Ramoska Arkminos

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Mythic Toughness (monster feat)
Benefit : Gain hit points equal to HD x mythic level/rank.

It would certainly help.

Although those number look nuts (but are probably about right in reality), I think you're definitely on to something. There has to be a sweet spot between creatures being one-shot and lasting too long.
Trouble is it all depends on your group - for example, are you using the mythic rules as written or using the suggested nerfs, do you have 3,4,5 etc players as the more you have the more damage per round they will produce, have you given the monster duel initiative to increase their round by round action economy?
You see, although your suggestions are great, each group will have to use them differently.

The best way round MI is dispel magic.

The whole combat section of the core rules seeing how so many players appear to have not read it!

I used to feel like the OP, but for me it was getting over that hideous picture of a Bard in the 3.5 PHB.

Look at their spell list - it's just so bloody awesome I find it difficult to understand how anyone wouldn't want to use it. So much flavour, an element of uniqueness and very powerful used correctly. Bards are my favorite class now at all levels. My only negative feelings towards them would be some of the archetypes, which are horrible but you get to ignore them!

I prefer oratory, I like to inspire the party with tales of the weak or just plain weird overcoming adversity to win through against seemingly impossible adversaries. Stories about Booboo the mighty Shrew and his cohort Twitchy the mouse fighting off the advancing horde of Barbarian Orcs!

Raltus wrote:

Has anyone thought of just maybe using the Terrain and having the PCs make survival checks and such to be even able to stay in the Abyss and world wound for longer then a few hours at a time?

What about having them make hourly checks to resist the corruption of the abyss? Each time they fail then gain negatives to saves and start to lose some sanity, they can't "cure" this because it is the Abyss itself that is perverting them, They can leave the abyss for 24 hours to rest and be tended too. The longer they stay the more likely they are to be corrupted. Also each step into one of said Demon Lords Citadels doubles the saves they have to make.

We all know that the Demon lords are watching them come, make them more prepared so by the time they get to them they are weakened or they are so low on resources rock-et-tag becomes something they don't want to play.

Also if they bring NPCs with them (no idea if people's parties did) have them roll 2 saves per hour as they aren't "Mythic" and can't just resist such power. Irabeth fallen and turned into a Anti-Paladin would be hard on the party and on her wife.

I really like your idea. My only concern would be that under these contions the 15 minute adventuring day would become 10, and then 5 to compensate. If you were to add in a empowering effect for the demons then that would at least give the PC's a difficult decision to make once the effects start accumulating.

captain yesterday wrote:
memorax wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:

that 19 intelligence is for a Ranger without any Archetype that has a wisdom of 11, other then skill ranks what benefit does it give her?

the reason she put the highest stat in intelligence is because she's a smart girl and wants her characters to reflect herself (she is only 10 after all) i'm also sure i said we rolled our stats and use sub-optimal tactics, take it how you will.

I wish I could tell you why. To some not having every stat say 10-12 in is optimizing and min-maxing. Just be glad your not playing with them. I'm being told by a poster here that I cannot effectively roleplay if I want to build a effective (not min-maxed or optimized) character. My asking for Paizo to do a proper write up for npcs in the Wrath AP is a perfect example of my being a optimizer.

Its all good:) i suppose since the APs creators assume everyones using point buy and we roll then we are "optimized" personally i think they should assune the 20 point buy as default for the APs. they've been using it for PFS and its been working pretty good there, i assume, having never taken part myself:)

sorry if i seemed combative:)

I believe it's 15 for AP's but personally I think that makes mad classes struggle and encourages sad classes. 20 with a 16 cap makes for a more balanced playing field. YMMV of course.

I wouldn't say those feats were anything like useless but I tend to agree that MI is somewhat OP for its level. Trouble is, too many classes depend on it to survive low level play.

RoW sounds like what you're looking for.

Action economy is a thing.
We have 3 players. Having 5,6,7... is going to seriously reduce your ability to balance the AP without even getting into any other issues.

Look, if at whatever point in the AP you get to where a PC is one shotting a monster that is supposed to be something other than a mook you need to do some math and adjust the hit points to a point where the one shot doesn't happen.
This can be done by toning down the numbers like the way mythic power attack works as written and by inceasing the hit points to a point where X- damage is only a fraction of said monsters total life.

I know others have done this, as mentioned up thread but if it didn't work then you need to do it some more. Maxing hit points didn't work, OK let's try tripling them, if that still doesn't do it then multiply them by a factor of 5 etc. until you get to something like the level you want for your game.
A combination of mythic nerfing and hit points increasing should solve the one shotting that many have complained about. You just need to find the right balance for your group based on the type of characters/ players in it.

This thread is very much like those movies that are so bad/naff that they're actually good.

To the OP. Did you really think anyone would think it was evil?

Up - scale - hit - points.

There, now no more One-shotting. That wasn't very hard was it?

Either lower what you allow your players to do or up the hit points so the monsters don't die from one hit. Why is that so difficult for you?

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Some people actually role play...

If you have both the WHW hair and prehensile hair arcana you're OK for time usage.
You gain a lot, 15ft reach with enlarge person - no casting defensively issues. Constrict basically doubles your damage and is great on top of all the other debuffs. You can start off with a trip/spell charge/grab/constrict for even more debuffing.

Feedback on those has been pretty good but you may need to adjust them depending on your player's system mastery.

I think duel initiative is key because it improves monster action economy.

Power attack, steel soul + glory of Old trait, natural spell.

I'd use the 3rd array - has points where you most need them but without screwing yourself elsewhere.

Double or triple hit points - done.

There must be thousands of people playing this AP, I'm sure most are very happy with it. It's not perfect but neither are any of the others. You know you're players better than anyone here, roll with it and adjust if needed.
Remember, only a tiny percentage of pathfinder players/DM's even look at this site.

Go Strength, dex is a trap imo.
You want power attack.

Hexcrafter every time. That's HEXcrafter!

You get hexes! Awesome.

I'm playing one now with the 2 level dip in white haired witch and it rocks, debuffing the s#/t out of everything with 15ft reach, grab and constrict - damage output is very good and whatever you hit is going to be having a really, really bad day.

You need your player to be sensible too! I'm the Magus, Hexcrafter with white haired witch and I didn't take Slumber.
The bard is an archer, which put a lot of melee pressure on the monkey and me. The monkey isn't optimized.
We work as a team and help each other out.

Change the well highlighted problematic parts of mythic rules.

Then my answer would be yes. We're playing with 3 (Monk, Magus & Bard) and the encounters are challenging and fun. Note though we have no dedicated healer or full casters. I think 3 is the right number of PC's. If I run it in the future I will limit the game to 3.

seannoss wrote:

I couldn't imagine doing this AP without a dedicated healer or caster. Maybe the encounters would work as written then.

Types of DR don't really matter in this campaign as there are several ways to bypass any type of DR. That was fairly disappointing.

Our DM has given the scales some healing abilities.

The scales have 2 charges -
Pre mythic - 1 charge -swift action to heal self 1d8+5 or 2 charges to heal 1d8+5 to all allies within 20ft.
Post mythic - 1 charge plus 1 mythic point -swift action to heal 10 hit points per mythic tier or 2 charges plus 2 mythic points to heal 10 hit points in a 20ft.

Also we have a 3rd tier universal power available that grants 1 additional charge and boosts the healing to 10 points X (tier + 2). So at tier 3, if you take it, you would heal 50hp's per charge.
There isn't any way of regaining charges other than sleeping the night.

So far it's worked out pretty well, we've only had 1 death but that was res'ed via magic item.

Glad we're getting new spell lists after all the negativity over making them.

Seems to me that an increase in hit points above any you have already made could give some longevity to the encounters.

A few simple gr. dispel magic counters waiting to prevent, at least in the number of rounds, the PC's from dispelling everything so fast would give extra actions to the bosses. Give them all double initiative also.

DR/- would seem more effective than DR/mythic.

Talk to your players, because if I was one of them I would want the AP to continue with mythic - even if that meant a partial re-build to change out the problematic parts.

Player numbers, as you've mentioned, giving so many actions is clearly making your job all the more difficult. I'm in a group of just 3 players without any full casters (Monk, Magus & Bard) and even with 25pt characters we're finding the encounter challenging - mainly due to no full casters or natural healer. But we're having a blast.

Perhaps the best way to use this AP is to limit it to 3 players and also limit the classes available.

It's a Necklace of Adaptation, not an amulet ;)

It's no longer a magical effect, it's just rock.

I'd rule FoM doesn't work.

Touch of Bloodletting
Disfiguring Touch
Marids's Mastery
Bestow Curse
Sands of Time
Fleshworm Infestation
Forceful Strike
All the inflict spells.

Decent amount of options to have access to without multiclassing.

Giant Crawling Hands could make interesting librarians!

At mid/high level you're better off UMD-ing scrolls of Form of the Dragon 3.

Take 2 levels of White Haired Witch, with the prehensile hair you'll be able to attack and damage using INT and then add your INT again when using arcane accuracy to hit/grab, then constrict (take final embrace feat) leaving the monster grappled, shaken(enforcer feat), entangled and fatigued.

Make him a Dwarf - take Glory of Old trait.
Steel Soul
Iron Will
Improved Iron Will
Now he'll protect you without being prone to mind control and killing you all off!

Don't try to prove a point, just don't, it'll never end well.

Talk over the build possibilities that are very much more powerful than your current guy and explain that you didn't play them because of concerns over balance. If your DM wants to limit what you are currently doing, allow him some room to do that. Try to agree on something you're both happy with and move on.


This should be in the AP forum, not general advise.

True strike boosts your next attack, will it work to prevent an escape attempt!

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Few levels of Magus!

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In 3.5 you had to carry a golf bag of weapons to cover all the different possibilities!

Evil Outsider Bane
Spell Storing
Mythic Bane
would be my order of preference.

I was actually asking which mythic abilities you were considered!

Other options...
Ablative Barrier - increases the effects of healing on you.
Chain of Perdition - can cause havoc vs low CMD type foes.
Hold Person -
Heroism -
Phantom Steed.

If you're certain about your list my vote goes with Stinking Cloud.

What are your stats?

Our DM is using the crit/fumble cards - no option. At first I was like really? But now I can see this has been an excellent idea. It stops the crazy crit builds dealing crazy damage both sides of the screen.

Is it worth considering the alternate channels? I know it'll half the damage but with all the stat increases you could have an impressive save DC vs something like Daze?

Pick the weapon (it's more expensive) and take the upgradable power for cheap enhancement.

I picked my headband, I figured a 6/6/6 for 72k was too good not to take but I don't use a weapon so it was an easy choice in my case!

So at level 12 what do you think your channel will be doing damage wise?

Others will recommend Masterpieces but personally I think the cost is too high and I don't like them but others will swear by them!

1st level spells.
grease, feather step, liberating command, saving finale, silent image, vanish
2nd level spells.
allegro, cacophonus call, calm emotions, mirror image, resist energy, pilfering hand
3rd level spells.
arcane concordance, confusion, exquisite accompaniment, dispel magic, good hope, haste, see invisibility
4th level spells.
dimension door, freedom of movement, gr. invisibility, shout, virtuoso performance
5th level spells.
cloak of dreams, deafening song bolts, bard's escape, shadowbard

Don't be a small race. I recommend Aasimar to pump your inspire levels 1-8 and bladethirst thereafter with their favoured class bonus.

Aim towards getting 2 performances running at the same time so you can buff the party and buff your weapon.

Gr. Invisibility and Cloak of Dreams is a nice combo. Basically you sneak invisibly next to a monster - they have to save or sleep - you coup de grace them - rinse/repeat!

Bards are my favorite class, they get fantastic spell lists and the duelist shores up their normal frailty in melee. Pump Str and Cha at every opportunity. Have a 14 minimum in Con by level 8 and take toughness early. Take lingering performance to manage your rounds. Arcane Concordance is your friend (and the Witch will love you long time!).

I'm not a fan of inverted channel, either way using a higher level slot to damage or heal doesn't look that good.

Will you be using the legendary item to gain access to wizard spells? Which ones?
Which item is getting the love?

Will channel cut the mustard once you reach the late game?

Which Path do you intend on taking and what powers do you covet?

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