I was looking through Unfamiliar Ground on Dungeon 119, and started doing the numbers on Snapper, the Battered Skeletal Green Young Dragon. Despite the fact that the stats are adjusted to account fo rthe dragon's battered status, I think the template was applied incorrectly. Can somebody out thre check my numbers on this for me? Either I'm missing something (is a SKELETAL dragon different from a dragon SKELETON? the text mentions the Draconomicon, a book I do not have), or this skeletal dragon is way overpowered.
- Text says CR for a normal Young Adult Green Dragon skeleton (17 HD) is 5. 3.5MM says a 17-HD skeleton is CR 7. Assuming we take the same reductions as in the text, that makes the battered version CR 6, seemingly a bit high for 3rd-lvl party, especially considering the following:
- Text says BAB for Snapper is +17. 3.5MM Says Undead have a BAB of 1/2 HD, and should therefore be +8. This, when added to the Str23 modifier of +6, makes for an attack bonus of +14, not +17 as listed in the text, and Grapple of +18 (+8 BAB, +6 Str, +4 Large) as opposed to +27.
- Init modifier is listed at +4. Improved Initiative (+4) and the Dragon skeleton's augmented Dex (12) should give an Init modifier of +5
- Saves: Text lists Fort +10, ref +10, Will +10. I get Fort +5 (1/3 HD, no Con), ref +6 (1/3 HD, +1 Dex), Will +7 (1/2 HD +2 no Wis Score)
- Frightful Presence Will Save DC is listed as 20. Iformula is 10 + 1/2 HD + Cha mod. I get 13, thanks mostly to the Skeleton's Cha of 1. (10 + 8 - 5 = 13)
- "Battered Skeletal Young Adult Green Dragon" - am I the only one who thinks of food when I hear that title?
Shidara
Beginning to think this is a Draconomicon thing . . .
Creative Director
|
A dragon skeleton is something you get when you apply the skeleton template from the Monster Manual to a dragon.
A skeletal dragon is something you get when you apply the skeletal dragon template from the Draconomicon (page 192) to a dragon.
Snapper was initially created using the Draconomicon template, so that accounts for the majority of the differences in the stats from a standard dragon skeleton; skeletal dragons are tougher than normal dragon skeletons, since they keep their base stas for base attack bonus and base saves from their living days as a living dragon.
A young adult green dragon skeleton has a CR of 7, which is set by its hit dice. A young adult skeletal green dragon has a CR of 5, which is set by dividing the base dragon's CR in half.
Which seems wonky to me. How is it that a skeletal dragon (a tougher creature) ends up with a lower CR? My opinion is that the Draconomicon's skeletal dragon template should use the table on page 226 of the Monster Manual to determine a skeletal dragon's CR. The skeletal dragon still has better hit points, base attack bonus, and saves than a dragon skeleton, but it's Dexterity is 2 points lower since the skeletal dragon template doesn't grant a +2 Dex bonus. It does retain its frightful presence and immunities, though, and doesn't take any penalties to its Charisma score. So the final CR should probably be adjusted by +1 from the Monster Manual list.
Thus, a fully healed Snapper with all its attacks should be a CR 8 monster.
Of course, Snapper's in bad shape when the PCs meet him. He's only got 48 hit points, and not only is he missing a claw and tail attack normally due him but his remaining attacks do less damage than they should. During development, I calculated his CR independantly from any templates, though. He's definately a TOUGH creature for CR 4, but he's probably not tougher than a very young green dragon (also a CR 4 monster), especially when you factor in the fact that Snapper's got no brains and won't fight intelligently.
Well that explains quite a bit. Thanks for the assistance. I'm surprised there wasn't a bigger reference to the Draconomicon; usually, if a template is used, don;t you guys reprint the template in its entirety? I can only imagine space was the limiting factor.
I'll be running the adventure for a 5th-level party, so is there any chance of getting Snapper's full-power stats? I'd at the very least need the Tail attacks, full attack routine, and "normal" damage dice for all attacks.
I may just go with a fully-healed and ready-to-go Juvenile Green Dragon Skeleton instead, or perhaps a "battered" Young Adult skeleton. CR 6 should make for an entertaining climax, and no need to buy another book!
Thanks again!
Shidara
|
Creative Director
|
For templated monsters, we simply print the full stat block for the templated creature, as we did for Snapper. There's never enough room to reprint a full template; the only time we'd put in a full template is when it's a brand new template that hasn't yet appeared in a WotC product or a previous issue of Dragon or Dungeon.
Snapper's full-power stats don't exist, so I can't give them to you without working them up. If you don't have the Draconomicon, a Juvenile Green Dragon Skeleton should fill the role well enough.
But that said, the Draconomicon IS a pretty awesome book... ;-)
Done and done. And maybe I'll give the Draconomicon a second look on that endorsement :)
On a side note, you said earlier that you calculated Snapper's CR independently from any templates; could you shed some light on that procedure? I often fret about the CR of templated or advanced creatures I make because I can;t get a feel for how tough they really are. I'd love some insight on how you determine CR outside of the guidelines handed forth in the MM and DMG.
Shidara
And by the way, nobody gets the food reference in "battered green dragon"?
Really?
Shidara
|
Creative Director
|
Unfortunately, there's no real formula you can apply to a monster to generate its CR. By "calculated its CR," I meant I compared it to numerous other monsters in the Monster Manual across several key points: its hit points, its AC, its primary attack bonus, its average damage in a round if all of its attacks hit, its saving throws, and the save DC of its special abilities.
For a CR 4 creature, Snapper's hp are right about on par. His AC is about 5 points lower than it probably should be, but he does about twice the average damage in a round than most other CR 4 monsters. His saves are a little high, as is his frightful presence save DC, but he's unintelligent which helps balance that stuff out a bit (he doesn't pursue foes, and doesn't focus all his attacks on one target at a time). Overall, he can do a lot of damage to PCs if they let him, but his AC and lack of brain power give him a "glass jaw" so chances are he'll get beaten down fairly quickly.
As an example, here's how Snapper stacks up against other CR 4 unintelligent monsters:
Snapper: AC 12, hp 48, primary attack +22, average damage 28, good save +10, special ability DC 20.
Giant Stag Beetle: AC 19, hp 52, primary attack +10, average damage 23, good save +8, special ability DC 19.
Chimera Skeleton: AC 13, hp 58, primary attack +7, average damage 39, good save +6.
Wyvern Zombie: AC 20, hp 94, primary attack +11, average damage 14, good save +9.
He's definately tougher than this CR 3 monster:
Giant Praying Mantis: AC 14, hp 26, primary attack +6, average damage 18, good save +6.
He's arguable as tough as this CR 5 monster:
Umber Hulk Zombie: AC 19, hp 107, primary attack +14, average damage 12, good save +10.
But nowhere near as tough as this CR 5 monster:
Troll: AC 16, hp 63, primary attack +9, average damage 41 (don't forget rending!), good save +11.
Which puts him at a CR 4. At the HIGH end of CR 4, perhaps, but still a CR 4. Especially since the only thing he really has that's out of whack from the other CR 4 monsters is his attack bonus of +22. He's pretty much going to always hit a 4th level character. But then, those other CR 4 monsters aren't going to have much trouble hitting a 4th level character either, and past a certain point for monsters without Power Attack or Combat Expertise, having a grossly inflated attack bonus really doesn't do much to make you tougher.
Well, thank you! That was exactly what I was looking for - an external way to judge the CR of a monster. I'll be sure to do that from now on for any monsters I feel might be too tough for their CR or EL.
BTW, is this comparison done for all monsters in Dungeon that are Templated or Advanced, and those with class levels added in?
Shidara
|
Creative Director
|
I do comparasions like this for all new monsters, classed monsters, advanced monsters, and templated monsters that appear in Dungeon. About 90% of the time for classed, advanced, and templated monsters, it works out exactly like it should, but sometimes (as in the skeletal dragon template) it's all weirded out.
|
As a bit of an aside: When I first tested out Snapper on my unsuspecting players, they just about jumped out of their skin. They were already somewhat low on hit points at the time, and the description I gave them when Snapper surged out of the water made them want to flee. Unfortunately for them, they had just finished using chunks of fallen rock to bar the door through which they had entered, so retreat was not an option. (The skeletons gave them a run for their money, and they had planned to rest up before fighting their way back out. Whoops.) ;-)
Anyway...it was a tough battle, but they did manage to take him down fairly quickly. Since it's not necessarily a given that the PCs will ever fight the imp and it's entirely possible that Neegla will fall long before the PCs ever get this far, Snapper becomes the real boss of the dungeon; this fight is the final, climactic "Oh crud--this is gonna hurt" battle that really tests the PCs' mettle.
I'm eager to hear how other players have handled him...and how they've reacted to his appearance. I hope he hasn't been responsible for more than his fair share of total party kills...
I'm eager to hear how other players have handled him...and how they've reacted to his appearance. I hope he hasn't been responsible for more than his fair share of total party kills...
I just finished running Unfamiliar Ground -- it was great! It was the third phase of the first campaign I'm running with my kids -- 8 and 10 -- using the Pathfinder Beginner Box (plus some GMing with the Core Rules).
Snapper was absolutely the biggest thrill. The party walked around the room, trying the doors, getting fried by the trapped door, and opening nothing. Then the fighter thought to toss a pebble into the pool, and the splash back that they got was way more than expected! Everyone but the fighter failed their initial frightful presence save and ran out of the room. The fighter/barbarian took one unlucky swing and followed them all out. They cowered in the rubble in the hall for a few minutes and fixed their resolve to go back in. Second time round, everyone made their will save except the wizard, who headed back out into the hall. They started bashing with and smacking at him, while he hopped out of the pool and responded with random full-round attacks again. A rogue with a cure moderate wounds wand jumped around healing and getting in the occasional cause moderate damage. Out pops the crazy imp Hezzrack, who greeted Snapper amiably and was glad to see him playing with some new friends -- and then walked away (this was too much for the players who couldn't figure out what to do with such craziness in the midst of their toughest battle to date, and just watched him walk away). and the cowering wizard (who had just reached level 4) finally decided to summon an Earth Elemental who walked in and got in a couple of blows on his behalf. Finally, using the blunt side of his great sword, the raging fighter/barbarian who had been brought to zero HP twice, smashed his undead foe and the dragon bones collapsed onto the ground.
This has been a lot of fun to play. Thanks for the great adventure Christopher! Hezzrack and Neegla were compelling and fun to run, and the trip to the goblin cave was tricky and interesting. I certainly recommend anyone checking this one out to adapt to a Pathfinder Beginner Box game!