Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Bestiary 6 (PFRPG)

Dragon78 wrote:

Last I remember all Empyreal Lords are demi-gods and all demi-gods are CR26-30.

Yeah, pretty sure that's the rule, so to speak.

Well, there are some exceptions to this rule, and these would be the "demidemigods" - nascent demon lords (CR 25 Treerazer and CR 24 Nightripper), daemonic harbingers (CR 21 Zelishkar) and qlippoth lords (CR 24 Yamasoth).

At least, so far, these are the only demigod like outsiders capable of granting spells with CR bellow 26. And that's reasonable, as they are practically lesser versions of the stronger demigods from their plane.

If there are empyreal lords bellow CR 26, I'm guessing they are minor empyreal lords. None of the three confirmed in B6 are among the "lesser" list from CotR, and indeed there's no saying that the lesser lords have CR 21-25 or something like that.

Ah, here we are: page 293 of Bestiary 4. "All empyreal lords are good outsiders that are, at a minimum, CR 21." I'd be very surprised if Ragathiel turned out to be lower than 26, though. Just, y'know, throwing it out there.

Also, it's true that the "lesser" list in Chronicle of the Righteous doesn't designate that they're weaker. Cernunnos is on that list and he turned out to be CR 30.

It could be a misprint and they meant to say 26 instead of 21.

There has been a lot of evolution over time in how CR levels apply to demigods (and sub demigods like nascent demon lords) of various outsider races. Demons have a fairly established system separating demon lords and nascents into separate bands, but you don't see anything similar for dukes of hell and archdevils. Archdevil is more of a political rank than a CR signifier, dukes can be CR 28 uniques or CR 21. Malebranches seem low CR, too.

Daemonic Harbingers also seem to range from CR 21 up to levels where they can challenge a horseman to take their place.

Ah, here we are: page 293 of Bestiary 4. "All empyreal lords are good outsiders that are, at a minimum, CR 21." I'd be very surprised if Ragathiel turned out to be lower than 26, though. Just, y'know, throwing it out there.

Also, it's true that the "lesser" list in Chronicle of the Righteous doesn't designate that they're weaker. Cernunnos is on that list and he turned out to be CR 30.

Thanks for your contribution. Well, that is actually ok, as the empyreal lords are not as strictly divided as the demigods from the lower planes.

Rysky wrote:

Dragon78 wrote:

Last I remember all Empyreal Lords are demi-gods and all demi-gods are CR26-30.

Yeah, pretty sure that's the rule, so to speak.

Well, there are some exceptions to this rule, and these would be the "demidemigods" - nascent demon lords (CR 25 Treerazer and CR 24 Nightripper), daemonic harbingers (CR 21 Zelishkar) and qlippoth lords (CR 24 Yamasoth).

At least, so far, these are the only demigod like outsiders capable of granting spells with CR bellow 26. And that's reasonable, as they are practically lesser versions of the stronger demigods from their plane.

If there are empyreal lords bellow CR 26, I'm guessing they are minor empyreal lords. None of the three confirmed in B6 are among the "lesser" list from CotR, and indeed there's no saying that the lesser lords have CR 21-25 or something like that.

Nope; no exceptions. At least not yet. That's merely has a typo. An Empyreal Lord is, by defintion, a demigod in the CR 26 to CR 30 range. They are intended to be analoges to the Horsemen, demon lords, archdevils, Great Old Ones, and other demigods.

The CR 21-25 range is for quasi-deities, such as nascent demon lords, maelbranche, qlippoth lords, mythic characters with the divine source ability, and others.

Infernal dukes are the weirdos that cross that barrier; most of them are CR 21 to 25, but a few are higher than CR 25. Those who are above CR 25 are demigods and could, in theory, some day be an archdevil.

Nope; no exceptions. At least not yet. That's merely has a typo. An Empyreal Lord is, by defintion, a demigod in the CR 26 to CR 30 range. They are intended to be analoges to the Horsemen, demon lords, archdevils, Great Old Ones, and other demigods.

The CR 21-25 range is for quasi-deities, such as nascent demon lords, maelbranche, qlippoth lords, mythic characters with the divine source ability, and others.

Infernal dukes are the weirdos that cross that barrier; most of them are CR 21 to 25, but a few are higher than CR 25. Those who are above CR 25 are demigods and could, in theory, some day be an archdevil.

So now we can use the term quasi-deities for these lesser beings with a small spark of divinity. Thanks Mr. Jacobs! It's actually refreshing to know that there's no chance that Ragathiel (or any of the empyreal) is a CR 25 creature. =P

I can't express how much I appreciate when you Mr. Jacobs (and many other members of the staff) come here to clarify our doubts and dilemmas. (*-*)b

Didn't know Qlippoth Lords are only in CR21-25 range.

Didn't know Qlippoth Lords are only in CR21-25 range.

Well, they are said to equal nascent demon lords in power so makes sense

I suspect that there are more Demigods and Quasideities in the book that we don't know about. Think about it.

An average bestiary has about 300 monsters. Some are two-pagers, but there's usually few enough not to go too far below the 300 mark.

This bestiary has about 200 monsters, in order to accommodate Demigods.

The Demigods are, I assume, in addition to the usual set of two-page monsters, which I can speculate are the same in number as they usually are.

Each Demigod would remove one point from the 300 by having it's additional page.

There are 21 demigods known to be in the book. 300 minus 21 would be 279 creatures.

This means that there are still about 79 less creatures than average whose pages are unaccounted for.

More Demigods? Quasideities? Non-unique two-pagers?

I may seriously be overthinking this, as that would mean that half of the monsters in the book would be two-pagers, but it's possible.

I dunno about that. I think the rest is gonna be dedicated to lower-level things to give a more even spread of CRs. The high-level demigods are definitely a big feature of this book, but it's not a whole book about end-campaign bosses.

I mean, they haven't said anything about Qlippoth Lords or the like in this book, so I'd be extremely surprised to see them in here. I find it unlikely.

Just because they haven't said anything about a creature being in the book doesn't mean it will not be in there, after they want some surprises.

That is true enough. I would like some more Daemonic Harbingers...

I just want there to be more Aeons and Inevitables. That's all.

And, I suspect not, cause Paizo doesn't care about those creatures, but maybe we can get PDFs on "Aeons", "Proteans", "Inevitables" in the near future, since all the other outsiders were covered.

I personally think the rest of the monsters are gonna be CR 25 and bellow, with only 10 to 15 other monsters with CR 20-25, and even less with CR 26+.

It's just as PannicAtack said: a "spread of CR" is still really important for a besiary. Monsters like Krampus are still legendary foes, even they aren't god like beings.

In B5 we got a lot of monsters that had the potential to be even stronger than they already were - becoming god like. I could mention the Danava Titan and the Danava Pillar, or the Empyrean Angel and the Empyrean Paragons, the Anemos and the Elder Anemoi... I'm really expecting to see more creatures like that.

There's even the Wizard's Shackle, that can become the Archwizard's Shackle (One of my favorite monsters from B5).

What is getting me really anxious and worried is the Archdevils CR/Power hierarchy. I can't stop worrying that Geryon isn't going to be the second strongest or not even the third strongest of them.

In a ideal world, their CR hierarchy would be close to this:

Or maybe I'm underestimating some of them... Specially Barbatos, that freak...

Have faith, Sovereign. ^_^

Much as the Great Old Ones and demon lords of Pathfinder are the domain of Mr. Jacobs... I feel certain that F. Wesley Schneider, creator of Pathfinder's vision of Hell (and writer of that article), will be writing the stats for the archdevils.

Have faith, Sovereign. ^_^

Much as the Great Old Ones and demon lords of Pathfinder are the domain of Mr. Jacobs... I feel certain that F. Wesley Schneider, creator of Pathfinder's vision of Hell (and writer of that article), will be writing the stats for the archdevils.

Indeed, Kalindlara, I have that feeling to.

I didn't mean to sound as if I would be disappointed if something went in a different way from what I imagined. Just as with Arshea and Black Butterfly, it surprised me that the angel is a greater challenge (higher CR) than the azata, and it got me far more curious about Arshea - a character I wasn't that much interested in.

So, sure if Geryon isn't as powerful as I imagined, it simple means the more powerful Archdevils are as much or even more impressive than The Serpent, and I will be as amazed as I was with said article about Geryon. ;D

Gold dragon icon is appropriate for you sovereign. :)

Gold dragon icon is appropriate for you sovereign. :)

That's because I try to stay in character.

I am still not interested in Arshea regardless of the CR involved.

Personally I am more interested in wich Kaiju and old ones got into the book.

Yeah I totes need all the kaiju stated One day Ill do that destroy all monsters game.

Yeah I totes need all the kaiju stated One day Ill do that destroy all monsters game.

You could call it "Mogaru: Final Wars".

But, indeed, I'm also interested in the kaijus because... Why not?

Unless they make up some new ones, these are the kaiju known to exist that haven't been stated up yet.

Cimurlian
Ebeshra
Igroon
Mantraska
Shbloon
Lord Varklops
Queen Vorgozen
Yarthoon
Yorak
Zimivra

James Jacobs wrote:

Nope; no exceptions. At least not yet. That's merely has a typo. An Empyreal Lord is, by defintion, a demigod in the CR 26 to CR 30 range. They are intended to be analoges to the Horsemen, demon lords, archdevils, Great Old Ones, and other demigods.

The CR 21-25 range is for quasi-deities, such as nascent demon lords, maelbranche, qlippoth lords, mythic characters with the divine source ability, and others.

Infernal dukes are the weirdos that cross that barrier; most of them are CR 21 to 25, but a few are higher than CR 25. Those who are above CR 25 are demigods and could, in theory, some day be an archdevil.

So now we can use the term quasi-deities for these lesser beings with a small spark of divinity. Thanks Mr. Jacobs! It's actually refreshing to know that there's no chance that Ragathiel (or any of the empyreal) is a CR 25 creature. =P

I can't express how much I appreciate when you Mr. Jacobs (and many other members of the staff) come here to clarify our doubts and dilemmas. (*-*)b

Just a clarification question, do the Whore Queen fall in the quasi-deity category, or are they full fledged demi-gods? They are stated to be equal rank to the Infernal Dukes within Hell, but as you've stated individual Dukes can end up on either side. Thank you for your time.

I would love to get some art or at least a description of what each kaiju looks like. It would also be cool to find out were on Golarion they are each located. Of course I know that information wouldn't be in this book.

I am not James Jacobs, but I recall that elsewhere the Whore Queens were all stated to be at a demigod (CR 25+) level of power.

So....still no word as to if Ushers are included in this volume ???

Actually they are outer planar based. We do not know what they called as a group or the name of each type.

Hmmm...well, it says up in the product's description, "dragons from Heaven", so, maybe dragons based on heavenly virtues?

I am still not interested in Arshea regardless of the CR involved.

That's okay. The rest of us are. :P

I am not James Jacobs, but I recall that elsewhere the Whore Queens were all stated to be at a demigod (CR 25+) level of power.

Oooo...it would rock to see Ardad Lili and the other three Whore Queens stated up. :D

I really wish that I had thought of these before they went to the printer.

Tolkien's Watcher in the Water (from the Fellowship of the Ring) and Maupassant's Horla (from The Horla)

The Gold Sovereign wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Nope; no exceptions. At least not yet. That's merely has a typo. An Empyreal Lord is, by defintion, a demigod in the CR 26 to CR 30 range. They are intended to be analoges to the Horsemen, demon lords, archdevils, Great Old Ones, and other demigods.

The CR 21-25 range is for quasi-deities, such as nascent demon lords, maelbranche, qlippoth lords, mythic characters with the divine source ability, and others.

Infernal dukes are the weirdos that cross that barrier; most of them are CR 21 to 25, but a few are higher than CR 25. Those who are above CR 25 are demigods and could, in theory, some day be an archdevil.

So now we can use the term quasi-deities for these lesser beings with a small spark of divinity. Thanks Mr. Jacobs! It's actually refreshing to know that there's no chance that Ragathiel (or any of the empyreal) is a CR 25 creature. =P

I can't express how much I appreciate when you Mr. Jacobs (and many other members of the staff) come here to clarify our doubts and dilemmas. (*-*)b

Just a clarification question, do the Whore Queen fall in the quasi-deity category, or are they full fledged demi-gods? They are stated to be equal rank to the Infernal Dukes within Hell, but as you've stated individual Dukes can end up on either side. Thank you for your time.

They are demigods. So, CR 26–30. Same tier of power as Archdevils. Also, we're in the process of transitioning their name to "Queens of the Night," which is the group that they call themselves rather than deferring to the name "Whore Queens" which is the name the misogynistic archdevils refer to them as. That said, they don't have stats in this book.

Wes did not write the Archdevil stats in Bestiary 6, but rest assured they're plenty powerful. As for their CRs, you can expect the ones who rule upper layers of Hell to be less powerful than those who rule lower layers of hell. AKA: Mephistopheles is the most powerful of the arch devils, and the rest descend from him in power... although not necessarily all the way down to CR 26...

So....still no word as to if Ushers are included in this volume ???

They are not. We haven't yet gotten a good point to do more with them yet. Maybe some day.

I really wish that I had thought of these before they went to the printer.

Tolkien's Watcher in the Water (from the Fellowship of the Ring) and Maupassant's Horla (from The Horla)

The watcher is not in the public domain, so we can't use it. Use a kraken instead.

As for the horla, I've been trying to get it into a bestiary more or less since Bestiary 2. Turns out, when I'm in charge of a bestiary, I don't have to worry about the horla getting left behind. AKA: The horla is in Bestiary 6.

They are demigods. So, CR 26–30. Same tier of power as Archdevils. Also, we're in the process of transitioning their name to "Queens of the Night," which is the group that they call themselves rather than deferring to the name "Whore Queens" which is the name the misogynistic archdevils refer to them as. That said, they don't have stats in this book.

Queens of the Night huh? That sounds too First Worldish for my taste. I think I'll stick with "Queens of Hell", "Princesses of Hell" or "Queens of the Damned" when it comes to my campaign. Still, glad your changing their name. The title Whore Queens is kinda offense to female players of the game.

Also, we're in the process of transitioning their name to "Queens of the Night," which is the group that they call themselves rather than deferring to the name "Whore Queens" which is the name the misogynistic archdevils refer to them as.

O.O

SQUUUUUUUUUEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

ThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyouTHANKYOU!

*hugs the T-Rex*

Quote:

They are demigods. So, CR 26–30. Same tier of power as Archdevils. Also, we're in the process of transitioning their name to "Queens of the Night," which is the group that they call themselves rather than deferring to the name "Whore Queens" which is the name the misogynistic archdevils refer to them as. That said, they don't have stats in this book.

Queens of the Night huh? That sounds too First Worldish for my taste. I think I'll stick with "Queens of Hell", "Princesses of Hell" or "Queens of the Damned" when it comes to my campaign. Still, glad your changing their name. The title Whore Queens is kinda offense to female players of the game.

Endorse, "night" doesn't have any particular association with Hell or Devils versus any number of competing evil factions.

Queens of the Night certainly has a hellish connection to me

Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!

Berselius wrote:

Quote:

They are demigods. So, CR 26–30. Same tier of power as Archdevils. Also, we're in the process of transitioning their name to "Queens of the Night," which is the group that they call themselves rather than deferring to the name "Whore Queens" which is the name the misogynistic archdevils refer to them as. That said, they don't have stats in this book.

Queens of the Night huh? That sounds too First Worldish for my taste. I think I'll stick with "Queens of Hell", "Princesses of Hell" or "Queens of the Damned" when it comes to my campaign. Still, glad your changing their name. The title Whore Queens is kinda offense to female players of the game.

Endorse, "night" doesn't have any particular association with Hell or Devils versus any number of competing evil factions.

The ladies have decided that associating themselves with brimstone, the colour red, horns, male dominance and goat hooves is so 4500s and are actively rebranding in order to expand onto new markets and leverage their core corporate competencies in a crowded environment of high speed, high yield pure evil.

James Jacobs wrote:

Also, we're in the process of transitioning their name to "Queens of the Night," which is the group that they call themselves rather than deferring to the name "Whore Queens" which is the name the misogynistic archdevils refer to them as.

O.O

SQUUUUUUUUUEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

ThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyouTHANKYOU!

*hugs the T-Rex*

Let's celebrate!

Quote:

They are demigods. So, CR 26–30. Same tier of power as Archdevils. Also, we're in the process of transitioning their name to "Queens of the Night," which is the group that they call themselves rather than deferring to the name "Whore Queens" which is the name the misogynistic archdevils refer to them as. That said, they don't have stats in this book.

Queens of the Night huh? That sounds too First Worldish for my taste. I think I'll stick with "Queens of Hell", "Princesses of Hell" or "Queens of the Damned" when it comes to my campaign. Still, glad your changing their name. The title Whore Queens is kinda offense to female players of the game.

For what it's worth, "Queens of the Night" are playing somewhat with the implications in "Prince of [b]Darkness[b]." Night and darkness have long been associated with Hell. For example, all devils can see in darkness. It's pretty on-point as far as I'm concerned... but that said, feel free to call them what you want in your game.

They're the Queens of the Night officially going forward though.

I liked "Angels of Vengeance" myself.

Still, can't complain.

Plausible Pseudonym wrote:

Endorse, "night" doesn't have any particular association with Hell or Devils versus any number of competing evil factions.

The ladies have decided that associating themselves with brimstone, the colour red, horns, male dominance and goat hooves is so 4500s and are actively rebranding in order to expand onto new markets and leverage their core corporate competencies in a crowded environment of high speed, high yield pure evil.

It's a crowded market space with too many competitors for mind share. They need to leverage the core competencies to win consumer loyalty, not throw away their brand identity to start from scratch against entrenched incumbents who will tie them up in intellectual property lawsuits. None of them even have Darkness as a domain, I don't think it will pass muster with focus groups.

I like where your head's at, Pseudonym. Are you sure you're not one of ours?

Wes did not write the Archdevil stats in Bestiary 6, but rest assured they're plenty powerful. As for their CRs, you can expect the ones who rule upper layers of Hell to be less powerful than those who rule lower layers of hell. AKA: Mephistopheles is the most powerful of the arch devils, and the rest descend from him in power... Although not necessarily all the way down to CR 26...

Firstly, thanks again for your replies Mr. JJ.

I'm really anxious to see how powerful Mephistopheles is, as the strongest Archdevil, and I'm already satisfied to know none of them are bellow CR 27. To hold their position against the Dukes of Hell and also fight the celestial forces, indeed they would need to be plenty powerful.

This leaves Geryon with CR 28-29, depending if Mephistopheles is the only CR 30 Archdevils, a position I supposed The Lord of Flies would also hold. As there are eight of them, things could go perfectly like this: 27 Barbatos, 27 Dispater, 28 Mammon, 28 Belial, 29 Geryon, 29 Moloch, 30 Baalzebul, 30 Mephistopheles.

AmbassadoroftheDominion wrote:

I really wish that I had thought of these before they went to the printer.

Tolkien's Watcher in the Water (from the Fellowship of the Ring) and Maupassant's Horla (from The Horla)

The watcher is not in the public domain, so we can't use it. Use a kraken instead.

As for the horla, I've been trying to get it into a bestiary more or less since Bestiary 2. Turns out, when I'm in charge of a bestiary, I don't have to worry about the horla getting left behind. AKA: The horla is in Bestiary 6.

Horla? NICE I like me some nice public domain horror lit monsters

I am wrapping reading up the last collected annotated volume of Clark Ashton Smith's short stories. Too bad the more of his work isn't in public Domain. The Tomb Spawn in particular has a couple of creatures that would be perfect for this bestiary.

I liked "Angels of Vengeance" myself.

Still, can't complain.

They're not angels and I'd rather not confuse things by calling them that. Furthermore, they're not all about vengeance.

James Jacobs wrote:

Wes did not write the Archdevil stats in Bestiary 6, but rest assured they're plenty powerful. As for their CRs, you can expect the ones who rule upper layers of Hell to be less powerful than those who rule lower layers of hell. AKA: Mephistopheles is the most powerful of the arch devils, and the rest descend from him in power... Although not necessarily all the way down to CR 26...

Firstly, thanks again for your replies Mr. JJ.

I'm really anxious to see how powerful Mephistopheles is, as the strongest Archdevil, and I'm already satisfied to know none of them are bellow CR 27. To hold their position against the Dukes of Hell and also fight the celestial forces, indeed they would need to be plenty powerful.

This leaves Geryon with CR 28-29, depending if Mephistopheles is the only CR 30 Archdevils, a position I supposed The Lord of Flies would also hold. As there are eight of them, things could go perfectly like this: 27 Barbatos, 27 Dispater, 28 Mammon, 28 Belial, 29 Geryon, 29 Moloch, 30 Baalzebul, 30 Mephistopheles.

That's a lot of assumptioning you're making there... but you'll find out what the exact CR breakdown is when the book's out in a few months! :-)

Ardad Lili wrote:

I liked "Angels of Vengeance" myself.

Still, can't complain.

They're not angels and I'd rather not confuse things by calling them that. Furthermore, they're not all about vengeance.

Just because I liked it doesn't mean it was the right call. ^_^

James Jacobs wrote:

AmbassadoroftheDominion wrote:

I really wish that I had thought of these before they went to the printer.

Tolkien's Watcher in the Water (from the Fellowship of the Ring) and Maupassant's Horla (from The Horla)

The watcher is not in the public domain, so we can't use it. Use a kraken instead.

As for the horla, I've been trying to get it into a bestiary more or less since Bestiary 2. Turns out, when I'm in charge of a bestiary, I don't have to worry about the horla getting left behind. AKA: The horla is in Bestiary 6.

Horla? NICE I like me some nice public domain horror lit monsters

I am wrapping reading up the last collected annotated volume of Clark Ashton Smith's short stories. Too bad the more of his work isn't in public Domain. The Tomb Spawn in particular has a couple of creatures that would be perfect for this bestiary.

While it's not in the public domain, we did work a deal with Chaosium to stat up several of his creatures in the Strange Aeons adventure path recently. No tomb spawn, but there are formless spawn in that AP...

Also, there's a pretty scary monster called the "Whisperer" which is fully inspired by Algernon Blackwood's "The Willows." And plenty of Lovecraft critters as well. Monsters from literary sources are often my favorites, and it's always a delight to get them in print as creatures for Pathfinder.