Would this work as written (and Mythic) with 3 PCs?


Wrath of the Righteous


Asked this in the 'A failed AP' thread, but that's really not the right place for it, so asking here:

There's a lot of comments about the AP being far too easy once the PCs start getting mythic abilities.

Would this AP work better as written (with mythic) but with only 3 PCs? (normally play with 5, but thinking maybe this would be a good AP for the weeks where some people can't make it).


With how much Mythic multiplies power, I wouldn't be surprised if you could steamroll the entire campaign with a single character upon receiving Mythic powers.

Of course, one of the reasons is the fact that a lot of the encounters in the books tend to be throwaway encounters that have very little or no chance of ever harming a PC. A good example of this is book 6, when you're expected to reach level 20 with 10 Mythic tiers. Out of all the encounters in that book, only three are CR 25 or above (I may be wrong, this is off the top of my head) and there are an alarming amount of creatures that are below CR 20, which realistically cannot harm a PC at all at that level, even without some of the excessively powerful Mythic abilities.

If you want game balance, you'd be better off taking a look at and adjusting some of the big power abilities in Mythic. Abilities that allow you to multiply damage together are the biggest offenders (Mythic Vital Strike, Mythic Improved Critical, Mythic Power Attack) but some other things are also be absurdly strong, like Mythic Improved Initiative, or the ability that Archmages and Heirophants have that allow you to apply the high end metamagic feats without needing higher level spell slots.

Another way is to just use the non-Mythic suggestions that the campaign gives you. This way is probably the way that involves the least amount of work, and does not really reduce the epicness of the story. You don't really need the rules to make a campaign feel mythic, you just need the right story.


I mainly was asking because one of the players went as far as to buy mythic adventures, and I think the main reason he'd be interested in this AP is that its the one made for those rules (and he might not be interested in the suggestion of playing a non-mythic character in it).

It *really* sounds like a lot of work to make mythic work in another AP, just seeing if there's a way to salvage it in this one without banning a whole bunch of feats or doing the 3x/4x HPs for enemies changes... Was hoping that fewer PCs would be enough of a change, but having never played mythic, wasn't sure how bad it was.


Change the well highlighted problematic parts of mythic rules.

Then my answer would be yes. We're playing with 3 (Monk, Magus & Bard) and the encounters are challenging and fun. Note though we have no dedicated healer or full casters. I think 3 is the right number of PC's. If I run it in the future I will limit the game to 3.


You need your player to be sensible too! I'm the Magus, Hexcrafter with white haired witch and I didn't take Slumber.
The bard is an archer, which put a lot of melee pressure on the monkey and me. The monkey isn't optimized.
We work as a team and help each other out.


stuart haffenden wrote:

Change the well highlighted problematic parts of mythic rules.

Then my answer would be yes.

Main thing for me is that not having played with mythic, I'm bound to not figure out all of what feats not to use or what other problem areas there are.. Most recommendations are along the lines of "I ban [list of 3 or 4 powers] and other overpowered ones".

Odd thing that the mythic adventure hardcover book gets such good ratings but the reviews/forum for the only adventure path to use them goes in detail about it being unplayable as written.

Guess its good for reading but not actual playing? :/


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Pretty much, yes. The developers apparently did not bother to math out damage output beyond tier two or give any thought to how the different abilities would interact with each other or how their system of "a mythic feat is 90% an upgrade of an existing one, so that kinda predetermines which mythic feats get taken" would result in most characters taking stuff like Mythic Power Attack or Mythic Improved Critical and those just happen to be some of the very best mythic feats to take. And they did not take a single look at how PC damage output compares to monster HP. Because if they had taken that single look, we wouldn't have situations where player characters one-shot demon lords.


Double or triple hit points - done.

There must be thousands of people playing this AP, I'm sure most are very happy with it. It's not perfect but neither are any of the others. You know you're players better than anyone here, roll with it and adjust if needed.
Remember, only a tiny percentage of pathfinder players/DM's even look at this site.


Here's the thing. Mythic Adventures is a good book! The ability to enhance lower-level characters is great! It gives them some extra survivability and some nice abilities without immediately pushing them to higher levels. And it reduces some of the limitations of lower-level play as well. So if you have Mythic 8th level characters with only one or two tiers? You'll have a challenging and enjoyable game!

But at higher levels things break down faster. Mind you, a number of people have talked about how high-level play tends to be rocket-tag and is broken in any event... but it is especially so once you throw Mythic into play.

(And that might actually be interesting to try - a Mythic campaign (not WotR, mind you) that goes to Tier 10... but only level 10. It might not be nearly as broken at that point... and would be an interesting experiment at the very least.)

From what I've seen it appears that WotR suffers from several faults and one is not the underestimation of the Tiers so much as the underestimation of high level characters themselves. If four optimized non-Mythic 20th level characters could finish the AP successfully then doesn't this suggest the monsters themselves were underpowered? Just food for thought.

Silver Crusade

Well to make this short, the adventure suffers from every problem every other adventure path has. This means throwaway encounters and a slew of other things (subsystems, and that one thing in book 5, thats about as bad as the Mass Effect 3 Ending...if you believe some people).

What makes this just worse, is that mythic tiers tend to multiply that problem (even if I can see some very good ways for mythic to solve problems).

Reducing the number of players certainly helps, but I would suggest the following changes:

Remove the increased damage on a critical hit from mythic power attack (it makes high crit range weapons even better and creates those damage spikes) and change it, so that expending a point of mythic power only halves the attack penalty.

Limit the additional damage from mythic vital strike to 2 times the normal value, the additional damage is not increased on a critical hit, and you can use vital strike only one per round.

Remove the ability Titans Bane, cut it out of your book and burn it.

Make sure, that the ability Channel Power stacks with nothing, not mythic spells, not the ability to increase the DC by spending more mythic power… nothing.

Add that you can’t allocate two mythic ability increases in a row, to the same stat.

15 point buy or 20 points without stats under 10.

And change the enemies a whole damn lot. Mythic characters are supposed to feel awesome, and they should get to be awesome against “regular” enemies, but truly mythic enemies should pose a credible threat to mythic groups.

Silver Crusade

stuart haffenden wrote:

Double or triple hit points - done.

There must be thousands of people playing this AP, I'm sure most are very happy with it. It's not perfect but neither are any of the others. You know you're players better than anyone here, roll with it and adjust if needed.
Remember, only a tiny percentage of pathfinder players/DM's even look at this site.

Almost forgot that one, but I would temper that suggestion a bit:

Adventure 1 maximum hit points for enemies once players hit level 3, and once they are mythic scale it from 1.5 maximum hit points to 3-4 time maximum hit points.

Tangent101 wrote:

Here's the thing. Mythic Adventures is a good book! The ability to enhance lower-level characters is great! It gives them some extra survivability and some nice abilities without immediately pushing them to higher levels. And it reduces some of the limitations of lower-level play as well. So if you have Mythic 8th level characters with only one or two tiers? You'll have a challenging and enjoyable game!

But at higher levels things break down faster. Mind you, a number of people have talked about how high-level play tends to be rocket-tag and is broken in any event... but it is especially so once you throw Mythic into play.

(And that might actually be interesting to try - a Mythic campaign (not WotR, mind you) that goes to Tier 10... but only level 10. It might not be nearly as broken at that point... and would be an interesting experiment at the very least.)

From what I've seen it appears that WotR suffers from several faults and one is not the underestimation of the Tiers so much as the underestimation of high level characters themselves. If four optimized non-Mythic 20th level characters could finish the AP successfully then doesn't this suggest the monsters themselves were underpowered? Just food for thought.

I agree wholeheartedly, a few tiers of mythic change the game for the better.

And to be honest, the mythic ruleset seems ideal for a Highlander type game, where powerful creatures and characters roam the land. In the scope of a traditional campaign, it can be hard to justify the existence of enemies capable of threatening the players. Wrath kinda hard waves this problem with the existence of the crystals (kinda like Final Fantasy ^^).


Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

And change the enemies a whole damn lot. Mythic characters are supposed to feel awesome, and they should get to be awesome against “regular” enemies, but truly mythic enemies should pose a credible threat to mythic groups.

Thanks for the advice. For enemies, I was going to use Scorpion's statblocks (whenever we do play it, might be awhile).


Feedback on those has been pretty good but you may need to adjust them depending on your player's system mastery.

I think duel initiative is key because it improves monster action economy.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Its hard to call Mythic Adventures a good book as it has so many flaws. There are good parts to it but I wouldn't call it good.

I suspect that Scorpion's blocks would be able to easily handle a group of three PCs. Not all of the issues with mythic is the PCs power, the PCs can't take mythic damage either. Just give every creature dual initiative and mythic power attack and you'll see how short fights will be.

Silver Crusade

stuart haffenden wrote:

Feedback on those has been pretty good but you may need to adjust them depending on your player's system mastery.

I think duel initiative is key because it improves monster action economy.

Yeah, more actions are vital especially for fights where the players are in the majority. The ability to just block an enemy attack ranks a close second in my book.

Seannoss wrote:

Its hard to call Mythic Adventures a good book as it has so many flaws. There are good parts to it but I wouldn't call it good.

I suspect that Scorpion's blocks would be able to easily handle a group of three PCs. Not all of the issues with mythic is the PCs power, the PCs can't take mythic damage either. Just give every creature dual initiative and mythic power attack and you'll see how short fights will be.

Yes, the scaling attack/defense is all over the place, just like pathfinder without mythic.

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