there's an actual rule on this or not but I ruled since the hydra has reach (10' I think), than it only makes since that it could fire it's BW from 10' away from the body, since the BW does come from the heads. Also since the creatures base also has a height, the BW can already be fired from say 10' off the floor level, 20' if you include the reach, allowing the BW to hit up to 40' above the chasms floor level.
I never bothered with the pegs because that week we had two old players (who had played 2nd with me and another guy in the current group) show up. I was having too much trouble keeping the game under control letting them know we enjoy 3rd, this isn't 2nd, and I wasn't going to stand for ruining everyone else's fun being ruined because 'well in 2nd edition we could...' etc. to mess with fine details. After looking up objects though you are right about the pegs not being a hazard due to 1/4 damage of max 18, with 10 hardness. If I was going to make the pegs an actual hazard I would suggest maybe reducing the hardness to 5 due to weathering, age, and such. Also apply cold damage at 1/2 rather than 1/4 due to long time exposure and frost build up. Of course if you are going to make these adjustments it is only fair to describe frost build up and such on the stairwell and maybe even a small balance DC due to ice (maybe DC5 at half movement with a +3 bonus for using the handrail)
Also I posted this info last night but it didn't show up. This thread really isn't the place to discuss this but it has happened to me a few times and it is wearing on my nerves.
Well Maveric, if your characters try to sunder it's heads and take damage from a AoO they don't lose their sunder attempt.
Secondly those heads really do produce one 21d6 blast. Both in the SRD and MM the cryo-Hydra produces one jet, not several and that jet does 3d6/head. That means that the pegs are a real hazard if the hydra rolls well, just hope that to many characters are not cought in the jet. But since the blast is not really that large the whole group probably won't get deep frozen. :)
Secondly those heads really do produce one 21d6 blast. Both in the SRD and MM the cryo-Hydra produces one jet, not several and that jet does 3d6/head. That means that the pegs are a real hazard if the hydra rolls well, just hope that to many characters are not cought in the jet. But since the blast is not really that large the whole group probably won't get deep frozen. :)
Even James stated the that it is 7 different 3d6 blasts, not a single 21d6 blast. Just because the blasts are all released at the same time, they are being released by multiple heads, most likely in multiple directions.
However I could see a DM allowing only one save regardless of the number of blasts caught in, due to the fact you are dodging them all at the same time, and are considered the same attack. I'd also agree with multiple saves since they are also seperate breaths coming at different angles and such. I would say that this should be discussed as a group and become a 'house rule' and not a case by case concern.
Also, I didn't consider before the breaths being the same action when dealing with the pegs. I would agree with adding the damage together when applying it to the pegs since the damage is happening all at once, however it doesn't mean that enough BWs hit the area of a peg to due much, if any, damage. I'd still use one of the options I presented above if wanting to make the pegs a real threat in this encounter.
Of course the resisting cold damage only applies on a per round basis. That is once the resistance has been met the rest of the attacks that round penetrate the cold resistance. SO resistance works if only hit by a couple breaths at a time. If the group is clumped together and hit by the 21d6, cold resistance doesn't help that much.
this was true for the most part in 3.0
however in 3.5 elemental resistaces (either natural or through magic) work on a per attack basis rather then a per round basis.
Secondly those heads really do produce one 21d6 blast. Both in the SRD and MM the cryo-Hydra produces one jet, not several and that jet does 3d6/head. That means that the pegs are a real hazard if the hydra rolls well, just hope that to many characters are not cought in the jet. But since the blast is not really that large the whole group probably won't get deep frozen. :)
Even James stated the that it is 7 different 3d6 blasts, not a single 21d6 blast. Just because the blasts are all released at the same time, they are being released by multiple heads, most likely in multiple directions.
However I could see a DM allowing only one save regardless of the number of blasts caught in, due to the fact you are dodging them all at the same time, and are considered the same attack. I'd also agree with multiple saves since they are also seperate breaths coming at different angles and such. I would say that this should be discussed as a group and become a 'house rule' and not a...
We might have to agree to disagree on this issue. What I am supporting my belief on is the line from MM 1 page 157.
"Each jet deals 3d6 points of cold damage per head. A successful Reflex save halves that damage"
That implies one of two things a seven-headed hydra sprayes 7 jets each dealing 21d6 och damage for a blasphemous amount of mr. Frozt or the hydra as an entity breaths one jet that does 21d6 of cold damage. I can't really see any other options from the text in either MM or the SRD but I may be missing something here.
Actually, from reading the MM it looks like M_L is correct... the cryohydra only gets 1 jet, and it deals 3d6 points of damage per head that it has. so a 7 header gets one blast every 1d4 rounds dealing 21d6(Save for 1/2). A bit on the high side for a cr 8 creature if you ask me.
Actually, from reading the MM it looks like M_L is correct... the cryohydra only gets 1 jet, and it deals 3d6 points of damage per head that it has. so a 7 header gets one blast every 1d4 rounds dealing 21d6(Save for 1/2). A bit on the high side for a cr 8 creature if you ask me.
i would dissagree why would it get only one frost attack and have 7 heads? and yet still be able to attack independetily from each head each round this just dose not make any sence... i would think that you would lissen to the editor and cheaf of the magazine as to how it would work... i have also ased on the wizards boards and found they would agree... Each head has a seprate frost attack if they all attacked at once it would be 21d6 but with 7 saves each for 1 half of 3d6 let's think a little out of the box please
These purplish hydras can breathe jets of frost 10 feet high, 10 feet wide, and 20 feet long. All heads breathe once every 1d4 rounds. Each jet deals 3d6 points of cold damage per head. A successful Reflex save halves the damage. The save DC is 10 + 1/2 hydra’s original number of heads + hydra’s Con modifier.
thinking out of the box is fine, but in this case it ignores what is clearly written in the rules.
my quote is directly from the SRD, lets disect it shall we...
These purplish hydras can breathe jets of frost 10 feet high, 10 feet wide, and 20 feet long. The Hydra breathes the jet of frost... it comes from the creature not from any indvidual head (in fact the next sentence infers that it comes form all of the head at the same time, leading to the conclusion that this line means that all heads breath in the same direction creating a one big jet)...
Each jet deals 3d6 points of cold damage per head. This just tells you how much damage the jet does, in this case 3d6 per head that the hydra possesses, it is not a seperate 3d6 jet for each head, and there is no possible way to read this sentance as saying that it is a seperate 3d6 jet for each head and still follow any sort of gramatical laws.
A successful Reflex save halves the damage. again this is talking about the jet as a whole, there is only 1 jet, only one damage total, only one save.
that is how it must work by the rules as written.
that being said, that is not how I nessicarily think it should work... but how things SHOULD work and how they DO, are often two seperate things, both in the game and in real life.
It's interesting how two people can read the exact same words and get two different interpriaions... However as you said 21d6 seems a little high for a CR 8 do you really think that the MM is that far off? and why would one of the heads have that much power (i'm assumint we agree that it would come from a head because of the word breaths) than the otherones...
I was also wondering if we could get a rulling from one of the people from dungeon magazine... even though we already got one mabye we could get another
Well lordmolay, looks like you made an interesting point on how different people interpet differently. If you want to go completely 'by the book' than this thread has no merit because it would be however the DM reads the entry. Besides, how many times in the past 4 years have the rules been changed. Each addition has its own erettas and also some monsters get redone in another book fixing mistakes in a prior book (ex. MMII version of a bone naga, the updated 3.5 MMII version of a bone naga, the serpent kingdom version of the bone nage [converted into a template]).
Another thing, why does it seem my_lego keeps argueing over the single jet 21d6 instant TPK game over blah blah when he's the guy who started the whole thread about why a CR 8 is that powerful. No offense meant to lego, I just think you wanted the correction but have been unwilling to accept it. Again lordmolay has a good point of do you think the MM would realy give a CR 8 a 21d6 BW every 1d4 rounds?!?! Compare that BW to the CR of other BW creatures. I know dragons are typically more vicious than hydras with their other abilities, but find the lowest CR dragon that can do 21 dice on a BW.
You know... these all all good points. I don' think the rules are really all that clear myself. Those rulebooks are mighty big, and we can't alwyas expect the writers to get the CR right, any more than we can expect them to explain the rules in a clear and concise manner every single time. After all, in a way, they're just guidelines to help you with your game. If there is legitimate debate about a rule, the best thing to do is not use it. Can you imagine the scene when your PCs GET to the Cryohydra? Having a rule debate while gaming always stinks, so why bother creating the scenario?
What I'd do is eliminate the creature all together. If you must have a Hydra, increase the heads and take out the breath weapon. If you must have cold creatures, use two Frost salamanders and change the room around. If you must have a cold weapon, use a small pack of Winter Wolves, or have a weakened Rhemoraz step in (sp?).
I never likes the whole Hydra reworking anyway, with all the sundering, and the enormous Fast Healing it has. It's like we HAD to have a solution that pigeonholes the players into the originial Greek myth EXACTLY, with no deviations or creative solutions possible. The fire/cold breath weapons are just another silly wrinkle for a pretty silly write-up I'd never want to use in the first place.
Anyway, to make a long story short, as long as the CR seems fair and there won't be an in-game debate, you've got a winner. If you alsolutely HAVE to have clarification about the Hydra, you can always write Dragon Magazine for an answer.
Well, since I started this whole nonsense with my question, I guess I should let you all know how I decided to play it out...Without a CLEAR, DEFINITIVE official ruling, I've decided to do something that I've had to do as a DM for the last two-and-a-half decades... wing it.
Careful thought and reading of the MM entry on hydras has led me to believe that the nasty critters have one body but several independent heads, each with a survival safety-lock that keeps them from doing suicidal individual actions (like biting each other, or pulling in opposite directions hard enough to do any damage. I came to this conclusion from the line that reads, "Hydras can attack with all their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round." To my knowledge, no other creature has this ability (feel free to correct me if you can think of one, but don't make a big issue, 'cuz I just don't care all that much). Well, I've decided that each head will attack separately with its breath weapon, just as it attacks separately with its bite attacks. Viewing it this way, I will make its breath weapon separate 3d6 attacks. If all 7 heads breathe in the same direction, it could mean up to 21d6 to anyone caught in the collective blast, but with 7 different Reflex saves, it will likely be far less for a competent adventurer. Furthermore, since each head is separate, I will have them roll separately for how long it takes to recharge between breaths... more paperwork for me, but my party would likely find a way to kill the critter in 4 rounds or less, and this way I can give them the cold shoulder more than once, a nickel at a time. Also, since the beast only has animal-level intellect (Int 2), it may not breathe with every head at once, perhaps unleashing several bursts in the first round, with the others following shortly thereafter... then continuing to fire more as they each get the ability back. Since the creature is a Cold subtype, it will be able to blast attackers in any direction, to the flanks or the rear, and has no fear of catching its body or other heads in the cones as it is immune to cold. Between breaths, it will likely be using its bite attacks to savage any intruders that venture close enough, retreating down that tunnel the AP mentions only if severely threatened, or no one comes close enough to bite.
I think these tactics will make for an appropriate CR 8 battle, challenging a party of eight characters between levels 6 and 7, without guaranteeing that one or more of them must die. A 21d6 blast of cold would do an average of 74 damage, save for half!! That would automatically kill anyone in my party if they failed, and only two or three would survive the remaining 32 unless they had Evasion (and made their save), or cold resistance. Even then, they'd be so hurt that fighting the hydra afterward would likely be a death sentence. The strategy above seems to fit the spirit of the entry for a hydra, with just a little extra effort from the DM, without shattering the rules.
Well Maveric28, I think you made the overall right decision. I kind of like the idea of rolling each head's recharge seperatly, but you only need to keep track of the highest recharge rolled. The MM does state the BWs have to all be fired at the same time.
Of course if I didn't have a new player and a somewhat new player I'd be willing to try your method of each head being able to fire on it's own 'per rounds basis' as it does kinda make since. The DMG version of all heads having to fire in the same round is most likely due mainly for the simplicity it offers by comparision. Good job with the house rule!
I agree, that was a pretty good solution. I still don't want to use the Hydra myself because the creature is still so unwieldy to run, but if I had to, I definitely use your solutions.
Good thinking. . .
Well last night i ran the Hydra adventure right after the red dragon at Crazy jards (with out the party resting) they killed it with some difficulty but not a lot.. i think that the reason the did so well is that the monk went down the stairs frist before the other party members went any further at it attacked him the other players were able to stay at the top of the pit and use ranged wepons to kill it they did eventualy use some had to had fighitng.
I also use the more sensiable 7 heads each with 3d6 cold breath weapons insted of the over powered 21d6 attack... it was a good fight for a 6-7th level party
Chris and Rikkus, you are of course both right. As Rikkus says we can always modify the Hydra to several 3d6 sprays or we could use a different creature. I will probably go with a completely different encounter using some of the new fun bad boys from MM III. We'll see how that works out.
I ran the cryo hydra as 7 x 3d6 frost jets (notice the plural - jets), each with separate timers.
The whole combat was reduced to easy as pie by my PCs. First of all, two of them have evasion and high reflex saves. Second, one is an elf paragon with triple low light vision. Third, two characters have exceedingly high spot checks (the human paragon - spot as class skill and the elf paragon - same), so they noticed the frost residue and potentially rickety stairs. So from the top of the pit (which he walked completely around to scout out, he saw the tunnel opening (in which, the hydra was hiding, about 15' or 20' back (so as not to be seen).
At that point, the elf watched while the rogue/swashbuckler (with a bad spot!) descended a rope onto one of the lower platforms. In the surprise round, the elf spots the hydra, so hydra goes - steps out 5' more and blasts the dangling rogue/swashbuckler with his 7 breath weapons - he makes (evades) 6 of 7 saving throws (by "kicking off the wall at regular intervals!"). Next, the elf casts web into that tunnel. Unfortunately, the hydra fails its reflex save.
Slaughter ensues.
Basically, the hydra has crap for strength (like 19?), so has very little chance of breaking out of the web and then very little chance of moving (even with a natual 20, he moves like 10 feet). After that enounter, I house-ruled a size bonus to the strength check for web. And house-ruled the ability to do a grapple check instead for five above the Str check DC (that goes for any spell - entangle, web, etc.)
The party descended the stairs and nailed the sitting duck hydra with ranged weapons, acid arrows, and scorching rays (hitting even with web-cover) while the cleric (human paragon/cleric of kelanen) with his Travel domain (unimpeded by magical movement hampering effects), charged into the web and power attacked the hydra two-handed (great sword). He took a few AoOs, but gave worse than he got.
The hydra was dead before it even got a recharge on the breath weapon.
The pegs were poorly designed. I removed the hardness fully (but kept the 1/4 damage from cold and made it 7 x 3d6, each rounds down), but still, the hydra died before that was effective...
If people pay attention to lighting issues (low-light vision and darkvision should either negate the surprise of the hydra or mitigate it), this encounter shouldn't be that bad - with the hydra's poor movement and relatively poor positioning, it is vulnerable to area spells like web and grease. If you're forced to resort to sundering, it is a major pain in the arse!
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My party,
Didn't have too much of a problem with this encounter. Initially because the party's scout was a Silver Dragon hatchling (immune to Cold). And secondly because the Cleric of Wee Jas animated the Bulette they'd encountered on the road as a skeleton. Probably not common occurances with most parties.
Jack
Well, since I started this whole nonsense with my question, I guess I should let you all know how I decided to play it out...Without a CLEAR, DEFINITIVE official ruling, I've decided to do something that I've had to do as a DM for the last two-and-a-half decades... wing it.
Careful thought and reading of the MM entry on hydras has led me to believe that the nasty critters have one body but several independent heads, each with a survival safety-lock that keeps them from doing suicidal individual actions (like biting each other, or pulling in opposite directions hard enough to do any damage. I came to this conclusion from the line that reads, "Hydras can attack with all their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round." To my knowledge, no other creature has this ability (feel free to correct me if you can think of one, but don't make a big issue, 'cuz I just don't care all that much). Well, I've decided that each head will attack separately with its breath weapon, just as it attacks separately with its bite attacks. Viewing it this way, I will make its breath weapon separate 3d6 attacks. If all 7 heads breathe in the same direction, it could mean up to 21d6 to anyone caught in the collective blast, but with 7 different Reflex saves, it will likely be far less for a competent adventurer. Furthermore, since each head is separate, I will have them roll separately for how long it takes to recharge between breaths... more paperwork for me, but my party would likely find a way to kill the critter in 4 rounds or less, and this way I can give them the cold shoulder more than once, a nickel at a time. Also, since the beast only has animal-level intellect (Int 2), it may not breathe with every head at once, perhaps unleashing several bursts in the first round, with the others following shortly thereafter... then continuing to fire more as they each get the ability back. Since the creature is a Cold subtype, it will be able to blast attackers in any direction, to the flanks or the rear, and has no...
That was similar to how I ran it. I had each head make a 3d6 breath weapon attack and had them all on seperate timers so I was averaging about two attacks per round (I had to increase the Hydra to an 8 head version due to the size of the PC group of 8 players). My party had a more difficult time with the Hydra's AoO due to it's reach and eight bites on each AoO. I only lost the foolhardy monk who charged down the stairs, noticed the flash-frozen drow, and attacked it rather than the Hydra. They found a rough map that I had spritzed with water and placed in the deep-freeze the night before that showed a section of the underdark that included directions to the Kuo-Toa stronghold. Good times, Good times. My group had a much harder time with the Behir they met as a random encounter in a 10 ft wide tunnel. Lost two PCs to that one.
My group pratically killed the dang thing in two rounds... It was hurt so severly that it was forced to retreat into the tunnel. The group dropped down into the tunnel mouth and charged... it wasn't pretty.
However, the main temple can be brutal. The demon and kuo-toa priests are bad enough, but add in the cleric, and it really gets vicious. If there's anywhere to be careful, this is the spot.
Squid
My party made it by the hydra with very little trouble, but the Erinyes at the temple did them TPK. The biggest reason for this was the inability of the parties tank being thwarted by the unhallow spell. I think this is what makes the center of the temple fight so difficult.
Careful thought and reading of the MM entry on hydras has led me to believe that the nasty critters have one body but several independent heads, each with a survival safety-lock that keeps them from doing suicidal individual actions (like biting each other, or pulling in opposite directions hard enough to do any damage...
Sounds like a well reasoned explanation to me. You get to be the official source on how Hydra Heads work in my campaign until such time as some one puts out a better one that fixs up the rather confusing entry in the MM.
My party took it out in one round, no, sorry, let me rephrase that ONE MEMBER of my party took it out in one round.
With a combination of stacked feats and fist bindings that allowed him to apply a flaming effect to his unarmed atacks.
The party's Monk moved round and dropped down to it, intending to scout out the hole ahead of the party, he landed right in front of it.
It reared up, he beat it on inititative and proceeded to beat the ever loving crap out of it with a several criticals.
It didn't even have time to whimper before it was so much Hydra burgers for the trip.
Monks are evil, EVIL!!!.
*Grumbles*
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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These purplish hydras can breathe jets of frost 10 feet high, 10 feet wide, and 20 feet long. All heads breathe once every 1d4 rounds. Each jet deals 3d6 points of cold damage per head. A successful Reflex save halves the damage. The save DC is 10 + 1/2 hydra’s original number of heads + hydra’s Con modifier.thinking out of the box is fine, but in this case it ignores what is clearly written in the rules.
my quote is directly from the SRD, lets disect it shall we...
These purplish hydras can breathe jets of frost 10 feet high, 10 feet wide, and 20 feet long. The Hydra breathes the jet of frost... it comes from the creature not from any indvidual head (in fact the next sentence infers that it comes form all of the head at the same time, leading to the conclusion that this line means that all heads breath in the same direction creating a one big jet)...
Each jet deals 3d6 points of cold damage per head. This just tells you how much damage the jet does, in this case 3d6 per head that the hydra possesses, it is not a seperate 3d6 jet for each head, and there is no possible way to read this sentance as saying that it is a seperate 3d6 jet for each head and still follow any sort of gramatical laws.
A successful Reflex save halves the damage. again this is talking about the jet as a whole, there is only 1 jet, only one damage total, only one save.
that is how it must work by the rules as written.
that being said, that is not how I nessicarily think it should work... but how things SHOULD work and how they DO, are often two seperate things, both in the game and in real life.
HUH?
Jets of Frost (looks plural to me)
Each Jet deals (still sounds seperate)
There are several jets, one per head that you can aim in any direction you want. 7 saves vs. 3d6.
-I am a Vrock, I'm a Tanar'ri!
My group fought the hydra last night and it took out one of the PC's. They had many chances to revise their tactics though and they really didn't.
First off, they split up as they went down the stairs. One guy jumped down ahead of everyone else, one guy started climbing down, and another flew down. The others waited at the top.
The guy on the stairs failed his jump check and landed prone on the NW landing. Out comes the hydra and blasts him with all 7 heads. He made his save (one save vs all) but still took 30 damage.
The flying dwarven bbn/ftr gets in melee range and goes to down. The hydra and dwarf deal each other 40 points of damage or so. The mage nails the hydra with 2 scorching rays.
After another exchange between the hydra and the dwarf, the hydra is down to single-digit hp's. Instead of attacking once more, the dwarf flies away to safety. The hydra backs up into the tunnel to heal up. The ranger and cleric make it to the bottom. On its turn, the hydra moves up and blasts them both as they are standing side-by-side. Down goes the cleric to -15. A few turns later, the mage hits the hydra with another 2 scorching rays and drops the beast.
The hydra's breath is definitely nasty but after seeing how much damage it dealt, they had many chances to revise their tactics. Alas, now the cleric is dead.
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My campaign's Cryohydra went down pretty quickly last week.
They all headed down the stairs, and the lead character (a half-dragon ranger with only 3HD!) took the breath weapon head on. He made his reflex save, so only took 20 points of damage, leaving him with 4!
They retreated up the stairs, blasted the bejeezus out of it, and the party ninja (okay, shou rogue) tumbled through it into the Underdark tunnel, and led it away, spring attacking it the whole time.
It didn't get to breathe again, didn't get to make a full attack, and in general, while it scared the heck out of the party, didn't do as much mayhem as Gottrod. They didn't bother with hacking off heads, they just did massive damage to it, overcoming it's fast healing 15 ... although there was a moment where it was down, and then got up with 13 hp ...
It didn't get to breathe again, didn't get to make a full attack, and in general, while it scared the heck out of the party, didn't do as much mayhem as Gottrod. They didn't bother with hacking off heads, they just did massive damage to it, overcoming it's fast healing 15 ... although there was a moment where it was down, and then got up with 13 hp ...
By "didn't get to make a full attack..." I hope you don't mean that it only attacked with one head each round. If so, you really gave that monster the shaft. Hydras can attack with ALL their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round (the latter, of course, is what it should have been doing as your player tried leading it away).
D'oh! That isn't spelled out very clearly in the Monster Manual ...
Ah, the poor beast. Screwed again. Future reference... it's the first sentence under the COMBAT section pg. 155.
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I'll be running this encounter in my next game. It should be interesting. The first breath could kill 1 or more characters. But assuming they back off and cast resist cold on the dwarf tank (or the whole party via the mass version in Spell Compendium) they'll then walk all over the poor thing.
The dwarf has a 29 AC via full plate and the armor feats on Rich Burlew's site. The hydra will need to roll a 19 to hit him and he'll be immune to the cold damage.
The fast healing will likely mitigate most of the damage he'll do with his dwarven war axe. However the archery specced ranger and sorc/cleric above will then make quick work of the hydra. Just the fighter and ranger should take 4.16 rounds (going with averages) to kill it in straight up damage. The dwarven cleric will almost certainly cast spiritual weapon for a few extra points and melee it a bit and the sorceror/cleric will be blasting it too. I predict a 3 round fight once engaged, maybe even 2. *sigh* Poor hydra.
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My party went into the maw last week. The Cryohydra decked the leading cahracter (a half-orc barbarian) und brought here into the negatives. Two other chracters came to her help and gave her healing to bring her up to speed, but the hydra had another go directly in the next round. This time the other characters came to the help of the three, brought all into positives (the barbarian was down to -9). The three healed ones stood up and carried the helpers to safety.
Then they healed up and battered the hydra with every fireball, searing light, scroching ray, hunter's maercy they had... that did the trick and the hydra went down.
Aushanna was more complicated though. It could have resulted in a TPK. Charm Monster at will is a very powerful attack.
My group arrived at the Pit of the Seven Jaws this last session. It was a close one. They spotted the hydra and started to flee before the hydra breathed on them. The three lead characters (now in the rear of the retreat) got hit for the 21d6 damage. One made his save and had evasion. Two of them failed their saves and went into negatives, close to instant death. The others dragged them away from the pit.
Of course, just now reading the posts above I realized that they should have made a separate save for each head's breath. I'm not sure if that would have been better or worse for them. But I'll let that go for now, and just remember to do it that way next time when they return fully prepared to take down the hydra.
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My group arrived at the Pit of the Seven Jaws this last session. It was a close one. They spotted the hydra and started to flee before the hydra breathed on them. The three lead characters (now in the rear of the retreat) got hit for the 21d6 damage. One made his save and had evasion. Two of them failed their saves and went into negatives, close to instant death. The others dragged them away from the pit.
Of course, just now reading the posts above I realized that they should have made a separate save for each head's breath. I'm not sure if that would have been better or worse for them. But I'll let that go for now, and just remember to do it that way next time when they return fully prepared to take down the hydra.
Our group got to the Pit last weekend. As they were decending the stairs the three lead chars also got caught by the breath weapon, two dwarves and an elemental cohort. I ended up rolling 7 sets of 3d6 cold damage, recorded it and then asked for 7 reflex saves. Even with the saves both dwarves (a fighter and cleric) were nearly killed. The cleric was dropped to -15, but since I use a house rule where you can drop to your negative constitution score before dying, he was able to stabilize. The elemental was dropped to somewhere around -25 hp in the blast.
The party retreated ASAP playing hot potato with the dwarven cleric in order to get him out. The party rested and really prepped for the following day. This time, decked out with several protection from cold and resist cold spells, enlarge, and several other buff spells. The pary returned to the pit, the wizard unleashed several fireballs while the two warriors (dwarf fighter and shifter ranger) jumped and feather-falled down to the lowest level, and unleashed hell on the hydra. It didn't stand a chance and was down in 2 rounds.
The Cryohydra was a tough encounter. I modified it a bit (metal stairs in the middle of nowhere ? No way) so the PCs had to get down with ropes. They got down on the opposite side of the cave entrance. They are a group of five: two figther types, two clerics and a wizard. Three of them were at the bottom of the pit when they heard the ground trembling. The priestess of Selune was in the middle of her descent and the wizard was still at the top of the cliff, ready to untie the ropes and to get down thanks to "feather fall". No one was surprised. Priestess had the initiative and made a natural 20 on her Climb check. She joined the three others making a perfect 10*10 feet square *evil grin*... The cryohydra arrived and breathed 7 times. Everyone save the wizard upcliff was caught 7 times. One of the fighters was seriously damaged and the priestess was down (she missed 7 saves in a row taking the 21d6) at -6 hp. The other fighter and the priest are respectively an asimaar and a tiefling, their cold resistance was a great help. The asimaar paladin charged while the priest cured the priestess bringing her back in the positives (Go cleric team! lol). The wizard fireballed the monster. The four others split. The human fighter charged but was taken into the negs by the hydra's second AoO (Reflex Attack rulez !) but he was brought back to counciousness by the tiefling priest of Kossuth. He then quaffed a potion of Cure critical wounds. Then he came back into the fray fighting defensively while the paladin was holding the beast. The hydra breathed three other times in the two subsquent rounds while the wizard started to pepper it with two double scorching rays (+50% dmg no save, OMG!). One round later it was down and everyone was panting, trying to catch their breath.
They told me they loved the fight. I did too. However without two clerics, natural cold resistance on two PCs and solid tactics from their part, it could have been gruesome.
Bran.
One of the biggest things going for the hyrda is the fact the players won't be expecting it..of course, my players, having been ultra paranoid for sometime, routinely send the grey elf rogue under invisibility to scout ahead..
with his ridiculous high dex..he is a great sneak and usually spots most of the traps..in this case he reported a hydra was waiting for them..they assumed pyrohydra for some reason but still they managed to surprise it and it was half dead on its first normal round of combat.
The cryohydra's rough, but remember that its breath weapon isn't technically 21d6 but actually 7 3d6 cold attacks
Really? My understanding was that each head contributed to the overall magnitude of the breath as a whole. Hence the 1 reflex save. Otherwise, PCs would get to make 7 reflex saves, right?
Cheers,
Andrew
This has been debated over and over again, it;s up to the DM, my personal though is 7 different cones, but it can go ither way.
(by they way greatescape, you don;t happen to be from the sacramento ca area do you?)
I don't claim any particular expertise in the Anatomy of the Hydra, but seems to me that while it may have 7 heads it doesn't necessary have 7 sets of lungs or "cold bladders." To me, this means when it breaths it breathes out of all its heads at once. I would rule that its onveaction, though the effect depends on which way he head are looking. Since its all at the same time, it would be one reflex save. So 4 heads might face one way, and 3 another. It would also recharge on one timer. I'd rationalize the variablw total bretah with the number of heads as reflecting the overall condition of the hydra.
Here is how our Cryo Hydra encounter went down...
Are you one of my players? Al? Alex?