solarius's page

"But Wizards are still better" really doesn't help much when discussing class balance.
For example: If I give a martial class, say fighter a new ability called "super strong". What this ability does is increase damage by 1000 points. Even with this ability fighter is still weaker than wizard, because all he can do is just one hit every monster he encounters, while wizard can SoS/SoD multiple monsters a time and create world,command reality, etc.

So by "But wizards are still better!" giving fighter a passive 1000 point damage boost is perfectly balanced and not op.

I think comparing to a wizard shouldn't be the only thing we consider on this matter.

There are fighter archetypes who keep weapon training: Two-handed fighter (weapon training only with two handed weapons), the Lore Warden (just keeping it), Corsair (with a new weapon group), Aldori Swordlord (starts at level 9) or the dragoon (Spear Training: "must take weapon training" with the spear group). Maybe there are even more.

Currently, I would not allow dueling gloves for fighter archetypes without weapon training, because I see nothing in the rules to support that. All the archetypes that have a variant weapon training ability, but where the describing text still clearly says that it is weapon training, are allowed to use the full benefits of the gloves.

I don't think they are a patch, they remind me of the paladins silver smite bracelet, the ranger spell instant enemy and so forth.

Don't forget: the gloves are not only useful if you have the weapon training ability:

"These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn’t drop held weapons when panicked or stunned."

There are several items at the 15000gp to 16000gp price range that grant the "treat one class feature of a class as if 4 levels higher" effect and some more. Namely Robe of Arcane Heritage for sorcerer, Necklace of Ki Serenity for monk, bracelet of mercy/bracers of merciful knight for paladins and maybe some more. So that’s the market price. On the other hand, weapon training’s effect increases by one every 4 levels, so by granting a plus 2 bonus to weapon training, gloves of dueling is effectively granting a "treat one class feature of a class as if 8 levels higher" effect for the same price as others(if not cheaper. the ones for sorcerer and monk are both 16000gp).

If you can't spell rogue, and you think scouting ahead is a bad move, I don't think you should be talking about rogues, or anyone should listen to what you have to say.

I apologize for my typo on the word “rogue”, because I don’t have English as my first language. On the other hand, “you can’t even spell the word so no one should listen to your opinion” is an argument downright stupid. Counter an argument with something relevant to the topic next time and try not to be so rude.

Back on to the topic on scouting. Scouting with a stealth rogue isn’t a good idea because it’s not reliable, and dangerous.

The unreliable part is because most monsters have good perception and there’s no way you can control your dice so unlucky rolls do appear. Maybe when your level goes higher can auto pass your opposing check, but at that level monsters start to have all kinds of senses and stealth becomes even less useful.

Then the part about dangerous. Scouting ahead means voluntarily separate yourself from the party and when things turn sour your mates aren’t with you. Rogue is weak in combat and doesn’t have many tricks to save his hide other than run. So once get noticed the poor rogue is facing more danger than an invisible fighter, or even invisible wizard.

So my point is the right way to scout is using the invisible spell instead of the skill, bet your life on a roll isn’t wise.