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There was a rebuilt cleric of Lamashtu that was turned into a summoner ** spoiler omitted **
Her Eidolon was a 'gift' from lamashtu, and all of her summon spells were 'birthed' imagine birthing a litter of fiendish centipedes or lemures
It was super dark and creepy and awesome! I wish I had done it in my campaign.
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
Oooh, really? I knew the character mentioned was a Lamashtu worshipper but I didn't know she was a summoner. That was actually one of my first summoner concepts - a full-bellied pregnant woman whose belly goes slack when her monstrous, horrific eidolon is summoned.
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The eidolon/summoner relationship is not clearly defined. Likely on purpose. If they really are always sentient slaves, then it's in my definition an evil class. If the eidolon retains free will, even if both the eidolon and the character are controlled by the same player, then it's a different story and I have no trouble with them having a relationship. If it's sometimes one and sometimes the other and sometimes something else entirely then it depends on the specifics of the case.
the iconic shows a little bit into eidolons. Basically, they're not any other kind of outsider, they have no form when not shaped by a summoner. They are thankful for this, and the eidolon's mind is already the same as the summoner before they make first contact.
As he stood on the precipice of the Void, Balazar wondered if perhaps he should have studied more diligently in the relative comfort of Quantium's academies. Reluctantly, he cast his gaze into the miasma and felt the weird energies of the Chasm worming their way into his mind. Worse, he heard whispering voices in the mists, calling out to him and begging him to step over the edge. At first he thought the voices to be those of his lost fellow gnomes, and called back to them one by one even as the color drained from his hair and he felt his mind slipping away. But the voices were not those of his friends. They belonged to… something else.It took all of Balazar's limited concentration to sift the many voices from each other. Some were angry, demanding to be left alone. Others beckoned with honeyed words of sweet oblivion. But one voice among the tumult spoke softly and plainly. "I will help you," it said in reassuring tones. "Give me form and allow me to leave this prison, and you and I will become as one."
With the hands of the fleshforge administrators on his shoulders, about to give the final push that would send him into nothingness, Balazar tried to imagine what the voice would look like. He dreamed of a creature with a vast serpentine body, with grasping talons and horrifying scales. And, perhaps because he had not eaten that day and was growing hungry, he imagined the voice speaking through the beak of a monstrous chicken. And then, just as he felt the muscles of his captors tense for the final push, the creature he had imagined emerged from the Void Chasm fully formed and fully real, screaming a hideous avian cry and weaving through the air with serpentine grace. Its claws tore at the necks of the administrators, its hideous beak making a mess of their unbelieving eyes. And all along, in reassuring tones only he could hear, it spoke to him. "Do not be afraid, little one," it said. "We were meant to be together."
Somehow, Balazar and the avian entity that called itself Padrig managed to win their way free of the fleshforges, of Ecanus, and even of Nex. As he fled up the eastern coast of Garund on a succession of merchant and smuggler vessels, Balazar and Padrig grew closer and closer to one another. Padrig explained that he was a bodiless being known as an eidolon, and that only Balazar could give him structure and form due to the affinity of their minds and souls. As the gnome made his way from Nex to Katapesh to Absalom, Balazar grew more and more adept at shifting Padrig's form to add more legs, terrible wings, or other features fitting the dangers and situations at hand. When things got too dangerous to be seen with a magical creature or when discretion was more important than protection, Balazar dismissed Padrig to some extraplanar hidey-hole, only to call him once again to his side when needed.
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The eidolon/summoner relationship is not clearly defined. Likely on purpose. If they really are always sentient slaves, then it's in my definition an evil class. If the eidolon retains free will, even if both the eidolon and the character are controlled by the same player, then it's a different story and I have no trouble with them having a relationship. If it's sometimes one and sometimes the other and sometimes something else entirely then it depends on the specifics of the case.the iconic shows a little bit into eidolons. Basically, they're not any other kind of outsider, they have no form when not shaped by a summoner. They are thankful for this, and the eidolon's mind is already the same as the summoner before they make first contact.
Although, again, we are dealing with a fey via the first worlder archetype, right? (seriously, is that right, or did the guy just say that it was like a fey so he could have his manic pixie girl?) We aren't sure if that works according to the same lore and fluff mechanics.
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Just sayin', he might have turned his eidolon into a hug pillow. Everybody likes cuddling.
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On of my many character concepts include some summoners.
Tippen: He firmly believes that his eidolon is the spirit of his departed sister. She takes the form of a vaguely humanoid female whose arms don't seem to attack at the shoulders. (Eventually the Eidolon starts to look like a cross between an angel and a valkyrie)
Trobriand: His Eidolon comes stomping out of some extraplanar forge. He rides it into battle leaving a trampled trail of destruction in his wake.
An Eidolon that is summoned 'fettered' and as it evolves, it breaks out of it's bindings, being able to function closer to it's 'full power'. (Think Harrison Bergeron meets the Evas from Neon Genesis Evangelion)
And the Lamashtu worshiping summoner whose Eidolon is a gift from their goddess who Births their Eidolon. (I'm totally going to try that in a campaign if the DM will let me.)
Or an eidolon that is assembled from various parts and pieces you cobble together. When it is 'killed' it collapses back into its constituent parts, and requires you to 'rebuild' it when you summon it again. (Physically looks like a construct, with some fantasypunk aesthetics/science fantasy thrown in, but still behaves in all ways like a normal eidolon.
I like the idea of being able to create your Eidolon friend.
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
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Eidolons have motivations as varied as any Outsider. A hedonistic Eidolon who wants to experience the pleasures of this world/plane of existence and sleeps with their summoner is entirely possible.
And as said before, the problem is the Player.
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Personally, I don't think it would be a huge deal so long as it was kept to a single quick and tasteful throwaway line. There's a huge difference between "After we set up camp my eidolon joins me in my tent." and "My eidolon, who's totally hot and has huge boobs, comes to my tent so I can bone her 'cause I'm awesome."
The eidolon/summoner relationship is not clearly defined. Likely on purpose. If they really are always sentient slaves, then it's in my definition an evil class. If the eidolon retains free will, even if both the eidolon and the character are controlled by the same player, then it's a different story and I have no trouble with them having a relationship. If it's sometimes one and sometimes the other and sometimes something else entirely then it depends on the specifics of the case.the iconic shows a little bit into eidolons. Basically, they're not any other kind of outsider, they have no form when not shaped by a summoner. They are thankful for this, and the eidolon's mind is already the same as the summoner before they make first contact.You've got to remember, though, that what's true for Padrig isn't necessarily true for all eidolons. Remember, Padrig's origin is the Void Chasm, which no one had been able to do anything with before Balazar, so other eidolons presumably have other origins, and thus might have different attributes...and we know there have been summoners and eidolons for a long time in Golarion (Sarkoris and its god-callers, for example).
In Ultimate Campaign's summoner backgrounds, for example, some of the more interesting ones to me are the one where your eidolon crashed between worlds in front of you, and you formed the bond as you aided them, and the one where your eidolon is the product of an attempt at raising a deceased loved one gone wrong, where they were fused with an outsider and became your eidolon.
And in chapter three of Ultimate Campaign, it also suggests that an eidolon might have been a natural creature warped by planar energies and banished from the material plane, or even a former adventurer who was lost in a disastrous mission to another plane...and that it might have an existence on another plane.
So, I don't think we can presume that Padrig's state of being is necessarily the default for an...
yeah but most of those aren't actually eidolons, but circumstances that mimic the mechanics of the summoner.
Eidolons are their own outsider, that have no form until it is given.
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When i saw this thread i had to read it.
...that was quite a weird image it gives me.
I have a character in a homebrew game who is married to his eidolon, and they have an Aasimar daughter together. Eidolons can have personality and individuality of their own. They're not mindless automatons.
My summoner has a lady friend relationship with him, totally with her own personality. She travels with him while he's awake, always.
So i totally agree, it's more dynamic than an animal companion that follows orders.
yeah but most of those aren't actually eidolons, but circumstances that mimic the mechanics of the summoner.
Eidolons are their own outsider, that have no form until it is given.
Uh...they're all called eidolons in the book, and if we're going to start questioning the usage of the term eidolon when specifically applied to the summoner, with only some instances actually being 'real' eidolons, it's going to be pretty difficult to have any sort of meaningful discussion. Besides, if all these not-eidolons-called-eidolons can still be bound by summoners and act like eidolons in all ways except for not being not-eidolons-called-eidolons, then your argument about what a summoner's relationship with their eidolon is going to be like only applies to summoners who have actual eidolons and not a not-eidolon-called-eidolon, and for all we know, any of these summoners could have a not-eidolon-called-eidolon instead of a real eidolon, depending on their backstory.
...personally, I vote that things called eidolons just be eidolons. When denying definition, things get confusing...
well, i'm talking about the eidolon that named itself an eidolon, as opposed to say some outsider that crashed down on a meteorite, or the crazy side effects of raising-your-wife-gone-wrong.
although technically I think the only lore we really have on the eidolon is from that iconic, so... ?
anyway this is the information I surmised up after I made a thread about what exactly an eidolon was.
well, i'm talking about the eidolon that named itself an eidolon, as opposed to say some outsider that crashed down on a meteorite, or the crazy side effects of raising-your-wife-gone-wrong.
although technically I think the only lore we really have on the eidolon is from that iconic, so... ?
anyway this is the information I surmised up after I made a thread about what exactly an eidolon was.
Well, that's probably because that was a narrative, and without narrative, there's no reason for an eidolon to call itself an eidolon...usually it's more important to describe its role or the role of its summoner, rather than inserting a piece of text in there somewhere where the eidolon calls itself an eidolon...kind of a waste of space, wouldn't you say?
At any rate, the only eidolon I know of that's really gone into in much depth is Ogoshae, Anya Jeggare's eidolon from the Rival Guide, which suggests that Ogoshae may have once been a devil, something from Hell, or something else altogether, the serpentine eidolon possessing faint memories of a time prior to his summoning, but having been twisted and changed by it.
Though, frankly, the fact that it is apparently unclear in the first place suggests to me at least that eidolons are a lot more varied in origin than you're trying to imply, since otherwise there would be a standard definition and there wouldn't be any possibility of it having once been a devil or whatnot...I think eidolons don't have a hard and fast origin or kind, an eidolon is something that has entered into the relationship of an eidolon with a summoner. In short, whether it's some amorphous abomination from a mysterious magical anomaly, a resurrection gone wrong, an outsider that was almost destroyed, or whatever, it's still an eidolon.
...plus, like I said, that stuff from Ultimate Campaign in chapter three was talking about eidolons in general, whereas Padrig is a specific example of an eidolon, so going by that, when you say eidolons in general may be this,...
except I think that most outsiders have a form already and can't change it. Meaning that if there are a diverse bunch of buddies that can turn into eidolons it would all be related some how. Possibly, something happens to an outsider and it loses it's form.
though like I said, it's entirely speculation. The reason I don't like that there isn't any explanation, is because we DO have a lot of knowledge on outsiders and their planes, but we don't have much of anything on eidolons, which makes me think that in general they are a mystery, not something that everyone with a degree in planar-magic even knows about. so i don't think the eidolon telling the summoner it was an eidolon was meant for the summoner. Being a narrative that sentence was actually for and to the reader, basically explaining something we know about but, something that he himself did not. The whole passage reads that Balazar doesn't actually have a clue what an eidolon was, and so it would be like me explaining to an alien race, that I am a human, so that he doesn't ask me what I was. for instance, the eidolons actual name was secondary informaion for the story and ended up as "...and the avian entity that called itself Padrig...".
I like the idea that the summoner is projecting a part of their own psyche. Sort of an invisible friend made manifest. The summoner is unaware of this, of course, and believes that the eidolon is a separate creature.
this is what happens to people with schizophrenia in magical worlds.
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It could be an act of good. He's giving her an opportunity to play, rather than just work. He's expressing his affection/love for her in a way that the rest of the party refuses to share. And he's potentially providing her sustenance in a very selfless manner, literally giving of himself.
I joined a game at a local game store with some player not in my regular group and one was playing a summoner who had a fey type Eidolon, described as an female elf with wings or a large pixie. I thought nothing of it until night when we made camp and The summoner brought his Eidolon into his tent and he had it sleep with him.
So is having sex with a humanoid looking Eidolon Ok, evil, or maybe just a little weird?
This isn't an evil action. Hell, most Calistrian outsiders will probably rape someone before killing them, and they are only chaotic neutral.
One thing about Eidolons: they are allowed to refuse to do something. They are not dominated by the summoner, but instead are willing to throw themselves in harm's way to aid or protect their ally. Think of summoners as having the mutual interest of both parties (Summoner and Eidolon) wanting to get stronger, and therefore this outsider that the summoner has closely bound to himself is more or less using him so it can continue to be active on the prime material.Sex is something that comes up a lot in literature, and seeing how the summoner's eidolon can say no, there isn't a problem with what is happening. Having sex with an outsider is not evil, for if it were then Aasimar with be burned at the stake for being the spawn of unholy unions.
Though, kudos if, at some point the Summoner is killed, he rolls another Summoner of his race with the Half-Celestial/Fiendish template depending on the Summoner's alignment.
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It could be an act of good. He's giving her an opportunity to play, rather than just work. He's expressing his affection/love for her in a way that the rest of the party refuses to share. And he's potentially providing her sustenance in a very selfless manner, literally giving of himself.
She joins him in his tent, to play dice and card games after a day of work.
The party have dirty minds.
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The Eidolon/Summoner relationship is up to the player with some imput from the GM or other players in a home/private game. Since the relationship is left vague, it is easy to come up willing lovers or a married couple as a concept.
I for one love the idea of aasimar/tiefling children of such a union as brillant.
This idea may blindside other players used to seeing an eidolon as something akin to an animal companion.
But it's just that player being blindsided by someones elses character concept.
It's not really the problem of the summoner player in question and unless either party makes it a problem i.e. summoner player plays it up in a non family friendly way in a public game (i.e. want to share, 5 gp) or the player caught off guard makes a big issue of bad/wrong/fun, it should not be a problem.
It is not, in and of itself, evil, wish fullfillment, immature, mastrubation or whatever and witholding judgement is a good idea. That doesn't mean a player can't make it any of those above things. It can also be pretty cool.
Eidolons: Outside the linear obedience and intelligence scale of sentient and nonsentient companions are eidolons: intelligent entities magically bound to you. Whether you wish to roleplay this relationship as friendly or coerced, the eidolon is inclined to obey you unless you give a command only to spite it. An eidolon would obey a cruel summoner's order to save a child from a burning building, knowing that at worst the fire damage would temporarily banish it, but it wouldn't stand in a bonfire just because the summoner said to. An eidolon is normally a player-controlled companion, but the GM can have the eidolon refuse extreme orders that would cause it to suffer needlessly.
The wording entails that the Eidolon obeys willingly and has the ability to refuse to do something that it really does not want to do. It will do things, such as running into a burning building, so long as there is a reason for it.
Don't expect Paizo to just come out and specifically define in a legal document the limitations of the summoner eidolon relationship.
The telepathic link between summoner and eidolon is what enables one player to control them both -- since they can literally read each other's minds, they can coordinate their actions perfectly.
But there is no reason for it to be clear cut who is in charge. Just because the summoner most likely has superior mental stats does not mean that he necessarily dominates the eidolon. Each has their own advantages in the relationship -- the summoner is usually in full control of when the eidolon is present or absent with him, but when the eidolon is absent, it goes to a place that the summoner cannot go.
I noticed the aspect thing too, but even your passage seems to suggest that the form before you IS the Eidolon for all intents and purposes. Like if you used, gate to summon your Eidolon it would still look like your Eidolon when summoned normally.
There are cases of course where an identity could be used as a role over time. the easy one is Father/Mother. it's both an identity and a role that can be filled by someone who does not actually fit into that identity.(and has the same language pitfalls when trying to explain to someone that you are someones father, but not really, like if you adopted someone).
so yes, they're still CALLED Eidolon's but I don't think they ARE Eidolons(I haven't been arguing that you can't do what you've been explaining from UC). I have a feeling we'll have some explanation, and I hope it isn't just that some guy latches his soul onto any outsider.
also, this resistance to Eidolons being any outsider stems from the "what is an Eidolon thread" while I was thinking about making my Eidolon a fire elemental.
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This thread is very much like those movies that are so bad/naff that they're actually good.
To the OP. Did you really think anyone would think it was evil?
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This thread is very much like those movies that are so bad/naff that they're actually good.
To the OP. Did you really think anyone would think it was evil?
About a year ago, I mentioned lovers as a Summoner concept. I did it quite naively, because, well, it didn't occur to me that someone would see it as bad/wrong/sick. Needless to say I kicked up a lot of dirt.
I can totally see someone doing the reverse.
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^ This stuff is why Rule 0 exists. GM like a man and put your foot down and if you're a player build a bridge and get over it.
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"But—My Blademaster father trained me to use scimitars after he found out I had a conscious, and then I ran away from Menzoberranzan for the surface. Now, everyone hates me! Good thing I'm friends with a handful of kings or I'd be in trouble."
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I have a Summoner I started and was thinking of a Fey Eidolon. this has given me an Idea. Having the Summoner and his Eidolon act like an Old Married couple. having the Eidolon say things like What you got soup on your shirt again, how am I supposed to wash it out here in the woods, and Not tonight Hun, my Back still hurts from being wacked by that Ogre.
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He must get her through a dungeon unscathed to get the prize.
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I'm notorious for this build, and yes I do use the daily transmogrify.
It was played 'fade to black' and although the group I was in was initially shocked and juvenile about it, it did serve as a perfect tool to get the group thinking about the game in a way other than just the crunchy side of things... it became an immersive world because I was paying attention to an aspect of my character that made him 'believable' and not an aspect of my character that was 'bringing out the dps'... A welcome change for any gm that has had to deal with the Crunchkin munchkin kalis and tramplepouncers....
Thats the one thing that i've noticed about running the build. No matter how clean you want to keep it, the vast majority of players will take it in their heads to the worst ends every single time. They're the one's who have placed the limitations on their imagination that this build can only be an evil kinky nonconsentual DOM relationship or something squiky... But thats them being the creepy perverts...
But they'll call you the creepy pervert 10 times out of 10 for suggesting it, all the while suggesting things that you could try that are far more squicky than you ever have intended for your own character...
You may want a close and loving relationship with your eidolon but the second you try to do the one thing that loving couples do that illicits giggles from the 9 year olds trapped in 30 year old bodies... well... all I'm saying is using this build is a great way to find out what kind of players everyone *else* at the table is.
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As long as it's consensual it's not evil. Just weird. The question is does the Eidolon truly have the capacity for consent.
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I like your question as a 'thought experiment or a philosophical discussion about the nature of consent' but not as a game element... As a game element at level 6 the eidolon does get 'devotion'... Now devotion itself is a word with a broad spectrum of possible meanings. The argument is why is one version of that meaning being brought into question.
The nature of the bond between the eidolon and the summoner *can* be *played* as coercive, but a coerced eidolon in fact *isnt possible*. The origin story of the pathfinder posterboy for the class is an excellent example that the relationship between a summoner and his eidolon wasnt coercive on the summoner's part at all.
In the end the very nature of the eidolon appearing in the first place is that it's contingent on that eidolon being the kind of entity that consented to the bond in the first place. 'The eidolon appears as whatever the summoner envisioned' and if the unbound eidolon was the kind of eidolon that wouldn't consent to being a buxom paramour then the bond would never have been created that resulted in a 'summoner character' to begin with. You'd have a zero level character who was still searching for his special eidolon kindred spirit.
A summoner could be searching for the kind of eidolon that will demonically help him take over the world and it is implicit in the fact that he has an eidolon that when he put out the call, a world conquering eidolon picked up the phone and said 'lets work to the same purposes, friend!!!'
It is implicit in the class that the eidolons goals match the goals of the summoner or the summoner doesnt HAVE an eidolon. The fact that the summoner has an eidolon defacto implies that they are in agreement about the nature of their bond or there is no eidolon at all.
The summoner grew up passionately pursuing the 'magical boy/girlfriend from beyond' and when he/she hit first level, its because an entity on the other end of the phone decided that being a 'magical paramour from beyond' fit the bill... When the summoner set out to have a 'companion who loves me in all ways both platonic and carnal'... Consent was inherent in them becoming the summoners eidolon in the first place. Welcome to level 1. A player playing that kind of character isn't necessarily the one who's the creepy pervert for wanting to play that character. Unless wanting a companion who loves you in all ways both platonic and carnal is, in itself, evil.