Advanced Class Guide Preview: Shaman

Tuesday, July 29, 2014

For many years now, roleplaying games have used the term shaman to mean a lot of different things. Most often, the term is used to describe the spiritual leader of a primitive people or tribe. The shaman would commune with the spirits to beseech them for aid or guidance. The only problem with this was that it did not closely match any of the classes we have in the game. Until now.

In the early days of the Advanced Class Guide, the shaman joined the list of classes that would appear in the book. It seemed like a no-brainer, a hole in our assortment of fantasy concepts that needed to be filled. As with the other classes, figuring out which two classes the shaman would draw from turned out to be the tricky part. The shaman wanted a connection to the divine, a connection to nature, and a connection to some of the more dark aspects of magic. Although we finally settled on pulling mechanics and concepts from the oracle and the witch, the druid was also a very strong contender for adding parts to the class.


Illustration by Subroto Bhaumik

The first draft of the shaman gave us a class that had hexes like a witch and a new concept called spirits. These work a lot like oracle mysteries, but they are a little more limited. This is made up for by the fact that at higher levels you can commune with a second spirit each day. While the first is set when you take your first level of shaman, the second is “wandering”, meaning that you can change it each day when you prepare your spells. So while your primary spirit helps define your character and its personality, the second can become a sort of “flavor of the day”, giving you a choice of mechanical options and a way for you to shift your personality too!

The playtest told us a lot about the shaman. While the first draft of the class used the cleric spell list, we tried something radically different with the second draft, giving it an expanded version of the druid spell list. Neither quite met the needs of the class, which is why in the final version, you will find that the shaman has its own unique spell list. While much of this list is drawn from the cleric and the witch spell lists, there are a number of formerly druid-only spells finding their way into the shaman’s arsenal.

There are a number of other exciting changes for the final version of the shaman as well. We upped the number of hexes received to one every two levels, with the wandering hexes taking the place of the normal hex at 6th and 14th levels. To give you a wider breadth of options to choose from, the shaman now also includes a list of hexes available to all shaman’s regardless of their chosen spirit. While many of these will be familiar, there are a few new ones in here specifically tied to the shaman’s theme. Take a look.

Fury (Su): The shaman incites a creature within 30 feet into a primal fury. The target receives a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls and a +2 resistance bonus on saving throws against fear for a number of rounds equal to the shaman’s Wisdom modifier. At 8th and 16th level, these bonuses increase by 1. Once a creature has benefited from the fury hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours.

Shapeshift (Su): The shaman transforms herself into another form for a number of minutes per day equal to her level, as alter self. This duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be spent in 1-minute increments. Changing form (including changing back) is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. At 8th level, this ability works as beast shape I. At 12th level, this ability works as beast shape II. At 16th level, this ability works as beast shape III. At 20th level, this ability works as beast shape IV.

Of course, you will also find a number of fun new archetypes to play when creating a shaman character. There is the animist, who can communicate with the hostile spirits causing her allies discomfort and cause them to depart. You could play a possessed shaman, who allows the spirits to inhabit her body and can draw upon their knowledge. There is the spirit warden, who battles against undead spirits, using channel energy to send them to their final rest. Finally, there is the witch doctor, who can heal creatures like a cleric and can counter spells with a hex ability!

Well, that about wraps it up for the shaman. Next week, we will be previewing the last of the 10 new classes in the Advanced Class Guide, the hunter!

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

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Tags: Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Shaman Subroto Bhaumik
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Shadow Lodge

Cheapy wrote:
Raymond Lambert wrote:
The ear priest was my style but the mechanics were too weak.

Ear priest is OP.

But seriously, I don't recall comments saying the shaman was too weak. I recall there being some about how bipolar the powerlevel was between Mysteries, but not that it was too weak over all.

This is definitely higher up on my list of classes I'm excited for!

This is really what I want to see fixed over all. I wasn't a fan of how some of the spirits were just out an out superior while the rest were just junk since many of them were just oracle mysteries that weren't changed to account for the wandering spirit abilities.

Hopefully this has gotten a nice heavy overhaul since the open playtest.


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You used witch doctor correctly! :)

Liberty's Edge

Blackvial wrote:
The Red Mage wrote:
That shaman is totally about to tip over.
maybe she's a little tipsy?

If she's anything like a real world shaman, she's definitely tipsy.


I like that there is a Shaman. I can't see myself ever playing one, but it's really important for me for world building and NPCs. Interested to see the mechanics. Though I DO use 3.5 mechanics, so I always had one to use, I never cared for the 3.5 version- so hopefully paizo's is a tad bit better.

Liberty's Edge

I'm still a little less than thrilled with there being a Class named Shaman since I'd expect many shamans to be Druids, Witches, Adepts, or Oracles and that can get confusing.

That said, I'm liking the sound of this Class as much as I ever like full casters, and am thus looking forward to it (if not nearly as much as I'm looking forward to, say, the Investigator).

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

Jim Groves wrote:
Crystal Frasier wrote:
Yay! My personal favorite new class is getting the spotlight this week!
It was mine too!

It's funny, when these classes were first revealed I didn't care for the Shaman, but after working on a spirit for the Golarion book, it's really grown on me. Not sure about favorite, I like the slayer and swashbuckler a whole bunch, but it's definitely one of my favorite spellcasting classes.


I miss Mark's previews :(


So does the wandering lore spirit still give you effective access to the entire wizard spell list, albeit at a slight cost in terms of being MAD?


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DeciusNero wrote:
I'm betting the Hunter is a female elf.

Female? Yes. Elf? No (they already have a female elf iconic, Merisiel).

Here's a low-light picture of the entire line-up.


Still not super interested in the Shaman, but it doesn't seem bad.

Though I want to play a Witch Doctor just so I can name him Ting Tang and have everyone at the table constantly groan.


GentleGiant wrote:
DeciusNero wrote:
I'm betting the Hunter is a female elf.

Female? Yes. Elf? No (they already have a female elf iconi, Merisiel).

Here's a low-light picture of the entire line-up.

Either human or half-elf, Paizo has a giant boner for half-elves.

Also, just sayin', Paizo currently has two elf Iconics, Merisiel the Rogue and Damiel the Alchemist.


Ashram wrote:
GentleGiant wrote:
DeciusNero wrote:
I'm betting the Hunter is a female elf.

Female? Yes. Elf? No (they already have a female elf iconi, Merisiel).

Here's a low-light picture of the entire line-up.

Either human or half-elf, Paizo has a giant boner for half-elves.

Also, just sayin', Paizo currently has two elf Iconics, Merisiel the Rogue and Damiel the Alchemist.

Yes, two elves, one presenting as female, one presenting as male.

Same as with dwarves (when the shaman iconic is released on Thursday), gnomes, halflings etc.


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Relevant.


This was the class I was most excited to hear about at the beginning of the playtest...and the one I was most disappointed in by the end of the playtest.....here's hoping the final version evolved into something unique ;)


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Shaman Preview wrote:
While much of this list is drawn from the cleric and the witch spell lists, there are a number of formerly druid-only spells finding their way into the shaman’s arsenal.

Shut up and take my money.

I've been wanting a spell list like that pretty much since the witch came out.

- Torger


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I wonder how many hexes will be usable by both the Witch and the Shaman. There is a significant dearth of non-sucky non-combat hexes...Shapeshift is a definite step in the right direction (especially if witches can use it as well).

Liberty's Edge

Just because they have a female elf Iconic, does not preclude a second one. That said from the picture I think that it is unlikely to be an Elf.

Contributor

The last two are probably female dwarf and female halfling, since those are the only two core race / gender combinations that aren't represented by the Iconics yet.

I'm guessing that the Hunter will be a halfling with either a wolf or dog companion and the Shaman is a dwarf.

Liberty's Edge

Alexander Augunas wrote:

The last two are probably female dwarf and female halfling, since those are the only two core race / gender combinations that aren't represented by the Iconics yet.

I'm guessing that the Hunter will be a halfling with either a wolf or dog companion and the Shaman is a dwarf.

Uh...the Arcanist is a Halfling. The Shaman is a Dwarf from the art...while the Hunter is a pretty redheaded human (or possibly Half-Elf...though that's highly unlikely given that we have three Half Elves already, two of them female) with a wolf.


Alexander Augunas wrote:

The last two are probably female dwarf and female halfling, since those are the only two core race / gender combinations that aren't represented by the Iconics yet.

I'm guessing that the Hunter will be a halfling with either a wolf or dog companion and the Shaman is a dwarf.

Alex, you missed out on the Arcanist preview then, because the Iconic Arcanist, Enora, is a female Halfling.


What kind of penalties to Escape Artist rolls does she get for having all those straps hanging off her?

I'm really excited about the class, though. I like that it has the good stuff of the Oracle without having to put up with a curse, and it has more flexibility.


Shaman-specific spell list! Awwww yeah. If Chain of Perdition is not on that list, I will be just a little less overjoyed. But that's okay.

Shapeshift has pretty slow progression, but it seems like a very nice Wandering Hex option. Stealth, disguise, or a usually-stackable bonus to strength. Alter Self is pretty cool that way, and changing form as a standard action (without wasting the rest of the minute) really makes using it as a disguise handy.

Fury… the thing that interests me is the Wisdom rounds. Good. This intrigues me.

So far, it looks like I'll take vanilla over any of the archetypes for anything but an undead campaign. Nothing extra-cursy? No calling down of dark, primal spirits? Well, if it's not in this, there will be another book with it. Had to make room for those spells!


Hm.... This class looks interesting. Between this and the witch I think I have my new favorite full casters (I love the flavor that oozes from the witch and her hexes!)


Cheapy wrote:
Raymond Lambert wrote:
The ear priest was my style but the mechanics were too weak.

Ear priest is OP.

But seriously, I don't recall comments saying the shaman was too weak. I recall there being some about how bipolar the powerlevel was between Mysteries, but not that it was too weak over all.

This is definitely higher up on my list of classes I'm excited for!

“bipolar the powerlevel” is nothing new so I’m not sure why people were so surprised or even upset.

Ceric domains, Witch Patrons, Cavalier Orders, Oracle Mysteries and Sorcerer‎ ‎Bloodlines‎ all suffers from this more or less. The shaman at least get two Mysteries and one of them is floating.

I was far from impressed by the Shaman at first. It just stroke me as pointless and unsexy a bit like the Hunter, Brawler, Skald and Slayer, but it (and the slayer) later grew on me.

I think the problem with the class at first was that with its cleric list and some hexes it didn’t seem special. Things got better when it got the druid list, spiced up with some cleric spell, but it still felt as it lacked its own identity. I hope its new spell list makes it unique.

Even though I wasn’t pleased with the design path they took with of the Skald, I still must admit it was a cool design decision that really made the Skald a unique class. I hope the Shaman ends up being equally unique. I think in the end it all comes down to the spell list. Also, I hope there are spells that protects the spirit animal or that there is an archetype without the pet.


Channel energy? Just positive or negative too? Either way, I want that!

Shadow Lodge

Please please please let me know if the druid will have a class retraining synergy with the shaman (for 5 days/prestige instead of 7).


Good job, Paizo! A caster I actually like! That's a first since the Oracle.

The Witch Doctor sounds perfect for my playstyle too!

Dark Archive

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JoelF847 wrote:
I've been wanting to play a possessed shaman ever since reading Gregory Keyes' Waterborn books.

I love those books. Time to dig them out for a reread.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Am I the only one who is a little sad to hear that the Shaman got her own spell list? My reasoning is, if the class was to be allowed to choose spells from other lists, then spells from many of the Player Companions, Campaign Setting books, etc, would all be fair game. With the Shaman having a custom spell list, we won't be able to pick interesting spells from those books unless the developers specifically included them in the list. I'm sure in future books, spells will have things like "Shaman 3" right next to the Cleric and Witch in the spell description, but it severely limits the CURRENT spells that can be used, that's all.

Overall, though, I'm excited to see the Shaman in the final book!


Deadmanwalking wrote:

I'm still a little less than thrilled with there being a Class named Shaman since I'd expect many shamans to be Druids, Witches, Adepts, or Oracles and that can get confusing.

Plenty of precedents though...you can be a fighter, barbarian, and rogue, without actually having levels in those specific classes


Glad we're getting new spell lists after all the negativity over making them.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
cartmanbeck wrote:

Am I the only one who is a little sad to hear that the Shaman got her own spell list? My reasoning is, if the class was to be allowed to choose spells from other lists, then spells from many of the Player Companions, Campaign Setting books, etc, would all be fair game. With the Shaman having a custom spell list, we won't be able to pick interesting spells from those books unless the developers specifically included them in the list. I'm sure in future books, spells will have things like "Shaman 3" right next to the Cleric and Witch in the spell description, but it severely limits the CURRENT spells that can be used, that's all.

Overall, though, I'm excited to see the Shaman in the final book!

It also really limits 3rd party usage as well. Deep Magic is going to need an update, at the very least.


Edit
I can see your point, but sticking to only cleric or only druid would have made the class bland and it would also cause some other problems.

It's up to 3rd party publicers (and Paizo camping setting product line) to update their products. Paizo cant very well release a bland class just to please 3rd parties.


Kvantum wrote:
cartmanbeck wrote:

Am I the only one who is a little sad to hear that the Shaman got her own spell list? My reasoning is, if the class was to be allowed to choose spells from other lists, then spells from many of the Player Companions, Campaign Setting books, etc, would all be fair game. With the Shaman having a custom spell list, we won't be able to pick interesting spells from those books unless the developers specifically included them in the list. I'm sure in future books, spells will have things like "Shaman 3" right next to the Cleric and Witch in the spell description, but it severely limits the CURRENT spells that can be used, that's all.

Overall, though, I'm excited to see the Shaman in the final book!

It also really limits 3rd party usage as well. Deep Magic is going to need an update, at the very least.

Actually, even though it's a different "Shaman", I was just gonna let any Shaman players pick from the new spells in Deep Magic the same way I let any other player pick spells from Deep Magic. Carefully. Like. With a lot of consideration. Some of that stuff is strong.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
cartmanbeck wrote:

Am I the only one who is a little sad to hear that the Shaman got her own spell list? My reasoning is, if the class was to be allowed to choose spells from other lists, then spells from many of the Player Companions, Campaign Setting books, etc, would all be fair game. With the Shaman having a custom spell list, we won't be able to pick interesting spells from those books unless the developers specifically included them in the list. I'm sure in future books, spells will have things like "Shaman 3" right next to the Cleric and Witch in the spell description, but it severely limits the CURRENT spells that can be used, that's all.

Overall, though, I'm excited to see the Shaman in the final book!

C'mon Tyler - your very own Saint Base class for Fat Goblin Games has a sidebar/note advising GMs and Players on how to add spells to their list. I think the same applies here.

I know folks want things to be super official, and for PFS I'm sure the team will make an ongoing list of spells available. Maybe you could hit them up and offer to help them with a little blurb…

I'd also imagine some sort of live and updatable PDF document could be in order to list the spells available…

I do agree that, given the breadth of material Paizo has published, it is likely some great spells will be missed...

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
cartmanbeck wrote:

Am I the only one who is a little sad to hear that the Shaman got her own spell list? My reasoning is, if the class was to be allowed to choose spells from other lists, then spells from many of the Player Companions, Campaign Setting books, etc, would all be fair game. With the Shaman having a custom spell list, we won't be able to pick interesting spells from those books unless the developers specifically included them in the list. I'm sure in future books, spells will have things like "Shaman 3" right next to the Cleric and Witch in the spell description, but it severely limits the CURRENT spells that can be used, that's all.

Overall, though, I'm excited to see the Shaman in the final book!

C'mon Tyler - your very own Saint Base class for Fat Goblin Games has a sidebar/note advising GMs and Players on how to add spells to their list. I think the same applies here.

I know folks want things to be super official, and for PFS I'm sure the team will make an ongoing list of spells available. Maybe you could hit them up and offer to help them with a little blurb…

I'd also imagine some sort of live and updatable PDF document could be in order to list the spells available…

I do agree that, given the breadth of material Paizo has published, it is likely some great spells will be missed...

Oh absolutely, I was thinking specifically for PFS here. Home games, of course the GM can adjudicate which spells from other sources are appropriate for this class. :-D

Liberty's Edge

MMCJawa wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

I'm still a little less than thrilled with there being a Class named Shaman since I'd expect many shamans to be Druids, Witches, Adepts, or Oracles and that can get confusing.

Plenty of precedents though...you can be a fighter, barbarian, and rogue, without actually having levels in those specific classes

With the exception of Barbarian and some spellcasters of specific sorts (which works since many spellcasters are already referred to by Class IC), most of the other Class Names (including Fighter and Rogue) are not actually common words to use as descriptions. And the people at Paizo have gone on record as saying that they haven't used certain descriptors for Class names (Priest, specifically) because of exactly the issue I bring up.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Lanitril wrote:
Kvantum wrote:
cartmanbeck wrote:

Am I the only one who is a little sad to hear that the Shaman got her own spell list? My reasoning is, if the class was to be allowed to choose spells from other lists, then spells from many of the Player Companions, Campaign Setting books, etc, would all be fair game. With the Shaman having a custom spell list, we won't be able to pick interesting spells from those books unless the developers specifically included them in the list. I'm sure in future books, spells will have things like "Shaman 3" right next to the Cleric and Witch in the spell description, but it severely limits the CURRENT spells that can be used, that's all.

Overall, though, I'm excited to see the Shaman in the final book!

It also really limits 3rd party usage as well. Deep Magic is going to need an update, at the very least.
Actually, even though it's a different "Shaman", I was just gonna let any Shaman players pick from the new spells in Deep Magic the same way I let any other player pick spells from Deep Magic. Carefully. Like. With a lot of consideration. Some of that stuff is strong.

I was going to say that same thing. Many of the spells in Deep Magic already DO list shaman in their class line, along side sorcerer/wizard, cleric/oracle etc. Even though in the case of Deep Magic, 'shaman' refers to the Shaman class in the New Paths Compendium, nothing says you can't allow ACG shaman players to pick them too!


cartmanbeck wrote:

Am I the only one who is a little sad to hear that the Shaman got her own spell list? My reasoning is, if the class was to be allowed to choose spells from other lists, then spells from many of the Player Companions, Campaign Setting books, etc, would all be fair game. With the Shaman having a custom spell list, we won't be able to pick interesting spells from those books unless the developers specifically included them in the list. I'm sure in future books, spells will have things like "Shaman 3" right next to the Cleric and Witch in the spell description, but it severely limits the CURRENT spells that can be used, that's all.

Overall, though, I'm excited to see the Shaman in the final book!

The spell list issue is something many of us saw earlier with the Bloodrager. First packet had the Bloodrager use the Magus spell list, which gave all players access to spells like Force Hook Charge and the Inner Sea Magic spell Bladed Rush. Great spells for combat and mobility. Second packet came and we had a very limited custom list.

In the past, there's always been issues with designing an introductory spell list for a class. They typically use just spells from the Core Rulebook and whatever book the class is introduced in. To date, only the Oracle has avoided such issues. And that was done by flat out giving them the Cleric spell list with a couple of Oracle only spells in their introductory book. Though the ACG playtest packets did indicate them looking through the Advanced Players Guide, Ultimate Combat, and Ultimate Magic for stuff to work with.

Right now, it remains to be seen just what the Shaman spell list is going to be. I can make an educated guess that we will see spells from Core, APG, UC, UM, and the ACG. There's good odds that other player supplements won't be considered until possibly six months down the road. Which is a shame, since there's bound to be more than a few spells in recent Player's Companion books that would be thematically fitting to the Shaman. I don't know what, but it's probably there.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

Kalvit wrote:
In the past, there's always been issues with designing an introductory spell list for a class. They typically use just spells from the Core Rulebook and whatever book the class is introduced in.

Generally true in the reverse, but not going forward. For example, magus and alchemist have plenty of support in later products.


any guess on what race the Iconic Shaman is going to be, the picture posted by GentleGiant is to blurry for me to tell, but at my best guess I would have to say dwarf

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4

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I don't want to create work for the Design Team, but I have what I think is a cool Blog Post for after the book is released and the previews are over.

A blog article that explains what criteria they would place on a spell to make it a "shaman spell", and so on for other classes that get their own spell lists.

That way, they're not caught up trying to retrofit a lot of older material from other product lines, but they give some advice to GMs who want to make those decisions for themselves. Like what exactly is the difference between most a cleric/druid spell that is good for the shaman versus one that is not appropriate. I often advocate that GMs should be unafraid to make those determinations (and still do), but some guidelines never hurt.

You'd probably have disclaimer it was not valid for PFS (which require uniform rulings), but it would give some pointers for the folks at home.

Just a passing thought.


Jim Groves wrote:

I don't want to create work for the Design Team, but I have what I think is a cool Blog Post for after the book is released and the previews are over.

A blog article that explains what criteria they would place on a spell to make it a "shaman spell", and so on for other classes that get their own spell lists.

That way, they're not caught up trying to retrofit a lot of older material from other product lines, but they give some advice to GMs who want to make those decisions for themselves. Like what exactly is the difference between most a cleric/druid spell that is good for the shaman versus one that is not appropriate. I often advocate that GMs should be unafraid to make those determinations (and still do), but some guidelines never hurt.

You'd probably have disclaimer it was not valid for PFS (which require uniform rulings), but it would give some pointers for the folks at home.

Just a passing thought.

Behind-the-curtains articles are always interesting.


That sounds fine. In home games, I may end up searching through material to find appropriate spells to add to a Shaman list anyway. I'll probably do the same for perhaps the other casters in the ACG, just to see what works best.

I don't mind seeing a later blog post where the devs talk to us about how they build spell lists. Right now I'm going with a generalization that may well be wrong, but I currently don't have any input that changes much of my mind on the subject. I'd be happy to get some clarity on it, and I think that most of us would be too.

Designer

9 people marked this as a favorite.
Jim Groves wrote:

I don't want to create work for the Design Team, but I have what I think is a cool Blog Post for after the book is released and the previews are over.

A blog article that explains what criteria they would place on a spell to make it a "shaman spell", and so on for other classes that get their own spell lists.

That way, they're not caught up trying to retrofit a lot of older material from other product lines, but they give some advice to GMs who want to make those decisions for themselves. Like what exactly is the difference between most a cleric/druid spell that is good for the shaman versus one that is not appropriate. I often advocate that GMs should be unafraid to make those determinations (and still do), but some guidelines never hurt.

You'd probably have disclaimer it was not valid for PFS (which require uniform rulings), but it would give some pointers for the folks at home.

Just a passing thought.

We thought of this, and I think we have something that is potentially even better and possibly applicable for PFS...Wait and find out!


Mark Seifter wrote:
Jim Groves wrote:

I don't want to create work for the Design Team, but I have what I think is a cool Blog Post for after the book is released and the previews are over.

A blog article that explains what criteria they would place on a spell to make it a "shaman spell", and so on for other classes that get their own spell lists.

That way, they're not caught up trying to retrofit a lot of older material from other product lines, but they give some advice to GMs who want to make those decisions for themselves. Like what exactly is the difference between most a cleric/druid spell that is good for the shaman versus one that is not appropriate. I often advocate that GMs should be unafraid to make those determinations (and still do), but some guidelines never hurt.

You'd probably have disclaimer it was not valid for PFS (which require uniform rulings), but it would give some pointers for the folks at home.

Just a passing thought.

We thought of this, and I think we have something that is potentially even better and possibly applicable for PFS...Wait and find out!

oh look, even more hurry up and wait... sometimes i wish Paizo wouldnt adverstise what is about to come out and just let us be amazed at a sudden release of some awesome material. :P

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Jim Groves wrote:

I don't want to create work for the Design Team, but I have what I think is a cool Blog Post for after the book is released and the previews are over.

A blog article that explains what criteria they would place on a spell to make it a "shaman spell", and so on for other classes that get their own spell lists.

That way, they're not caught up trying to retrofit a lot of older material from other product lines, but they give some advice to GMs who want to make those decisions for themselves. Like what exactly is the difference between most a cleric/druid spell that is good for the shaman versus one that is not appropriate. I often advocate that GMs should be unafraid to make those determinations (and still do), but some guidelines never hurt.

You'd probably have disclaimer it was not valid for PFS (which require uniform rulings), but it would give some pointers for the folks at home.

Just a passing thought.

Exactly what we need, Jim. This would answer every issue I have right now.

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