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Am I correct in understanding that the content of this thread and the discussion that took place here were used during the creation of the Kardaji Bay guide? If that was ever the case, it certainly isn't now. Paizo.com's Terms of Use provide that our posting "questions, messages, ideas, suggestions, feedback, comments, and other content ('User Content')" grants Paizo "a nonexclusive, royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, and fully sublicensable right to access, view, use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, copy, and display such User Content in any form, media, or technology now known or hereafter developed." That is, they can use any ideas we post here, and we have no legal ability to either stop them or demand compensation.
Oh, that's easy. The Satrap is lying. He talks a lot of smack, but really doesn't want to get into a fight and have his total lack of powerful backing exposed. Doesn't work, publishing Qadira's census reports alone should be sufficient to deter any of Xerbystes's neighbors, seeing as how his province's population outnumbers theirs by an order of magnitude (and its productive capacity, supply of high level characters, etc. should do likewise).
Khari's wiki page doesn't draw from anything more recent than 2016. That is, it doesn't consider the World Guide or other Lost Omens sources (including Firebrands which puts Khari in Rahadoumi). The map does draw from the World Guide. I fully expect that Khari's status will be a plot point in Hell's Destiny.
Hell's Destiny situates the PCs in southern Longmarch, near Corentyn and Khari (and the Andoren base on Thuryan, and Rahadoumi core territory). Not near Ravounel or northern Hellcoast. And from there they drive east, not north.
"Massive" is not apt. Including base teams, bonus teams, unique allies, and the PCs the rebellion is supposed to have something like a hundred cadre members at most. The five thousand or so supporters it's supposed to have by the end of its advancement track is more apt, considering Kintargo only has about twelve thousand people in it. But neither supporters nor members (whether allies or team members) are actually invested in the organization—they don't support it with dues (no, pooling funds to make gifts to the leadership is not the same!); they have no input on decision-making or on who's leading the organization (the PCs are unassailable in this); they don't organize internal factions that push agendas and need to be managed (and if some allies come with preexisting factions attached, like the Rose of Kintargo or the Order of the Torrent or the Lacunafex, nothing is made of this); and they do nothing mechanically that the PCs can't do (indeed, don't end up doing) themselves. At all times, the rebellion is a completely passive extension of, and a slush fund for, the PCs.
You can also ignore the narrative aspect of it too, the entire effort ultimately comes down to the PCs assassinating most of the government.
Cheliax has the option to call them in against Andoran, driving a rift between two states that have every reason to ally and no love for House Thrune.This is not actually true, if the canon ending is that the Silver Ravens achieved the even partial success in each of the negotiations. With 2 Negotiaton Points (out of 3) of the issue of a Military Alliance, "Nereza agrees to place limits on the nations against which Ravounel will assist Cheliax. For example, the PCs may ask for an exemption on warring against Andoran or Taldor" (emphasis added) Rather than assuming, has anyone considered asking the developers what the canon treaty says?
Cheliax hasn't been part of Taldor for over 600 years. What if anything was different between Cheliax as it was after Aspex and before the civil war, and Cheliax as it was under the Taldan empire? Other than where the extractive, parasitical imperial capital was located?
Casmaron is a huge continent and Kelesh is a sprawling empire. If you want similar variety in Avistan, you already have it: Taldans, Kellids, Varisians, Shoanti, Ulfen, Jadwiga, Varki, Iobarians... Nidalese (who were introduced in the Lost Omens Campaign Setting having been absent from the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, and are probably differentiated more from their neighbors than any of Chelaxians, Andorens, and Taldans are from one another).
If Abrogail is going to ascend, what better way to show the might of Hell and the Might of cheliax then by laying a perfect trap for her enemies. Think they can walk into Egorian and then send them all directly to Hell to be destroyed, tortured and used for Hell's ends. People reacted badly to this sort of thing in Tyrant's Grasp. Players want their PCs to win.
Fundamentally, I look at it this way. Also FWIW, the "with a force of Andoran military" bit is questionable. Hell's Destiny is supposed to start its PCs (who can be, but do not have to be, the PCs from Hellbreakers[1]) off in Hellcoast, which is on the opposite side of the country from where you'd expect to find most of the Andoran military, and from the main action of Hellbreakers. There's some token covert Andoren presence on Thuryan, and perhaps a small squadron out of Talmandor's Bounty or Elesomere, but more external help to the PCs is more likely to come from Rahadoum simply because of how much closer and larger its bases are. [1] How Hellbreakers PCs are meant to travel cross-country to a place they presumably have not been before is not at this time explained.
If she becomes a deity, where would she fit into Hell's Hiearchy, and what would her edicts, anathamas, domains, weapon, etc be.I think Cheliax the nation is slated for some reversals, but I bet Abrogail II is going to get something she wants - apotheosis, maybe? Abby's depicted as keeping a corrupted Heart's Edge close, FWIW.
I mean what is going on. explain this whole dual power structure going on as I am not familar with Pezzack.Same one that's been ongoing for a good. . . fourteen years at this point?What is the dual power situtation going on there?Not too much to go on, but the general premise seems to be the PCs starting uprisings along Cheliax's western coastlineOh, is Pezzack's dual power situation finally getting resolved? From 4710 AR and through at least Towns of the Inner Sea, power is contested between and among several groups of insurgents on the one hand, and an imperial blockading squadron and some loyalist holdouts on the other. Generally speaking, most of the town is held by the insurgents, while the sea is held by the imperial Navy and the hinterland is held variously by the imperial Army and the native strix.
What is the dual power situtation going on there?Not too much to go on, but the general premise seems to be the PCs starting uprisings along Cheliax's western coastlineOh, is Pezzack's dual power situation finally getting resolved? Same one that's been ongoing for a good. . . fourteen years at this point?
Since as far as I understand the cities of Varisia don't look anything like the Asian influenced Thasslonian Architecture or is that assumption wrong and they do look like asian villages? If by this you mean Korvosa, Magnimar, and Riddleport, these outside surviving Thassilonian monuments these draw architecturally from the Chelaxian tradition—Korvosa having been a Chelaxian colony, Magnimar having been founded by Korvosan dissenters, and Riddleport having started as a base to raid shipping in and out of Korvosa. Kaer Maga was poured into a giant concrete mold and resembles nothing else. Urglin is expressly not Thassilonian. Brinewall, which is in New Thassilon these days, was built by Tien exiles.
So, you object to another kingdom which does good for people and exists as a counterbalance for the more conqueror-like rulers in the area (including Belimarius and some Linnorm Kings) coming into existance? "There are other decent places in the world, somewhere else" is not really a good argument, IMO. Also Kaer Maga does have some vampires secretly ruling over it, IIRC.I personally say that with great power comes great opportunity to do good and Sorshen setting up a kingdom where exiles and artists are welcome to live safely from people who persecute them is something someone of lesser power could not have done in the first place.In fact these are dime a dozen in the Lost Omens Campaign Setting. Magnimar and Kaer Maga are two such, and they're even in the Saga Lands. Others include Nantambu, Lamasara, Kintargo, Vyre, and Pitax. There is little substantial difference in hospitality or freedom of expression as between them, or between them on the one hand and modern Xin-Shalast on the other; the most substantial difference is that Xin-Shalast is ruled by Sorshen and the others are not. I object to the idea that it is somehow unique or special and required Sorshen's unique or special intervention to bring it into being or Sorshen's unique or special qualities to preserve it against the slings and arrows of the world. Because that would be what is necessary to justify her continuing to rule her own realm instead of settling down somewhere similar where she was not the absolute autocrat.
I personally say that with great power comes great opportunity to do good and Sorshen setting up a kingdom where exiles and artists are welcome to live safely from people who persecute them is something someone of lesser power could not have done in the first place. In fact these are dime a dozen in the Lost Omens Campaign Setting. Magnimar and Kaer Maga are two such, and they're even in the Saga Lands. Others include Nantambu, Lamasara, Kintargo, Vyre, and Pitax. There is little substantial difference in hospitality or freedom of expression as between them, or between them on the one hand and modern Xin-Shalast on the other; the most substantial difference is that Xin-Shalast is ruled by Sorshen and the others are not.
Pretty sure that's just because she finds supplicants annoying at the best of times, and imagines/hypothesizes that prayers would be worse. Not because she's afraid of worshippers affecting her personality.
Gods forbid a girl try new things. I quite agree. But going from being the absolute autocrat of a nation who wants for nothing, with the power to decide who lives and who dies, to the absolute autocrat of a nation who wants for nothing, with the power to decide who lives and who dies, doesn't strike me as much of a change. If she'd kept living in obscurity in Korvosa, or retreated to an ascetic existence, or placed her power and knowledge at the disposal of others, I'd find her rather more sympathetic and earnest.
What was the issue with Sorshen to begin with? Being a Runelord entailed a lot of mass murder and enslavement as a matter of course. Sorshen decided to avoid starting up with that again not out of any realization that her actions were wrong but largely out of fear of the sticky ends her fellows met. And she was spectacularly successful in avoiding that outcome for herself, going above and beyond evading any negative consequences for her past deeds (not having to give anything up in reparation or as an earnest of her good faith) to maintaining or increasing her lavish lifestyle, personal and political power, and status. It comes across, at least to me, as a blatant exercise in narrative favor.
Hellknight PCs will put Sorshen to justice sooner or later!Hellknights removing the lawful and enduring ruler of a sovereign nation on her own soil? On someone else's soil. Sorshen's soil is about 500 miles south of the realm she's currently ruling. Which she is doing by right of conquest.
Wait a couple months, the next AP after Myth-Speaker wraps should have your answer.
Besides, if Cheliax isn't going to call upon Ravounel's military aid in a war against Andoran that basically everyone sees as a potentially existential threat to House Thrune, then pray tell, under what circumstances would they call upon them? They wouldn't and shouldn't. Ravounel's army, because of its composition, lack of training, lack of equipment, its units' cohesive principle (such as it is), and its leaders' lack of commitment to the overall cause, is anywhere from useless to actively counterproductive to deploy anywhere, because its units are more likely to dissolve, desert, or defect than they are to hold their position or advance under orders. Any place it is deployed is therefore a weakness the enemy is bound to exploit. Forcing it to fight by means of blocking detachments also weakens the overall effort, since those detachments could have simply been deployed to the front with less trouble and more effectiveness.
Oh, well then Ravounel is a complete non-factor, whatever side it's on, and ought not to be discussed further. The only reason for Cheliax to expend tremendous resources for the sake of mobilizing a militarily insignificant number of poorly-trained, worse-equipped, inexperienced, and otherwise ineffective soldiers across half a continent is petty cruelty, and while Cheliax has that in spades, questions of victory or defeat really should put that to the side in short order. Within the first few months or weeks.
Or at least force them to back both sides, while keeping their contributions to Andoran and the Hellbreaker's League clandestine. This is probably the limit to which they want to be involved anyway. Ravounel's state is not built to sustain anything like a total war, and its army is not built to do open offensive operations. Bunch of supplies disappearing through Dreamgate to Breechill though? Totally doable and completely deniable. They could have come from the Mwangi Expanse, or from Katapesh. And no, you can't send inspectors to check, that would be in violation of your treaty obligations wit Hell.
Nirmathas makes a poor ally to just about anybody, for reasons set forth in Spore War—they need aid badly and can offer very little in exchange. A few specialist trackers, and basing rights. Their inclusion in the Encarthan Alliance project was driven more by political considerations (Telandia's desire to bring every power with an Encarthan shoreline on board—a desire she and the Spore War PCs were, at least in default Golarion, not able to fulfill more than momentarily) than by material ones. What might, say, Nidal demand of Nirmathas? It's an interesting question to ponder.
More stuff from Battlecry! regarding the course of the Inner Sea War: This may be subject to a retcon later as Hellbreakers comes out, but Battlecry! presents the Hellbreakers League as allies of Andoran from before the war even kicks off. They "reached out to Andoran, bearing a long list of the Hellknight's offenses" shortly after taking up residence in Citadel Altarein, and it was apparently at their invitation that an Andoren ex-general infiltrated the town. Then, after the Battle of Hellknight Hill in which the Eagle Knights took Breechill, the League gifted the Eagle Knights their warshard. Cheliax mobilizes, nationalizes the Hellknight orders, and declares war upon Andoran after this.
With offensives between the Aspodell Mountains and the sea stymied by longstanding fixed fortifications, Abrogail's first moves are an offensive into Isger in support of Hedvend's government and against the Eagle Knights, and an attempt to blockade Augustana with the fleet in Ostenso. Andoran's retaliation will probably be something like moving the bulk of its army into Isger to reinforce the Eagle Knights (with the political aim of liberating Isger from Chelaxian vassalage and instituting a sister republic which will totally have home rule guys we promise), activating the rebel cell they've been cultivating in Ostenso to weaken the Chelaxian blockading squadron, and then attempting to break the blockade with a sortie from Augustana coordinated with an attack by the Almas home fleet. Meanwhile, the Hellbreakers League and the PCs associated with it may be variously acting as Andoren auxiliaries, using Alseta's Ring and other methods to seek other aid (both for the war effort and to counterbalance Andoren influence with other outside parties). They may find it in, say, Oprak and/or Ravounel. The first phase of the war probably ends with Cheliax kicked out of Isger and the state reconstituted under an Andoran protectorate, but with the Ostenso rebel faction crushed. The second phase of the war is subject to much more speculation, but likely sees it expanding in scope, with Molthune taking an opportunistic swipe at Isger, or Cheliax activating Nidal against Oprak, or both (since if Oprak is backing Isger it might attack Molthune either in retaliation or to link up with its ally overland as well as over the Stone Roads). Andoran may look to the Encarthan Alliance (read, Druma, Nirmathas, and Kyonin) for assistance against Molthune which was excluded from it, and to Rahadoum for direct intervention against Cheliax. At this stage, if Cheliax's reverses have been bad enough, it may start to see internal revolts from mutinies at the front to Hellknight coups to rebel and/or Great Master cult uprisings. These may succeed initially, or may provoke Hell to take power directly. Either way, Thrune Cheliax probably doesn't survive as such.
Which AP? There will be at least two set during the Hellfire Crisis. In the first and lower-level of these, Hellbreakers, the titular organization with which the PCs are associated is an irregular insurgent/revolutionary force not bound or protected by the rules of war, such as they are.
My main reason I want cheliax to have a victory or not be destroyed is simple, I want to punch fantasy nazis. and if cheliax is destroyed I can't punch fantasy nazis. Well, there's always Molthune (national socialism grew up in the soil of Prussian militarism, among other ingredients). Or you could send your players to Earth, where the current year in the Lost Omens Campaign Setting is 1930 and there are some bona fide Nazis in need of punching.
I think a powerful unliving god might accelerate things a bit. Perhaps if Walkena were the only such, and was not opposed by others or by similarly puissant beings. But he is not the only such, and he is so opposed. Generally speaking, Golarion's history moves slower than ours, with processes taking anywhere from about twice as long to about ten times as long to work out.
I wonder does Battlecry have anything on Geb v Nex or Taldor v Qadira? Battlecry!: Not really. It does devote some attention to Vidrian vs. Mzali, Edasseril vs. Eurythnia, and Molthune vs. Nirmathas though. With some odd omissions alliance-system-wise. The Encarthan Alliance is a non-factor in succoring Nirmathas against the dual threats of Molthune and the Gravelands despite the beginning and epilogue of Spore War. Senghor and Ravounel are non-factors in assisting Vidrian against Mzali.
It also suggests that Kelesh is due for a threat from the Grass Sea steppe.
I feel we're overdue a Lost Omens: Golden Road, at the very least... but I don't feel wronged by its absence!but they also haven't done one about the revolutionaries in Katapesh, either, and I don't interpret that as any kind of condemnation.I do! :D No, you feel wronged by the absence of Lost Omens: Arcadia :P (I'm just kidding, if the emoticons weren't clear.)
Like the outcome of the War should be that Isger is free from both Cheliax and Andoran. Agreed, regardless of whether "should" is meant in the "ought to be" sense or "is likely to be" sense, or both. Or, if not the outcome of the Inner Sea War, then the outcome of the Hellbreakers AP, which covers only part of the war's geographic and temporal (and power-level) scope.
Like I understand "cheering for the guy you know is the bad guy" perspective from like parallel to professional wrestling, but at least "freeing Isger from Cheliax" is a good story to tell since otherwise they bother to tell any story about Isger except "it's a client state of Cheliax." There's the ongoing goblinoid national awakening and possible development of a plurinationalism in Isger that both Cheliax and Andoran have worked to put down in the past (and which moreover could contrast favorably with Opraki and Hongali national-militarism). Battlecry! alludes somewhere to goblin Isgeris fearing the consequences of Chelaxian mustering in the west, including inciting their human neighbors to pogrom. EDIT: Yeah, found it.
Battlecry!, at *205: These Hellknights plan to meet in Logas, an Isgeri town on the border with Cheliax. Together with other Hellknights, there is an eventual promise of armies from Cheliax and Isger. Goblins in the nearby Chitterwood panic as these forces begin to move, knowing the town's residents would leap at an opportunity to wipe out their goblin neighbors once and for all.
House Thrune collapsing and Cheliax becoming "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" between a bunch of Hellknight warlords, a handful of diabolist cults, and whatever the Great Master turns out to be, might theoretically be an interesting angle to explore, but it requires destroying the Cheliax that currently exists in order to do so, and I happen to like the Cheliax as it is. Do you? Because Cheliax as it exists is a failing society propped up entirely by a brittle state run by chumps, and its more powerful foreign backers; and you seem to like something entirely different that only exists in your head.
tl;dr the issue wasn't trying to present nuanced morality, it was a close to the opposite - a massive premise/execution mismatch that presented deeply corrupt institutions as an objectively uncomplicated Good. The reverse—problematizing institutions which have hitherto been presented as objectively uncomplicated Good—is better. Andoran in particular is ripe for this, having even been problematized previously as a rising imperialist power (complete with a cartelized economy and an economistic trade union movement) and the aggressor. And its filling mass graves with conscripted or debt-enslaved Chelish soldiers is not that much better than filling mass graves with civilians; if Chelish society has any hope of regeneration, it lies in those conscripts and their class, and every battalion slain is one less battalion to fill the ranks of the revolution. Until there are insufficient numbers left and we're resigned to Hellknight-controlled islands in a Great Master-controlled sea. (Agents of Edgewatch's encouraging of PC strikebreaking was not unique, but was of a piece with Curse of the Crimson Throne and Serpent's Skull doing the same or worse.)
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