Informal Poll: Skimpy Armor

"Impractical armor" is an old conversation to most people by now so I'm going to skip right to the question: Are we there yet? Is the PFO community ready to move our characters beyond the hot hot shake your stuff kobold seducing sexy times battle equipment?

Personally I would like this to be one of the ways GW changes how MMORPGs are made; good-looking and practical armor for everyone. I'm going to caps lock this next part because it can't be overstated.

IF YOU WANT YOUR MALE OR FEMALE CHARACTER TO LOOK SEXY THERE ARE WAYS TO DO THAT -IT'S A SANDBOX- JUST NOT WITH THE COMBAT PROTECTION.

We all have to wear that armor and no one should be prodded to roleplay the frustration of wearing hot pants greaves into battle because there's nothing else even from armor crafters in town by request. There are hundreds of models for armor that are attractive to badass and still look like they could actually protect you; these are professional artists they can design more than one kind of MMO armor. We can have sexy wear (which one can still wear into pvp if one really wants) stay an optional corner we're not all subjected to just to play the game.
I wanted to see if there's a strong opinion about this in the PFO community before they got a lot of art done. Depending how this goes I have an informal poll in mind about characters' actual bodies.
In the spirit of crowdforging what do you think?

high heels are not for combat, people who wear them are vulnerable. this is how it should be.

There is no reason a knight should run around in a chainmail bikini and receive any real protection from it and annoying for those females who want to look like actual combatants.

I still remember my shock and horror in WoW when my female warrior (the "tank" for our group) got a piece of quest-reward plate that was (a) a BIG step up in armor and adds, meaning I really needed to equip it, and (b) basically bikini bottoms and thigh-high boots, while my friend's male paladin wore the same piece and was fully clothed. Bad enough for non-roleplayers; for roleplayers it can be not only frustrating but completely immersion-breaking as well. I agree that no one should have to equip that type of armor.

On the flip side, of course, no one should have to equip head-to-toe armor either. I can see barbarians in particular wearing minimal armor, and non-combat types like my bard might find showing some skin to be advantageous.

Ideally, I'd like to see a variety of armor skins available at roughly equivalent power levels. But at minimum, armor shouldn't be gendered; a piece's artwork should have the same representation on female as on male characters.

You want us to move.. beyond the old hot hot shake your stuff kobold seducing sexy times battle equipment?

I mean.. what's beyond? Are we talking moving to naked or Tera Online?

I still remember my shock and horror in WoW when my female warrior (the "tank" for our group) got a piece of quest-reward plate that was (a) a BIG step up in armor and adds, meaning I really needed to equip it, and (b) basically bikini bottoms and thigh-high boots, while my friend's male paladin wore the same piece and was fully clothed. Bad enough for non-roleplayers; for roleplayers it can be not only frustrating but completely immersion-breaking as well. I agree that no one should have to equip that type of armor.

On the flip side, of course, no one should have to equip head-to-toe armor either. I can see barbarians in particular wearing minimal armor, and non-combat types like my bard might find showing some skin to be advantageous.

Ideally, I'd like to see a variety of armor skins available at roughly equivalent power levels. But at minimum, armor shouldn't be gendered; a piece's artwork should have the same representation on female as on male characters.

^this I wholeheartedly agree with.

high heels are not for combat, people who wear them are vulnerable. this is how it should be.

There is no reason a knight should run around in a chainmail bikini and receive any real protection from it and annoying for those females who want to look like actual combatants.

Unless of course, they've paid to have their armor glammered to look like chainmail bikini and high heels.

The is definitely a more down to earth type of game. Practical armor is an absolute must.

There are genres where it is cool to were impractical armor and this game doesn't fall anywhere near them.

I would like to offer up an interesting situation that has come up in my Pathfinder games here at home. My wife is an avid player and while not a girly girl has evolved her character into a barbarian that fell in love with the more sultry evening wear of civilized society. As such she started trying to where dresses over her armor and fighting without the armor in a dress until she was able to glamour her armor.

She is now a lucerne hammer wielding barbarian who appears to be slaughtering her foes in evening wear. She also has a 14 in charisma so the people of Magnimar have taken to calling her the beautiful nightmare.

I bring this up because my wife chose one of the most fierce classes with the most masculine of under tones and surprised everyone playing by favoring the pretty. It has made for a very fun character to see played. This is not to say that she is running around as Barbarian McSlutbag but she has found a way to preserve a bit of her feminine side which should not be completely ignored in PFO.

I do not agree with chain mail bikini's in Pathfinder. In games like Terra where its not traditional fantasy they can take it however they want. But with everything else having a real feeling (economy, settlements, crafting, etc) overtly sexual armor would be out of place in my mind.

Kusuriurite wrote:

high heels are not for combat, people who wear them are vulnerable. this is how it should be.

There is no reason a knight should run around in a chainmail bikini and receive any real protection from it and annoying for those females who want to look like actual combatants.

Unless of course, they've paid to have their armor glammered to look like chainmail bikini and high heels.

illusions not withstanding of course. Since the armor itself is not what it appears.

I guess that begs the question: will people be able to glammer their armor, like they can in the TTRPG?
If so, I reckon they can make it look how ever they damn well please.

I agree, though, that base armor skins should look like functional armor. Only the wealthy (those that can afford the enchants) should have the illusion options.

The solution is cosmetic armor. I'm not overly concerned about how much skin my character shows but I hate gaudy, or evil looking armor. Others love it. Why force people to wear armor they don't like for stats?

Whether it be by allowing us to change high stat armor to look like items we prefer visually, or doing a cosmetic equip system like LotRO, don't force us to wear armor we don't like just for stats. Then it doesn't matter if the uber-gear is bikini-mail or a clown suit.

I also fall into the camp that super protective, thick armor... should look super protective and thick. Barbarians are obviously an exception but they aren't expected to wear thick armor, they have thick skin... the swords do make it past their armor.

I also think one thing so many developers neglect... it is possible to have sexy looking female armor... that still looks like it would serve as protective armor. The armor can be shapely, fit the womans curves etc... while still covering 90% of the woman's body. The concept of sexy is only obtainable by being as close to naked as possible, just isn't true, either in common world, or in fantasy armor.

The solution is cosmetic armor. I'm not overly concerned about how much skin my character shows but I hate gaudy, or evil looking armor. Others love it. Why force people to wear armor they don't like for stats?

Whether it be by allowing us to change high stat armor to look like items we prefer visually, or doing a cosmetic equip system like LotRO, don't force us to wear armor we don't like just for stats. Then it doesn't matter if the uber-gear is bikini-mail or a clown suit.

I am a big fan of being able to identify people's armor by looking at it. Not having a cosmetic option for say, someone wearing plate armor and it looks like skin-tight cloth. I understand the magic view that you could make armor look like anything though.

I can understand why some people want revealing "armor" and agree it has a place. But it should be by choice, buy it or craft it. It should have a lower armor class, and perhaps stiletto heels have a movement speed penalty.

I agree that things like plate armor shouldnt be skimpy, but I also think there are certain armor/cloth types that are ok to be skimpy. Like someone else said about barbarians.

Keep it relevant to the situation. However, we dont need "bounce" physics for female characters.......but this game doesnt sound like that kind of game.

I will say that I actually like gendered armor/cloth though. That doesnt mean it has to be skimpy. But if Im playing a female character I expect at least a little femininity in my wardrobe. Just as If I play a male character I expect it to be a bit more masculine. I hope Im not coming off as sexist, It would just add that much more depth and diversity is all.

I am a big fan of being able to identify people's armor by looking at it. Not having a cosmetic option for say, someone wearing plate armor and it looks like skin-tight cloth. I understand the magic view that you could make armor look like anything though.

In the topics where we discuss cosmetic gear in more detail pretty much everyone agreed light armor should only be able to look like light armor and heavy like heavy. There is still a lot of customization that can be done within those limitations.

Also I would point out armor shouldn't always be identifiable by sight. I the P&P I almost always conceal my armor be beneath a shirt/cloak if possible. Why would I let my enemies know I have a chain shirt or breastplate on?

The solution is cosmetic armor. I'm not overly concerned about how much skin my character shows but I hate gaudy, or evil looking armor. Others love it. Why force people to wear armor they don't like for stats?

Whether it be by allowing us to change high stat armor to look like items we prefer visually, or doing a cosmetic equip system like LotRO, don't force us to wear armor we don't like just for stats. Then it doesn't matter if the uber-gear is bikini-mail or a clown suit.

uber gear should appear uber IMO (again excluding illusion). I'm fine with people wearing or customizing their armor to look how they want but, i think plate armor should always look like plate armor. Perhaps allow people to smith spiky pauldrons and other visual pieces to their liking but, retail the overall base of the armor.

In the topics where we discuss cosmetic gear in more detail pretty much everyone agreed light armor should only be able to look like light armor and heavy like heavy. There is still a lot of customization that can be done within those limitations.

Also I would point out armor shouldn't always be identifiable by sight. I the P&P I almost always conceal my armor be beneath a shirt/cloak if possible. Why would I let my enemies know I have a chain shirt or breastplate on?

Yes, but a GM who focused more on realism would make NPC's suspicious of the person whose body looked so awkwardly bulky under their shirt/cloak and have thoughts about whether he's just wearing two or three layers of clothing or armor.

It's not impossible to hide armor but even many-linked chain shirts deform the natural body shape.

Still, it's a world of magic, and many players would be happier being able to shift their armor to look like whatever suits them best.

Andius wrote:

The solution is cosmetic armor. I'm not overly concerned about how much skin my character shows but I hate gaudy, or evil looking armor. Others love it. Why force people to wear armor they don't like for stats?

Whether it be by allowing us to change high stat armor to look like items we prefer visually, or doing a cosmetic equip system like LotRO, don't force us to wear armor we don't like just for stats. Then it doesn't matter if the uber-gear is bikini-mail or a clown suit.

I am a big fan of being able to identify people's armor by looking at it. Not having a cosmetic option for say, someone wearing plate armor and it looks like skin-tight cloth. I understand the magic view that you could make armor look like anything though.

While Andius's view is practical and makes sense. I also agree with Alydos view, especially in a PVP environment, the ability to size up other players at a glance is both useful and important.

Furthermore, even though it's annoying at times, I also over all like the internal conflict of choosing between function and form when selecting what to equip. I like the idea that you might have to sacrifice appearance for mechanical benefits, and vice versa, it adds an extra level of depth.

Meanwhile, cosmetic armor options only add depth to your equipment menu, but take away from the game over all, I think.

Also, over all I would like to see less emphasis on min-maxed equipment optimizations and more freedom to wear what you want. The culture of everyone needing the best of the best equipment that is present in games like WoW is just no fun to me.

In a sandbox game, freedom of choice should be paramount, but choices mean nothing without consequences. You want the +20 AC armor, you suffer looking and moving like an iron turtle. You want to look like a porno deva, you suffer being as vulnerable as butter to a hot knife.

I would like to look nice in armour . . . not half-naked.

@Alantia, Me as well.

I want armor to look like armor and not be a simple bikini and loincloth. This isn't Conan. If someone has Heavy armor, I want it to look like heavy armor. I also want to hear it rattle and clank while moving. If it has been enchanted with a glamor or slient moves fine, but in base form it should look like sheets of metal, leather, and chain that would actually be protective.

If you want to fight in a bikini and be protected, then invest in the monk class, have someone cast mage armor on you, or get magic items to increase your AC.

I was under the impression that gear was not going to be of the importance in this game that it is in other games to prevent the "I want only the best" type play style. Perhaps I was mistaken.

I am a woman and I play female toons. I don't really want to wear men's clothing no matter what class I choose to play or whether the other players like it or not. On the other hand, I don't think a male sorcerer should have to wear dresses if they don't want to either. I really hope there are different looks to choose from so my cleric doesn't have to wear her chain mail when she is cooking, or marketing, etc.

(yeah, yeah, I know. We aren't playing house here but I like that part of games as much as the slaughtering part)

I was under the impression that gear was not going to be of the importance in this game that it is in other games to prevent the "I want only the best" type play style. Perhaps I was mistaken.

I am a woman and I play female toons. I don't really want to wear men's clothing no matter what class I choose to play or whether the other players like it or not. On the other hand, I don't think a male sorcerer should have to wear dresses if they don't want to either. I really hope there are different looks to choose from so my cleric doesn't have to wear her chain mail when she is cooking, or marketing, etc.

(yeah, yeah, I know. We aren't playing house here but I like that part of games as much as the slaughtering part)

I personally like having my male Sorceror dressed in bright silk shirts, tight dragonskin pants and soft deerskin shoes with a nice fedora or bowler hat. I also understand the need for robes and the desire for female characters to dress in both male and female clothes. I mean how many Female Rogues are going to go into a dungeon wearing a full on dress with 16 petticoats and corset?

We need a wide variety of clothes to wear with a dye system so we can change the colors to fit our liking....
(Also dye is where the real money should be in tailoring)

If I roll a female character she would have to look about 80.

Use your imagination to pick up the visual I am now mentally broadcasting at you....focus.... foocussss...

'nuff said.

IF YOU WANT YOUR MALE OR FEMALE CHARACTER TO LOOK SEXY THERE ARE WAYS TO DO THAT -IT'S A SANDBOX- JUST NOT WITH THE COMBAT PROTECTION.

Why can't a girl wear her high heels into combat and get +9 AC from her fullplate thong? Oppression!

I figure a forging system to improve whatever gear you take a fancy to would be welcomed. Sort of like masterworked items but not just on construction

Tera Online goes too far in that its just cheesy. Otherwise I don't mind skimpy armour if it looks good. For example, some of Guild Wars 2 light armours are skimpy but they are beautiful and don't look out of place for the role.

Proxima Sin wrote:

IF YOU WANT YOUR MALE OR FEMALE CHARACTER TO LOOK SEXY THERE ARE WAYS TO DO THAT -IT'S A SANDBOX- JUST NOT WITH THE COMBAT PROTECTION.

Why can't a girl wear her high heels into combat and get +9 AC from her fullplate thong? Oppression!

Its not the thong its the the bracers of armor:)

I still remember the Alias book where she's wearing chainmail that exposes her breasts, but the magic protected that area....

Not that she liked it, but someone had been dressing her up like a doll..

It would make sense for the system to work something like the following as well:

Player A finds armor. based on quality it has 2-3 default looks that it can have. You don't get to pick how the armor you find looks as normal.

Player B creates armor. Based on quality and skill he has between 2 and 10 different looks he can choose from when crafting said armor. Adds variety to the craft and higher skill gives access to rarer and more intricate models of armor.

Player C has found armor and likes the bonuses but not the look of the armor. He goes to player D to have the armor glamoured where he now has access to a slot on his character screen to "equip" a piece of armor that replaces the look of his current armor. Because glamour in Pathfinder isn't restricted to the same type of armor or armor at all, any armor or cosmetic garb (dress shirt, trousers, dress, etc) can be equipped.

Dyes IMO should not simply be an item to be purchased but more of a service. You find the tailor who using a trade window of sorts performs the dyeing of your armor, with more options for dyeing the armor and more colors being available to those with higher skill in tailoring.

I still remember my shock and horror in WoW when my female warrior (the "tank" for our group) got a piece of quest-reward plate that was (a) a BIG step up in armor and adds, meaning I really needed to equip it, and (b) basically bikini bottoms and thigh-high boots, while my friend's male paladin wore the same piece and was fully clothed. Bad enough for non-roleplayers; for roleplayers it can be not only frustrating but completely immersion-breaking as well. I agree that no one should have to equip that type of armor.

WOW's gotten a bit better in that department of late.

Misere wrote:

I was under the impression that gear was not going to be of the importance in this game that it is in other games to prevent the "I want only the best" type play style. Perhaps I was mistaken.

I am a woman and I play female toons. I don't really want to wear men's clothing no matter what class I choose to play or whether the other players like it or not. On the other hand, I don't think a male sorcerer should have to wear dresses if they don't want to either. I really hope there are different looks to choose from so my cleric doesn't have to wear her chain mail when she is cooking, or marketing, etc.

(yeah, yeah, I know. We aren't playing house here but I like that part of games as much as the slaughtering part)

I personally like having my male Sorceror dressed in bright silk shirts, tight dragonskin pants and soft deerskin shoes with a nice fedora or bowler hat. I also understand the need for robes and the desire for female characters to dress in both male and female clothes. I mean how many Female Rogues are going to go into a dungeon wearing a full on dress with 16 petticoats and corset?

We need a wide variety of clothes to wear with a dye system so we can change the colors to fit our liking....
(Also dye is where the real money should be in tailoring)

But that's actually a nice outfit. And I don't mind wearing chain mail that isn't skimpy. Just saying that variety is good and different looks appeal to different people at different times and in changing situations. Seems to me like a lot of people want a game that gives everyone the freedom to use their imagination...as long as it agrees with their own particular tastes. When I played Star Trek in my own sandbox, Captain Kirk wore a sundress. =)

@ Pharazon. I like that idea.

I like the way GW2 handles this issue. You take 2 pieces of the same equipment merge them together and choose one of each of the armor pattern, stats, and enchantments to be created on the new item. Although I suspect it is more realistic to have to take the two piece of armor to an armorsmith, tailor, or what have you so they can combine them, than allowing anyone to do it with the appropriate magic token. The concept of glamoring an armor piece is also interesting but does that mean if i have the appropriate skill I can see through your illusion and see what you actually are wearing. And if so, how does that work? do I see a translucent outline of your illusion over top of the real armor, do i not see the illusion at all, or do i have to take make a conscious choice as to what I see.

Chiassa wrote:

I still remember my shock and horror in WoW when my female warrior (the "tank" for our group) got a piece of quest-reward plate that was (a) a BIG step up in armor and adds, meaning I really needed to equip it, and (b) basically bikini bottoms and thigh-high boots, while my friend's male paladin wore the same piece and was fully clothed. Bad enough for non-roleplayers; for roleplayers it can be not only frustrating but completely immersion-breaking as well. I agree that no one should have to equip that type of armor.

WOW's gotten a bit better in that department of late.

Yes, it has, but it took six years and 14 forum threads (two of those extended many, many times) to get it changed. I really don't want to have to go through that fight again.

This is what female armor should look like (you'd want a helmet and gloves though)

if you want to look feminine, that's what light armour is for

The armor in the core rulebooks looks decent. I hope they make replicas of those. I'm a fan of pathfinder art so I hope they go along those lines and don't make anything dramatic. And maybe players can buy some customizations like accessories for there armor to make their appearance look more unique.

And I hope not everyone is running around with a flaming blade. :). If that's the case I hope the weapon and armor magical effects can be turned off.

As to bikini-mail... I was always a fan of Elmore's art, but I really don't think the game would be improved by making all female characters into cheesecake models. I tend to make about half my characters of each gender, and I wouldn't want my female ones all forced to look like exotic dancers any more than I'd want the male ones forced to have goofy Popeye-arms like in WoW.

I'm actually not in favour of a complete cosmetic slot system like LotRO has, as it would be too easy to make the tanked-out paladin appear to be wearing little more than pyjamas, while a sorcerer appears to be wearing plate while not being slowed or failing any spells. I'd like that sort of form & function dissonance to be a matter of illusion, not an everyday thing.

Some types of clothing like tabards and surcoats should naturally go over armour, but you can't expect to hide a chain shirt under a silk one without it looking very strange.

Making cosmetic changes to items should be fertile ground for crafters. Whether it's the novice tailor with just enough skill to get dyes to come out right every time, to a limner who can paint your heraldry on a shield, on up to a master armourer who can emboss a crest on your brestplate, there's a lot of room for customizing looks without using the easy answer of cosmetic slots.

That said, glamered armour, a hat of disguise, or other items could be implemented by taking the looks of one outfit as an overlay on another. You might have a number of cosmetic outfits stored on the magic item and using it would let you choose between them.

This is what female armor should look like (you'd want a helmet and gloves though)

if you want to look feminine, that's what light armour is for

Unfortunately I agree, sigh. So much for eye candy.

Decorus wrote:

Misere wrote:

I was under the impression that gear was not going to be of the importance in this game that it is in other games to prevent the "I want only the best" type play style. Perhaps I was mistaken.

I am a woman and I play female toons. I don't really want to wear men's clothing no matter what class I choose to play or whether the other players like it or not. On the other hand, I don't think a male sorcerer should have to wear dresses if they don't want to either. I really hope there are different looks to choose from so my cleric doesn't have to wear her chain mail when she is cooking, or marketing, etc.

(yeah, yeah, I know. We aren't playing house here but I like that part of games as much as the slaughtering part)

I personally like having my male Sorceror dressed in bright silk shirts, tight dragonskin pants and soft deerskin shoes with a nice fedora or bowler hat. I also understand the need for robes and the desire for female characters to dress in both male and female clothes. I mean how many Female Rogues are going to go into a dungeon wearing a full on dress with 16 petticoats and corset?

We need a wide variety of clothes to wear with a dye system so we can change the colors to fit our liking....
(Also dye is where the real money should be in tailoring)

But that's actually a nice outfit. And I don't mind wearing chain mail that isn't skimpy. Just saying that variety is good and different looks appeal to different people at different times and in changing situations. Seems to me like a lot of people want a game that gives everyone the freedom to use their imagination...as long as it agrees with their own particular tastes. When I played Star Trek in my own sandbox, Captain Kirk wore a sundress. =)

I'm of the opinion that if someone wants to dress thier Elven Priestess in strategically placed diamonds and a smile. They have the right to do so. As long as there are options that fufill everyone's needs to be as dressed and lacking in dress as possible.

If some dude wants to run his Human Monk around just wearing a giant cod piece shaped like a rooster I'm all for it. But there also has to be tasteful monk robes that are also wearable and look nice.

It seems like everyone agrees that a variety of looks including provocative should be available to players and I agree with that especially for a sandbox.

What I and others in the thread are going for is that in the area of swords-and-fireballs combat protection the hypersexualised, pointless, instadeath armor isn't our standard default anymore. You can have barbarian armor with minimal coverage and name it accordingly so we know there's rp behind it and it's outside the game's norm.

Make practical, cool looking, visually logical combat armor the norm. Sexier armor and other types of wardrobe can be electives in the realm of specialized crafting or cash shop. That sound alright?

I want each player to give their character the look they want.

If someone wants to run around in a chainmail bikini and still be protected, I think they should be allowed to. If it's possible to enchant a simple bracer to provide extra Armor Class, then surely it's possible to do the same with a chainmail bikini.

I think the bigger problem is that there really hasn't been much support for players who want their female characters to look like they're wearing real armor. And I hope PFO does a better job here than other games have.

randomwalker wrote:

This is what female armor should look like (you'd want a helmet and gloves though)

if you want to look feminine, that's what light armour is for

Unfortunately I agree, sigh. So much for eye candy.

Light armor? No, that's what clothing options are for. Light armor is still things like leathers, and to be protective they need to cover your body.

No reason they can't look skin tight, though.

True just so long as those armor pieces protect about as much as they look like they do

I'll throw in a vote for more practical armor for females! Its hard to take anyone seriously when they are dressed like a stripper.

I want each player to give their character the look they want.

If someone wants to run around in a chainmail bikini and still be protected, I think they should be allowed to. If it's possible to enchant a simple bracer to provide extra Armor Class, then surely it's possible to do the same with a chainmail bikini....

I disagree.. i dont want to be fighting paladins who soak up my hits while looking like stripper mcfee.

Light armor is still things like leathers, and to be protective they need to cover your body.

No reason they can't look skin tight, though.

Actually there is: that would restrict movement in life-or-death fights. I'm not using "practical" as a euphemism for only % of skin covered. I mean something that looks logically like it would help you live through Braveheart.

You can get all the Catwoman leathers crafted for yourself that you can afford. Just don't make that the automatic situation for my ranger.

As long as Krom can be a super-ripped dude fighting monsters while wearing only loincloth Krom not care what anyone else wear.

If someone wants to run around in a chainmail bikini and still be protected, I think they should be allowed to. If it's possible to enchant a simple bracer to provide extra Armor Class, then surely it's possible to do the same with a chainmail bikini.

absolutely, as long as they treat it like an enchanted bracers/ring/amulet. The problem is being told that the unenchanted bikini is the female version of plate mail.

I absolutely want to see elves in "nothing but smiles and strategically placed diamonds", but they should dress that way to deliberately provoke, not to protect themselves from stabs.

Nihimon wrote:

If someone wants to run around in a chainmail bikini and still be protected, I think they should be allowed to. If it's possible to enchant a simple bracer to provide extra Armor Class, then surely it's possible to do the same with a chainmail bikini.

absolutely, as long as they treat it like an enchanted bracers/ring/amulet. The problem is being told that the unenchanted bikini is the female version of plate mail.

I absolutely want to see elves in "nothing but smiles and strategically placed diamonds", but they should dress that way to deliberately provoke, not to protect themselves from stabs.

Do they get a +1 AC distraction bonus vs humaniod?