I believe this is the subject of the 4th episode of the Pathfinder Chronicles podcast
As MerrikCale said, this is indeed one of the subjects of Pathfinder Chronicles Podcast Episode 4, which can be found here.
As far as requiring new rules, Warpath is seamless with Pathfinder. If you can play a Pathfinder combat round, you pretty much know how to play Warpath (there are no charts, for example). There are 4 new derived stats and a handful of new movement options (maneuvers). Overall, it's pretty simple, quick to learn, and even quicker to implement. But I've never read Cry Havoc (just a review of it), so I can't really compare it.
The podcast details it pretty well.
This is in response to the 2nd reviewer, miniaturepeddler, who had some questions:
The unit sizes are meant to be consistent. The base is 100 medium-sized creatures per unit (dismounted). This means if you scale the cards up to 1000 each, each square will then become 100 feet rather than 10. So, for your case of 1,000 vs. 200, if you were using that scale, you would have a unit card representing the 1,000 and a smaller unit card (perhaps even a miniature) to represent the 200. However, having such a large scale is meant for truly grand battles, like 100,000 vs. 100,000, not small-scaled warfare (a couple thousand versus a couple thousand).
Thanks, D_M!
Thanks, D_M!
That's a fair review; honestly, I was hoping for expansions to cover more of that ground (maybe it will happen some day!).
I'm glad you didn't take the review too hard, Hank - as mentioned, I really do like the basic mechanics, but as written, the book just lacks too much information to be of use for me.
If there one day will either be expansions or a revised edition, I'm going to write reviews for them too/reevaluate my review accordingly.
All the best,
Endzeitgeist
In the "Running a Campaign" portion there are a few references to "pay citizenry upkeep," however I don't see a description of what that is or how its calculated.
I'm currently running a Birthright VTT and we are going to give Warpath a try as a replacement for BR's War Cards system (which I find woefully inadequate).
Is there some place where this product is still being discussed actively? It is pretty rough straight out of the book but I think it has a very strong core so I will be modding it extensively if the players end up liking it.
Sorry for necroing this, but I recently got my hands on this book and I don't get it to make sense. I don't know what I'm doing wrong, but the formulas don't seem to make sense. What am I doing wrong?
Example units: 150 ogres and 200 orcs
Unit Strength: Number * HD.
Ogres: 150 * 4 = 600.
Orcs: 200 * 1 = 200.
Mass Rating: 10 * HD.
Ogres: 10 * 4 = 40.
Orcs: 10 * 1 = 10.
Unit Power: Unit Strength / Mass Rating. 60/ 40 = 5
Ogres: 600/40 = 15
Orcs: 200/10 = 20
Ogres attack: Greatclub +7, 15+2 = 17
Orcs attack: Falchion +5, 20+1 = 21
It doesn't seem right that such a small difference in numbers should make up for the orcs being CR 1/3 and the ogres being CR 3.
Also:
Unit Power: Strength/Mass =
(Number * HD) / (10 * HD) =
Number / 10
If Power is always 1/10 of number of troops, why doesn't the book says so? All in all, it seems that I've gotten something horribly wrong from the text, but I've read it over and over and still don't get it.
Thankful for any help
Sorry for necroing this, but I recently got my hands on this book and I don't get it to make sense. I don't know what I'm doing wrong, but the formulas don't seem to make sense. What am I doing wrong?
Thankful for any help
Hi! Glad you're checking out Warpath.
And that's correct. In the case above, the ogres would deal 17 damage with each hit while the orcs would deal 21 damage.
That works out to those extra 50 orcs killing 1 extra ogre per round. That sounds pretty reasonable to me!
However, due to attrition, if each side hit the other each round, round after round, then by the beginning of round 5, their Power Ratings would both be identical (assuming no critical hits). After that, the ogres would gain a cumulative advantage, and the orcs would lose.
Also I recommended for units to be limited to 100 each. Let's see what happens if 100 orcs (+4 vs. AC 17) squared off against 50 ogres (+7 vs. AC 13), assuming each side hits the other each turn and there are no crits and nobody routs:
ROUND ONE: 100 orcs vs. 50 ogres
ROUND TWO: 93 orcs vs. 48 ogres
ROUND THREE: 86 orcs vs. 45 ogres
ROUND FOUR: 79 orcs vs. 42 ogres
ROUND FIVE: 72 orcs vs. 40 ogres
ROUND SIX: 66 orcs vs. 38 ogres
ROUND SEVEN: 60 orcs vs. 36 ogres
ROUND EIGHT: 54 orcs vs. 34 ogres
ROUND NINE: 48 orcs vs. 32 ogres
ROUND TEN: 42 orcs vs. 31 ogres
ROUND ELEVEN: 36 orcs vs. 29 ogres
ROUND TWELVE: 31 orcs vs. 28 ogres
ROUND THIRTEEN: 26 orcs vs. 27 ogres
ROUND FOURTEEN: 21 orcs vs. 26 ogres
ROUND FIFTEEN: 16 orcs vs. 25 ogres
ROUND SIXTEEN: 11 orcs vs. 24 ogres
ROUND SEVENTEEN: 6 orcs vs. 23 ogres
ROUND EIGHTEEN: 1 orc vs. 23 ogres
ROUND NINETEEN: 0 orcs vs. 22 ogres
RESULT: 100 defeated orcs and 28 defeated ogres.
Of course, this slow attrition is quickened quite a bit with the appropriate battlefield tactics to force the enemy to rout (hard to do with only 1 unit in each army, though!). It's also very unlikely the orcs would hit as often as the ogres, so the above results would probably be a little different (less casualties for the ogres, and quicker victory).
But, maybe you're still dubious about 100 CR 1/3 creatures defeating over 50% of 50 CR 3 creatures? Well, let's take a step back from the macro and look at the micro:
If we had 2 orcs vs. 1 ogre, and assuming the same parameters (no crits, everyone hits, and let's say the orcs have initiative for the sake of argument), and each creature dealt their average damage, then on round 1, the ogre would suffer 18 damage, and 1 orc would die. On round 2, the ogre would suffer 9 more damage, and the second orc would die.
Result: 2 defeated orcs and 1 wounded ogre with 27 damage (out of 30 hit points--i.e., over 50% damage).
But remember, the main theme behind Warpath is battlefield tactics and maneuvers, not attrition. =)
I hope that helps!
In the "Running a Campaign" portion there are a few references to "pay citizenry upkeep," however I don't see a description of what that is or how its calculated.
Ah man, I don't see it in there anywhere... It's 1 gold per citizen each month!
Question, since you're checking the thread - I am thinking about sprucing up the Morale system in the following ways:
1) Forcing a morale check when a unit first reaches half health (regardless of how many hits they take to get there).
2) Having variable morale checks (i.e. not all DC 15). I am thinking a range of 10-20. Taking a charge from the rear is probably more demoralizing than suffering an attack from the flanks, which is probably more demoralizing than taking attacks from two enemies in the front (for example).
Does that seem reasonable, or is the Morale DC static for a reason?
Also, is there any situation where Mass Rating might be reduced in combat? I am thinking about getting rid of it in my Excel stat block and just adjusting the formulas in each cell that accounts for MR.
Question, since you're checking the thread - I am thinking about sprucing up the Morale system in the following ways:
1) Forcing a morale check when a unit first reaches half health (regardless of how many hits they take to get there).
2) Having variable morale checks (i.e. not all DC 15). I am thinking a range of 10-20. Taking a charge from the rear is probably more demoralizing than suffering an attack from the flanks, which is probably more demoralizing than taking attacks from two enemies in the front (for example).
Does that seem reasonable, or is the Morale DC static for a reason?
Also, is there any situation where Mass Rating might be reduced in combat? I am thinking about getting rid of it in my Excel stat block and just adjusting the formulas in each cell that accounts for MR.
That doesn't sound unreasonable. Another consideration might be adding a penalty to the unit equal to the difference between its current Power Rating and its starting Power Rating (but I perhaps would keep the DC 15 if using that approach).
If you are using an excel spreadsheet, taking out the Mass Rating is fine. (When using the unit cards, we found that having a Mass Rating was useful for reducing the equation by one step.)
Looking at using the Warpath rules for Kingmaker. In case anyone cares here is some information on how I am going to take the rules for a test drive with the group. No Kingmaker Spoilers are listed as nothing occurring is within the scope of the adventure.
The PCs are traveling in winter and get to White Stag just before a bad storm hits town. Everyone within town goes to the community center known as the Boozy Moose for shelter together.
Several miles away a stead is attacked and the only one to get out is a child of 11 years old who rides to White Stag. The child speaks of the people that raided his home, and the general opinion is that these barbarians will be coming for White Stag next. Normally women and children would be sent back to Brevoy to seek protection, but with the storm that has recently struck there is little chance for that.
That leads into the group taking action to defend the town (an assumption on their action, but I know that they will do it).
The conflict that I am looking at is very small, though I think that the rules deal with most any size without changing much, simply by zooming in and out on the magnifier.
White Stag has a population of 60 people, and to start with there are 20 individuals who are willing to fight for the town. It is up to the group to rally more support and oversee what little time there is for preparation before the raiders arrive.
The questions that I have is for the calculation on Unit Power it says to round up. I was uncertain if this meant to round a .1 up to 1, or simply a .5 to a 1, while below .5 would round down to a 0.
Second question was in regards to Bull Rush maneuver. In the text it says that you push the opponent back by 10 feet for every point you beat their CMD. I ran a quick run through battle of 10 Barbarians versus 20 Commoners lead by the groups Gnomish Bard. The Barbarians rolled a CMB of 27 and tossed the Commoners back 160 feet unless I'm reading that wrong. Was this meant to be 10 feet for every 5 you beat them by?
Whether I like the system in use or not I enjoyed reading it. We will see how it goes on the table. I think that it will do fine as a fun set of rules and hope the players approach it as such. I figured playing around with rules such as this early on to figure out if we liked them would be best.
Looking at using the Warpath rules for Kingmaker. In case anyone cares here is some information on how I am going to take the rules for a test drive with the group. No Kingmaker Spoilers are listed as nothing occurring is within the scope of the adventure.
** spoiler omitted **
The questions that I have is for the calculation on Unit Power it says to round up. ...
Yes, rounding up should always go up to the nearest whole number, even if it is .1. And Bull Rush should be per 5, like standard PF-- sorry about that!
Glad you're enjoying it so far! I hope it suits your needs!
I can't tell - does the general roll for each units' initative, or for the entire army at once? The latter seems that it just becomes "I go, he goes" under most circumstances.
Unless there's some reason to divide alied units up into several armies.
I can't tell - does the general roll for each units' initative, or for the entire army at once? The latter seems that it just becomes "I go, he goes" under most circumstances.
Unless there's some reason to divide alied units up into several armies.
It is I go he goes but since damage calculations are factored between rounds in effect everyone actually performs phases at the exact same time.
It is I go he goes but since damage calculations are factored between rounds in effect everyone actually performs phases at the exact same time.I can't tell - does the general roll for each units' initative, or for the entire army at once? The latter seems that it just becomes "I go, he goes" under most circumstances.
Unless there's some reason to divide alied units up into several armies.
Speaking of damage calculations, I can't figure out how they make any sense.
Unit Strength = HD * Count
Mass Rating = HD * 10
Unit Power = Strength / Mass Rating = (HD * Count) / (HD * 10) = Count / 10
When the army enters combat and takes damage, Strength is reduced and Count is recalculated as NewCount = NewStrength / Power. If you run this calculation after the army takes no damage whatsoever, (so that NewStrength = Strength), you get:
NewCount = NewStrength / Power = Strength / (Count / 10) = (HD * Count) / (Count / 10) = (HD * Count) * (10 / Count) = HD * 10.
So, to run the numbers with an example, a 6 HD army of 50 trolls.
Strength = 300
Rating = 60
Power = 5
They enter combat and take 1 point of damage. (Strenth = 299) The count is now 299/5 = 59.8 rounds up to 60.
So there are now 60 trolls, in a 50 troll army.
Did I miss something? Is there a typo? That section does say "Recalculate the unit power" and then give a formula for recalculating the unit count...
Calculating unit Power should be the Strength divided by the Mass Rating, rounded up.
So between turns if a unit took any damage, you should check to see if it affected their unit power.
If a unit of 50 trolls takes 1 damage to its strength, reducing it to 299, then you would divide 299 by its Mass Rating of 60. After rounding up, their Power would still be 5.
To determine the individual count, you divide the Strength by the Hit Die, and round up.
So 299 by 6 shows there are still 50 fighting trolls left in the unit.
Thanks!
Calculating unit Power should be the Strength divided by the Mass Rating, rounded up.
So between turns if a unit took any damage, you should check to see if it affected their unit power.
If a unit of 50 trolls takes 1 damage to its strength, reducing it to 299, then you would divide 299 by its Mass Rating of 60. After rounding up, their Power would still be 5.
To determine the individual count, you divide the Strength by the Hit Die, and round up.
So 299 by 6 shows there are still 50 fighting trolls left in the unit.
Thanks!
That makes a lot more sense. Might I suggest errata for page 15 to clarify that?
Also for errata: the last paragraph on that page says that movement is part of phase 2, and then later that the melee attack is phase 3. These are actually phases 3 and 4 respectively.
That makes a lot more sense. Might I suggest errata for page 15 to clarify that?Also for errata: the last paragraph on that page says that movement is part of phase 2, and then later that the melee attack is phase 3. These are actually phases 3 and 4 respectively.
Thanks, Bobson!
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Hi. Sorry for digging up an old thread but I'm super confused on something in this book. Damage! I get that there was an error in calculating unit power, and i've taken that into account.
So if I understand damage, you look at what the average damage die is for an attack, so a group of 5th level humans with longswords deal 1d8+2 normal (non-mass combat) damage. And according to the table, average damage for a d8 is 4.5 (rounded down is 4, +2 so total of 6). Then looking at the average damage bonus, I see that damage between 4-9 is +1. So when my army unit deals damage and it's unit power is 10, it deals 10 +1 (11) damage. That's it? Nothing else is calculated in that? That means that if these 5th level fighters (5 HD) went up against a unit of 100 trolls (6 HD, so Unit Strength of 600), it would take an average of 60 ROUNDS to kill off these trolls!!!?!?! Because you're only doing at most 11 damage a round. And that's if they hit them every round! Did I miss something with that? Do you add weapon damage to that in any way? I can't find where it says that, in fact the only thing I can find where it says how to calculate damage is that it's unit power plus average damage bonus. Please help. Thanks.
Hi. Sorry for digging up an old thread but I'm super confused on something in this book. Damage! I get that there was an error in calculating unit power, and i've taken that into account.
So if I understand damage, you look at what the average damage die is for an attack, so a group of 5th level humans with longswords deal 1d8+2 normal (non-mass combat) damage. And according to the table, average damage for a d8 is 4.5 (rounded down is 4, +2 so total of 6). Then looking at the average damage bonus, I see that damage between 4-9 is +1. So when my army unit deals damage and it's unit power is 10, it deals 10 +1 (11) damage. That's it? Nothing else is calculated in that? That means that if these 5th level fighters (5 HD) went up against a unit of 100 trolls (6 HD, so Unit Strength of 600), it would take an average of 60 ROUNDS to kill off these trolls!!!?!?! Because you're only doing at most 11 damage a round. And that's if they hit them every round! Did I miss something with that? Do you add weapon damage to that in any way? I can't find where it says that, in fact the only thing I can find where it says how to calculate damage is that it's unit power plus average damage bonus. Please help. Thanks.
Hi! Sorry it took so long to see this and reply! But in short -- YES. As stated in the book, war by attrition takes a LONG time. Medieval/classical battles, if no side gained an advantage, went on for HOURS. I mean HOURS.
The entire focus is to force players to think like real generals. War by attrition is not how mass combat was won. It was won my outmaneuvering your opponent on the field. Out-thinking him (or her).
If there is 1 unit vs. 1 unit, then the odds are that it will take quite a long time to get through that battle. But if you get some flanking going on, force some Morale Checks, then once one side routes, it's slaughter! :)
Hope this helps!
I hope this thread is still watched...
Is there an official FAQ posted for Warpath anywhere?
What effect, if any, would apply if a unit is not homogeneous? I.e. a group of 90 fighters and 10 clerics?
Also, I have a question considering the multipliers for area-based damage. I used area-based, not area of effect because that is where the question comes from.
In natural attacks with area of effects, there is a flat multiplier of x3 at the end of the formula. In the area-effect spells, there is a flat multiplier of x10 at the end of the formula.
What is the relationship (or is there a relationship) between the actual area covered by the effect, ranged or not, etc, and these multipliers? Any impact from effects that have a combined area of effect smaller than the unit?
When it refers to spell effects and final damage, the average damage x number of casters assumes that all casters are casting the same spell at once? Thus if only 5 of a 10 wizard troop casts a spell, it would be Average Damage x 5 (x multiplier as needed)?
Thanks