I ordered The Slumbering Tsar saga last night and have been browsing through the pdf this morning in anticipation of starting a long-running campaign. Tons of questions occurred to me along with the realization that many more would likely surface, so I figured I'd post here in the hopes that those experienced with the campaign could offer some advice:
1) Is there a recommended adventure or adventures to preface ST, something in the 2nd - 6th level range?
2) Are there any recommended party roles or skill sets (face skills, knowledge skills, trapfinding) that are especially important throughout the campaign or perhaps less necessary than in other adventures?
3) It seems like a tremendous amount of material for leveling 6th - 20th. In the past we've always had generic leveling at pre-determined times and places without tracking individual xp, is that an option in ST?
4) In the past we've played almost exclusively through Paizo AP's and had great success - this is our first venture into 3rd party material; are there any substantive differences in design or play-style that I should be aware of?
5) I've chronicled our adventures in the past through campaign journals. Would there be any interest on this site for something similar or is there enough of that going around already?
One of the things I'm working with the players on right now are their character builds - we tend to do it as a group for both RP and mechanical purposes, rather than end up with a hodge-podge of people who have no reason to be together and fail to properly compliment one another in abilities or skill sets. Initial thoughts are a Cleric (Glory & Healing domains) who will serve as the leader of the group, a pair of Paladins (Oath of Vengeance & Sacred Shield) beholden to her and then another pair who signed on due to a desire to explore the site, an archer Bard (Arcane Duelist) and a trapfinding Bard (Archeologist). The group looks to be heavy on both buffs and healing - every character can heal - but a little light on damage and the kind of utility spells a Wizard or Sorcerer might have available. I figure UMD and scrolls can serve to minimize the latter a bit, but I don't really know fully yet what challenges the PC's will be facing.
Its early on and no one is married to anything just yet, so any advice would be much appreciated - thanks in advance!
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Definitely check out the "The Slumbering Tsar - Starting, DM Set up, Questions, and Advice" thread if you have not already. Ton of useful information in there.
I've read most of ST and plan on running it, but here's my take:
1. Stoneheart Valley from FGG is the easiest to use, essentially a PF version of Wizard's Amulet, Crucible of Freya, and The Tomb of Abysthor.
2. I'd say the 3 most useful classes would be paladin, cleric, arcane caster. There's also a number of traps too, but the challenge of some of the encounters pushes those 3 up.
3. Generic levelling may be tougher with ST since the style of this campaign is very much a sandbox, and it will be hard to level them up based on milestones because the party can do things in any order. You will definitely want them to be high enough when tackling Tsar itself (Malerix can do that for you though!)
4. The biggest difference is in the sandbox design. If your players are used to having the plot hook dangled in front of them, they may be unsure how to proceed. It's almost an essential for the DM to seed a number of plot hints and character motivations prior to starting ST. If you went with Stoneheart Valley as the prelude, I would recommend to start dropping some hints and rumors at that stage to prod them towards Tsar.
5. I would absolutely love to read campaign journals on Tsar. Since the design is so wide open, seeing what other players have done will really be useful when I eventually run it.
The lack of a wizard type would be the only concern I'd see with those classes.
Definitely check out the "The Slumbering Tsar - Starting, DM Set up, Questions, and Advice" thread if you have not already. Ton of useful information in there.
I've read most of ST and plan on running it, but here's my take:
1. Stoneheart Valley from FGG is the easiest to use, essentially a PF version of Wizard's Amulet, Crucible of Freya, and The Tomb of Abysthor.
2. I'd say the 3 most useful classes would be paladin, cleric, arcane caster. There's also a number of traps too, but the challenge of some of the encounters pushes those 3 up.
3. Generic levelling may be tougher with ST since the style of this campaign is very much a sandbox, and it will be hard to level them up based on milestones because the party can do things in any order. You will definitely want them to be high enough when tackling Tsar itself (Malerix can do that for you though!)
4. The biggest difference is in the sandbox design. If your players are used to having the plot hook dangled in front of them, they may be unsure how to proceed. It's almost an essential for the DM to seed a number of plot hints and character motivations prior to starting ST. If you went with Stoneheart Valley as the prelude, I would recommend to start dropping some hints and rumors at that stage to prod them towards Tsar.
5. I would absolutely love to read campaign journals on Tsar. Since the design is so wide open, seeing what other players have done will really be useful when I eventually run it.
The lack of a wizard type would be the only concern I'd see with those classes.
I browsed through that thread and found tons of specifics being discussed that I'm nowhere near ready to address yet (though I bookmarked it for later reference).
Sandboxy is going to be new for me too - I've always run campaigns which were fairly linear in nature, though with 'sandboxy' sections (like the piracy in Skull n Shackles). Looks like experience-based leveling is going to be tough as we're all very out of practice - are the areas at least broken up by degrees of difficulty? I could string together plot devices to lead them from one area to another if so... and addressing that, you suggest seeding 'plot hints' - is there a specific overall plot, then, a chief villain the group works towards that is revealed over time or is it just a lot of random running around from one area to the next?
Is there anything in particular that a Wizard offers which you believe may be missed - the ability to Teleport or to deal direct, energy-based damage for instance?
Never hit one of our adventures without a cleric. Not a hybrid or a druid...a cleric.
Its ironic that you say that - our parties often go very light on healing, sometimes with just a Bard to handle the duties, and rely on strong builds and smart play to make up the difference. This will be the first on-going campaign where we've ever had someone run a Cleric before - no one likes prepared casters, but we've got a new player who enjoys running non-combat type support characters. In fact, it looks like we're going VERY heavy on healing and buffs if this group make-up holds up:
Human 20th level Cleric (Glory-Heroism & Healing-Restoration Domains)
Human 20th level Paladin (Oath of Vengeance - Reach TH weapon)
Human 20th level Paladin (Sacred Shield - Sword & Board)
Human 18th level Arcane Duelist / 2nd level Lore Warden (Archer with Snapshot feats)
Halfling 6th level Archeologist / 2nd level Halfling Opportunist / 12th level Lore Warden (TWF focusing on Dirty Tricks and scouting/trapfinding)
The only thing I'm really worried about is the party's ability to deal burst damage or the need for high-level Arcane spells like Teleport...
Thanks for chiming in, we're all very interested in what the campaign will hold in store as its our first foray into your products.
@ Wiggz
Looking at your post it seems like your players are starting at 20th level. Is that correct or are those their anticipated outcomes?
Re levels of difficulty: It's more dangerous in Tsar than out in The Desolation but there are no zones that are stacked with encounters that are safer than other zones.
Bill warned about the need for a cleric - I concur. I add and strongly emphasize that survival skills can also be critical in the desolation. Read bone storms and acid rain.
Finally, the biggest difference between this and one of the Paizo AP's is that the difficulty level is not tailored to the expected character level and players need to be prepared to run away when they encounter something nasty.
Cheers,
Geo
@ Wiggz
Looking at your post it seems like your players are starting at 20th level. Is that correct or are those their anticipated outcomes?
Re levels of difficulty: It's more dangerous in Tsar than out in The Desolation but there are no zones that are stacked with encounters that are safer than other zones.
Bill warned about the need for a cleric - I concur. I add and strongly emphasize that survival skills can also be critical in the desolation. Read bone storms and acid rain.
Finally, the biggest difference between this and one of the Paizo AP's is that the difficulty level is not tailored to the expected character level and players need to be prepared to run away when they encounter something nasty.
Cheers,
Geo
Thanks again for the response - all of this is new territory for me.
No, the levels just indicate what they plan to eventually be when they 'grow up' - we always pre-plan our builds out to their logical conclusion to avoid taking 'bad' or redundant feats. They will be starting at the recommended levels.
Survival skills... like specifically the skill Survival? At the moment it doesn't look like anyone is planning on taking that. Good advice.
Our party has never had any problem running away or holding back to strategize... but too, I would never throw a 3rd level party into a section of an AP designed for 8th level characters and then just expect them to run away from everything they face (or even to know they should). That's the kind of dynamic I'm hoping to avoid. In the past when they've run its been due to poor tactical positioning or being unexpectedly outnumbered, not because the Human they thought was a 5th level Fighter is really a 17th level Fighter even though there was no way they could have possibly known that...
Definitely the skill survival. (Just read about a bone storm.)
I started my group at 7th level (6 players) they came up with backstories and had all been hired and equipped by a rich family in exchange for information and a share of the loot. Your group looks like it may have been hired by one or more Churches. There are two dieties from Frog God games that are prevalent in the adventure and these would work well (Muir and....can't recall). I've didn't want to deal with introducing deities that are different from previous campaigns so I've substituted Saranrae and Iomedae.
I'd recommend having each of them role up a 2nd character c/w backstory. It's a worthwhile exercise for keeping the game moving and setting the tone for the level of lethality.
Definitely the skill survival. (Just read about a bone storm.)
I started my group at 7th level (6 players) they came up with backstories and had all been hired and equipped by a rich family in exchange for information and a share of the loot. Your group looks like it may have been hired by one or more Churches. There are two dieties from Frog God games that are prevalent in the adventure and these would work well (Muir and....can't recall). I've didn't want to deal with introducing deities that are different from previous campaigns so I've substituted Saranrae and Iomedae.
I'd recommend having each of them role up a 2nd character c/w backstory. It's a worthwhile exercise for keeping the game moving and setting the tone for the level of lethality.
We've never pre-prepared 'back-up' characters before, but from the snippets I've read by other posters, that may well be wise advice. I'm wondering if the role taken by the Arcane Duelist might be better filled by someone of the Ranger persuasion.
The rough backstory we're working on is the Cleric is basically being 'inspired' (if not directed) by her deity to seek out the evil that lurks within the Slumbering Tsar, the two Paladins sworn to protect her and see her noble quest through. The other two, the Halfling and the Arcane Duelist, are adventuring companions from an organization similar to the Pathfinder Society, drawn by curiosity, thrill-seeking and a desire to discover what lurks in the remains of the great city. I anticipate there being times when the two groups differ in their priorities and inter-party conflict (non-violent) may arise.
Again, that's very rough, but we're not making a strong effort to make the campaign 'fit' any particular setting, either Golarion or the world Frog God games uses. We've got the Paizo AP's for that, this one is being run strictly regional and sticking as much to the campaign information presented in the volumous tome as possible.
@ Wiggz,
It sounds like the basics are all covered.
Take a look at at the 50+1 as it might provide you with additional hooks (player character ancestors?).
I'm trying to increase the degree to which the gods are playing a part in our campaign. Each of the characters was granted a boon (equivalent to a Hero Point in the APG with the cheat death option removed) by their god for taking on the quest. There are also a number of points in the campaign where it is appropriate for character actions to result in a boon for good deeds.
Best Laid plans of mice and men and all. This is a Frog God Game. Four of those characters might be dead before you ever reach the camp so I would warn the players to be flexible about long term plans. One thing Greg is very clear about Tsar, characters will die. It would be difficult to not use XP for level progression here. This is anything but an AP, YEAH! This is nitty gritty down and dirty fight what comes up and pray you don't die roll playing! If it appears too powerful, you need to learn to cut your losses and run!
Best Laid plans of mice and men and all. This is a Frog God Game. Four of those characters might be dead before you ever reach the camp so I would warn the players to be flexible about long term plans. One thing Greg is very clear about Tsar, characters will die. It would be difficult to not use XP for level progression here. This is anything but an AP, YEAH! This is nitty gritty down and dirty fight what comes up and pray you don't die roll playing! If it appears too powerful, you need to learn to cut your losses and run!
This will be our first Frog God game and I'll admit we're intrigued by the challenge. By deliberate choice this will be one of our tougher parties to kill - our two front-liners are capable of swift action heals and condition removal, we'll have a Sacred Shield and a channeling Cleric with the Healing Domain as well as both Heroism buffs and Bardic buffs so we feel pretty good - though I still worry a bit about offensive firepower... but you're right about the best laid plans. Generally speaking, this group is more about role-playing than just surviving a meat-grinder but I don't know enough about ST to fairly call it that yet.
Its the XP-based leveling and the lack of a clear path to follow which seems the most troubling. Sounds like there will have to be more prep from the GM side of things than required for Paizo AP's. That'll be fine though - one of the reasons we like AP's is they free up the GM (whether its me or my wife) to really customize things and slip in their own side quests and whatnot, it sounds like ST gives you all the tools and resources you need to do just that.
I've yet to receive the book, and I've only had time to browse the pdf - I'm sure I'll have more questions and comments once I educate myself a bit more. Once we get started I'll post character builds and campaign updates somewhere should anyone be curious how it goes.
If the party needs a 'path' to follow, they can hire either the Ranger Guides or Clantock's Furious Fourteen. My group started with that, then started 'combing the desert' on their own. Sprinkling various hints, clues, and divine missions has helped a lot as well.
Here's my (incomplete) Player's Guide for my own campaign: LINK
It includes some Campaign Traits, some of which grant Survival as a class skill (so you wouldn't need to trade out classes just for that). It does have the "North" arrow turned 180°, because I placed Tsar on the west side of the World's End Mountains in Taldor.
Enjoy!
I'd love to read another campaign journal for ST, it gives me ideas for my own game.
As far as the difficulty we are 27 games in with 17 deaths, mostly raise-deadable. I think I'm getting a steady stream of at least one death every other session, sometimes more if they get in way over their heads. I typically run the adventure straight out of the book, but I read into the text a lot. Ie. The area has bad weather and severe storms, so I use a modified weather chart in addition to the encounter tables that include some abnormal bad weather encounters.
Question 2: Paladin, Ranger or Druid, and Cleric minimum. You can probably get by without a cleric for a while, but later its a requirement my group used up stacks of Cure Light Wounds Wands. Necessary things: Survival, Tiny Hut, Create Water (somewhat), High HP, Great Fortitude Saves, Darkvision, Low Light Vision, Paladin Mercy Remove Disease, Blunt Weapons
Good things: High Perception, Speak With Dead, Paladin Mercy Remove Fatigue, Secure Shelter, Something with Ghost Touch, Undead Bane Weapons, Knowledge History/Nobility, Potions of Fly/Invisibility
Unnecessary things: Reflex Saves (so far), Swim (except that one time), Find/Detect Traps (outside of Tsar), Anti-Devil gear/abilities
Question 4: It's a lot like Kingmaker without the 15 minute adventuring day. I would highly suggest enforcing the roll every 3 hours on encounter tables, keeps the game hard.
I echo James' sentiment about reading others campaign journals. Have been reading James' for awhile now. Although I think he has better luck than I do with the encounter table. I do have to admit that some times I let it go when I feel the players have had enough for the day.
It's my inner sadist screaming for the blood of the pc's. If they overextend themselves they are in for a world of hurt.
James I think your players are more loyal than mine. If I kill them too often they have a tendency to start running like scared little girls, especially the newer players! Still, I am at 14 dead at around 30ish sessions.
James I think your players are more loyal than mine. If I kill them too often they have a tendency to start running like scared little girls, especially the newer players! Still, I am at 14 dead at around 30ish sessions.
Just to contrast with you guys, through Skull n' Shackles, Rise of the Runelords and now through book 4 of Wrath of the Righteous, we've seen one death total as a group. Some of that has to do with well-built, well-run characters... and some of that has to do with GM'ing style and philosophy - as an RP-intense group, a lot of love and time is put into these characters, having them die isn't fun for anyone.
With that said, if everyone signs on for a RP-lite (or so it seems) power game where deaths are to be expected, if they know what they're getting into and are okay with it, then I don't expect there to be any issues.
Yeah our Skulls & Shackles game is on book 2 with no deaths and is currently on hold. Too much water for them I think and a bad night of the week. Hoping to get it restarted some time.
Yeah our Skulls & Shackles game is on book 2 with no deaths and is currently on hold. Too much water for them I think and a bad night of the week. Hoping to get it restarted some time.
My wife (Story Archer on these boards) ran us through that and it remains the best campaign we've ever played. Feel free to drop her a line if you want to chat it up sometime.
I have read a lot of her posts on S&S. I will contact her when I get the game up and running again. For now it is a pick up game.
There's nothing to say that Tsar can't be RP heavy... just bear in mind that it is incredibly deadly. It has a different philosophy behind it - one where characters weren't usually planned out from start to fin. More along the lines of scraping and clawing to stay alive.
Yeah... bring backups. :)
Planning characters? What'sthat? I playmycharacters level by level. Too much can happen in between.
Exactly.
Planning the progression of a character is more important if your character's focus is combat and you need to get your base feats.
The deadliness of Tsar just makes it easier to revise your plans.
@dmstrikes It is true about not wandering willy nilly. They should have some sort of plan of where they are going to go even if it is only the general area at first. Turning isn't as a big deal in pathfinder as long as they can channel to harm undead. Having multiple sources of healing is not a bad idea either.
One of the things that I like about Tsar (and RA, and pretty much all of FGG's material) is the random encounters. They are encouraged much more than you will be used to in more modern style adventures - similar to older editions. I personally think it's a good thing. But some players will be in for a shock when they find they've blasted past their 'normal' four encounter per day paradigm (and may not have even gotten to their goal yet). There's a lot more thinking out of the box involved. Save resources and avoid a combat? Not necessarily normal pathfinder player's mentality. PC's can very quickly find themselves in over their heads. ST is not set up like a video game where the world levels with you. If you travel straight to the Gates of Tsar, you're going to get your butts handed to you... but the option is there for the PC's to get in over their heads. They need to make the determination where is "safe"... well... "safer".
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Like everything in pathfinder it is about understanding your group at the table. After reading this I knew that my group and I would not enjoy the random encounters as written (1 every three hours and after 3 rounds of combat). Also having to discover the entire map in this fashion would not be fun for them. My solution was one random per day. Furthermore the party came up with a role playing solution with the reclaimers to get a basic map of the desolation and its keyed encounter areas.
We are level 8 and having fun! Soon the party is going to attempt to tame the desolation via the kingdom building rules. The role playing opportunities from this decision will be endless.
To each his own Zach, but just understand that you are changing the basic dynamic of the campaign. If you want to make it easy on them go right ahead.
The "rule of cool" applies here as much as it does anywhere else. Some groups crave difficulties that force them to think outside the box and some do not.
If you and your group are having fun, you are doing it right. Tailoring campaigns for your game group is an important skill every GM can benefit by having in their toolbox.
Of course, if you make ST easier than written for your players and they comment on how easy things are, you can always up the difficulty a notch. :)
"Making it easy on them" defeats the point.
If the area isn't as deadly as written, what's the point of the adventure? Saying you "completed" an adventure, but the GM nerfs the challenge, isn't completing the adventure...if Tsar is "too deadly" maybe it's not for your group?
Just my 2cp, YMMV.
Skeeter,
I love your books, but I gotta get behind Dark Sasha and Zach. The games/stories/adventures are only good if people are having fun. And some groups won’t have fun with certain adventures played out of the package.
As a guy running Rappan Athuk for 1+ years with a solid group of 3 close friends, we’re having a blast, but we’re playing it our own way. So, more power to Wiggz to shape the story you guys wrote to fit his own gaming style. I know I’m gonna keep buying your books, but will also keep making them my own!
Jeff…
I'm not a fan of removing the inherent challenge of old-school flavor, even in pathfinder games (probably why I enjoy S&W more). But I think Skeeter has the right of it here. That's like saying, 'yeah, Vault of the Drow was easy', but the the DM took away all the drow special abilities. You didn't really beat it.
I know what you mean Skeeter and that is my preference also, but not everyone is that way I guess. Personally I keep a death count up on a big white board, RA is still in the lead over Tsar but not by much!
I want to be clear that in my own campaign, I have a high death count and we only just started. I like it when my players have to use their minds not their character builds to defeat challenges.
I don't like it when there is no threat of dying and no risk in games I play rather than GM. To me it gets boring. But I do understand not all groups can work this way.
"Making it easy on them" defeats the point.
If the area isn't as deadly as written, what's the point of the adventure? Saying you "completed" an adventure, but the GM nerfs the challenge, isn't completing the adventure...if Tsar is "too deadly" maybe it's not for your group?
Just my 2cp, YMMV.
There is a big, BIG difference between 'making it easy' and making the challenge appropriate to the character's abilities. I'll often increase or decrease difficulties of an encounter on the fly based on how much of a challenge it presents to my PC's (and extra wave or two of mooks, the remaining bad guys flee, etc.).
There is no challenge, no special merit to simply wandering into an area where you are hopelessly outmatched, getting your asses handed to you and then having to start with new characters. That's not fun for anyone I know and, in my book, is a wasted encounter if not a wasted evening.
I've yet to receive the book, but more and more this campaign is sounding like some sort of video game where you enter into it with an unlimited number of lives (or in this case, an unlimited number of characters), wander around killing whatever you see until something kills you instead and then rebooting to pick up where you left off. Little to no RP or over-reaching story-arc beyond 'go into this place because its really dangerous and see how many deaths it takes you to get through it'.
If that's the case, why not just spend an evening playing Diablo?
I'm really hoping it won't require as much re-writing or dissecting as its sounding like to make it appropriate for my group, especially considering how much lettuce I dropped on it.
I want to be clear that in my own campaign, I have a high death count and we only just started. I like it when my players have to use their minds not their character builds to defeat challenges.
I don't like it when there is no threat of dying and no risk in games I play rather than GM. To me it gets boring. But I do understand not all groups can work this way.
Just different approaches and priorities. For my group its always been about ROLE-playing, not ROLL-playing... about the cooperative story-telling of a grand epic with dramatic moments both in and out of combat, rather than 'winning the game' through the simple accumulation of treasure and body counts.
This is not a video game in that you, the GM, controls the information the party receives and the incentives they have to explore and possibly defeat the evil that permeates the region.
The story(s) that come out of campaigns run in the Slumbering Tsar make it worth it to run. There are lots of hooks available to get players involved. Perhaps they are hired to find out what happened to a merchant caravan that attempted the Desolation and went missing.
It may be that when they find out what is going on in the Desolation, despite the difficulty, they will want to push on to the temple city. If you think your party needs lots of incentive, hand out lots of rumors and hints. Liberally use the tools that exist in the module for these or invent your own.
I suggest doing what you are doing now, read through it and find things that would exite you as a player and use those as starting points, plot hooks, or goals for your players.
I don't think you need to do anything extra, no major rewrites are necessary.
This is all just my own opinion, so take it for what that is worth. :)
Well, for me, the beauty of Tsar is that I don't have to change *anything*.
It's a pleasure to GM.
Many of the encounters the players have blown through. A few have blown through them (dread wraiths are vicious!), but all-in-all, it's a blast!
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"Making it easy on them" defeats the point.
If the area isn't as deadly as written, what's the point of the adventure? Saying you "completed" an adventure, but the GM nerfs the challenge, isn't completing the adventure...if Tsar is "too deadly" maybe it's not for your group?
Just my 2cp, YMMV.
The point is to have the most fun possible. For some it is the tactical component or the constant meat grinder. Not us, the relationship between player and GM should not be adversarial. As written I don't think are group would ever get to the plot that Greg built, instead we would endlessly tool in the random encounter tables, rebuild characters, etc. For me it is not about winning, we aren't keeping score against anyone but ourselves.
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I just wanted to say that expecting party deaths isn't the same as RP-lite. You can go RP-heavy and still have people die in tough environments.
It's not an either/or situation.
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"Making it easy on them" defeats the point.
If the area isn't as deadly as written, what's the point of the adventure? Saying you "completed" an adventure, but the GM nerfs the challenge, isn't completing the adventure...if Tsar is "too deadly" maybe it's not for your group?
Just my 2cp, YMMV.
There is a big, BIG difference between 'making it easy' and making the challenge appropriate to the character's abilities. I'll often increase or decrease difficulties of an encounter on the fly based on how much of a challenge it presents to my PC's (and extra wave or two of mooks, the remaining bad guys flee, etc.).
There is no challenge, no special merit to simply wandering into an area where you are hopelessly outmatched, getting your asses handed to you and then having to start with new characters. That's not fun for anyone I know and, in my book, is a wasted encounter if not a wasted evening.
I've yet to receive the book, but more and more this campaign is sounding like some sort of video game where you enter into it with an unlimited number of lives (or in this case, an unlimited number of characters), wander around killing whatever you see until something kills you instead and then rebooting to pick up where you left off. Little to no RP or over-reaching story-arc beyond 'go into this place because its really dangerous and see how many deaths it takes you to get through it'.
If that's the case, why not just spend an evening playing Diablo?
I'm really hoping it won't require as much re-writing or dissecting as its sounding like to make it appropriate for my group, especially considering how much lettuce I dropped on it.
You couldn't be more wrong in your assessment. Knowing when to avoid things that can kill you is on the player, not the DM. Only pitting the party up against level-appropriate encounters - and they aren't doing any scouting or being paranoid about a highly dangerous area - isn't very challenging.
Your insistence that your way is ROLE-playing and the other way is ROLL-playing - that there can't be roleplaying in a dangerous environment is... frankly... insulting.
As an FYI, in my game tonight my party was in the Grunge and some of them were complaining that they were only fighting pushover encounters. Sometimes that's the way the encounters come up and sometimes they are tougher. And yes, the party is 10-11th level.
The bottom line is... as a Frog God Games representative, I hope you can use our products in your home game, in a way that you and your friends enjoy your time together and have a blast. That's all we're looking for, and ultimately why we do this. You don't have to play like we play; you have to have fun, however that is. We will never tell you how you "have to play". That's for other companies out there. <to be clear, Im not suggesting Paizo, at all; but other companies>
On a personal side, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I would be VERY interested in hearing about your groups exploits though, if you are of a mind to share? :-)
SG
"Making it easy on them" defeats the point.
If the area isn't as deadly as written, what's the point of the adventure? Saying you "completed" an adventure, but the GM nerfs the challenge, isn't completing the adventure...if Tsar is "too deadly" maybe it's not for your group?
Just my 2cp, YMMV.
There is a big, BIG difference between 'making it easy' and making the challenge appropriate to the character's abilities. I'll often increase or decrease difficulties of an encounter on the fly based on how much of a challenge it presents to my PC's (and extra wave or two of mooks, the remaining bad guys flee, etc.).
There is no challenge, no special merit to simply wandering into an area where you are hopelessly outmatched, getting your asses handed to you and then having to start with new characters. That's not fun for anyone I know and, in my book, is a wasted encounter if not a wasted evening.
I've yet to receive the book, but more and more this campaign is sounding like some sort of video game where you enter into it with an unlimited number of lives (or in this case, an unlimited number of characters), wander around killing whatever you see until something kills you instead and then rebooting to pick up where you left off. Little to no RP or over-reaching story-arc beyond 'go into this place because its really dangerous and see how many deaths it takes you to get through it'.
If that's the case, why not just spend an evening playing Diablo?
I'm really hoping it won't require as much re-writing or dissecting as its sounding like to make it appropriate for my group, especially considering how much lettuce I dropped on it.
You couldn't be more wrong in your assessment. Knowing when to avoid things that can kill you is on the player, not the DM. Only pitting the party up against level-appropriate encounters - and they aren't doing any scouting or being paranoid about a highly dangerous area - isn't very challenging.
Your insistence that your way is ROLE-playing and the other way is ROLL-playing - that there can't be roleplaying in a dangerous environment is... frankly... insulting.
Well, I can't control what you choose to find insulting, but perhaps it might help if I clarified a few things:
1) There is role-playing and there is roll-playing, two extremes philosophically and neither are inherently wrong. Most games fall somewhere between them - my games a bit more the former than the latter. I'm not insisting anything, nor am I defining 'my way' as anything more than my way. Or should I say our way, as I'm speaking for the group as a whole.
2) I've made it clear that I haven't even received the campaign yet and as such I can't fairly judge it. The hopes and concerns I've expressed here are exactly that - hopes and concerns. Not judgements.
3) 'Knowing when to avoid things that can kill you is on the player'... well, can't pretty much anything kill you in theory? If that were the concept wouldn't all of these so-called adventurers play it safe and stay home? On the flip side, having certain knowledge of how your foes stack up against you mechanically, what their stats are in comparison to your own so that you can mathematically deduce if you are more or less likely to survive an encounter with them is exactly the sort of meta-gaming I'd prefer to avoid in our campaigns... and that's assuming of course that the threats are even the sort which can be meta-gamed - a human traveller is a human traveller until he reveals himself to be something more, and by then it may well be too late to make a difference.
Pitting the party against level-appropriate encounters is the very definition of challenging... too low of a CR and its pointless. Too high of a CR and its equally pointless. Facing foes that they have a legitimate chance of over-coming but doing so will require their best efforts is the only challenge worth engaging. Anyone who thinks paranoia is fun clearly has never spent two hours of a gaming session checking every ten feet for hidden traps while the rest of the party twiddles their thumbs.
4) If we undertake this campaign, there WILL be role-playing in it, regardless of how dangerous an environment it is. I've made that abundantly clear, so your assertion that I'm saying there can't be is obviously off base. My only question was how much of the adventure will I have to re-write to ensure that's the case - a little or a lot? Guess I'll have to wait and see.
Don't be insulted. So we generally prefer role-play over roll-play - if ST isn't the latter as you say, what possible reason would you have to be insulted?
The bottom line is... as a Frog God Games representative, I hope you can use our products in your home game, in a way that you and your friends enjoy your time together and have a blast. That's all we're looking for, and ultimately why we do this. You don't have to play like we play; you have to have fun, however that is. We will never tell you how you "have to play". That's for other companies out there. <to be clear, Im not suggesting Paizo, at all; but other companies>
On a personal side, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I would be VERY interested in hearing about your groups exploits though, if you are of a mind to share? :-)
SG
I'm still not even sure what it is we're disagreeing about, unless its that level-appropriate encounters somehow counts as 'making it easy on them' and thereby 'defeats the point'. Statements like that make me wonder what the point is, because I hate the idea of an adversarial relationship between the GM and his players.
Before I made the substantial financial commitment to pick this adventure up, I made an effort to find as many reviews of the product as I could, and across the board they were not just good, they were glowing. And this is from multiple sources, so I wouldn't discount the positive opinions as 'just the way the reviewer happens to like his games'. I'm very much hoping that we get to pursue this adventure and if we do I would be more than happy to share our experiences... and as has been pointed out by others, even if we don't get to play it through for whatever reason, there is such a wealth of encounters, tools and options made available that I'm certain I'll get more than my money's worth taking advantage of it piecemeal in other campaigns.
Wiggz, in reality the encounters are relatively "level appropriate" as long as the players go to where they should be going. The Ashen Waste is generally meant for six level 7 characters, Chaos Rift 8th, etc.... You will need to use rumors, NPCs, etc to steer the party in that direction. Yes, it is up to the players too to figure out where to and where not to go as many have said. IF they set out directly to the city it is not the fault of the writer or FGG style. Nothing really needs majorly changed to keep things in balance. The encounter tables are rough yes, but most of the encounters are pretty wimpy and just meant to keep the players on their toes or to get them to prepare for the Desolation properly in case of the many storms. Cutting them down will do a disservice to your players IMHO. Give them more credit than that for being able to adapt to the situation.
Wiggz, in reality the encounters are relatively "level appropriate" as long as the players go to where they should be going. The Ashen Waste is generally meant for six level 7 characters, Chaos Rift 8th, etc.... You will need to use rumors, NPCs, etc to steer the party in that direction. Yes, it is up to the players too to figure out where to and where not to go as many have said. IF they set out directly to the city it is not the fault of the writer or FGG style. Nothing really needs majorly changed to keep things in balance. The encounter tables are rough yes, but most of the encounters are pretty wimpy and just meant to keep the players on their toes or to get them to prepare for the Desolation properly in case of the many storms. Cutting them down will do a disservice to your players IMHO. Give them more credit than that for being able to adapt to the situation.
I'm definitely open to that. I can see the value in even lesser encounters draining resources. What I don't want is to have the game center more around repeated random encounters to the detriment of the over-all story arc.
I had a long talk with the prospective players and there's been some slight changes to the party make-up - we're still at five players though... would you recommend an NPC to fill that sixth slot or do you think five will be fine? I often have a +1 in the group to kind of serve as the GM's mouthpiece, red-herring, potential plot twist, etc. but we usually only play with four.
How is treasure distribution/magic availability? In our campaigns non-consumable magic items tend to be a bit rarer, a bit more powerful and are almost always customized. Divine magic isn't generally available as potions and divine scrolls and wands are usable only by someone of the same faith, meaning that they are rarely made available for purchase. Just a tweak that seemed like common sense to our group and they've got a few work-arounds in place.