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scigeek wrote:

After reading (skimming is a better word, actually) through Here there be monsters I'm feeling inclined to giving a LOST touch to it. I'll elaborate in the spoiler tag.

** spoiler omitted **

What do you think about that?

I like it, I think adding more horror here is always good, in fact there are some Olangru creepiness threads that just go over the meny horrid things one can inflict on their parties to up the horror factor.

The whispers and the "Others" on the IoD could play well also in the ToD part. It'd creep out the players a lot while doing their job.

After reading (skimming is a better word, actually) through Here there be monsters I'm feeling inclined to giving a LOST touch to it. I'll elaborate in the spoiler tag.

What do you think about that?

There is indeed an outline DMs booklet type of thing, however it basically just a list of each adventure and what the general list of what is going on in it. The reason I'm doing these lists of what encounters appear in each adventure (plus what I feel are relevant skill challenges and quests) is so that I can figure out my encounter stretch. It has been brought up that 300 encounters (of their appropriate level) is level 1-30 in 4e. That doesn't count quest or skill challenges (or you could say 300 level appropriate items if all 3 are equal) which I feel we are going to surpass as written. This is good news in the sense that once it is all laid out I can then feel free to determine where I want to level ups to take plae in a sense, and I can decide where to add or remove encounters. A good example is as has been discussed elsewhere I feel a fight with human Vanthus must be done, but in a way that he escapes. It needs to be either at Parrot island in there is no honor (maybe at Brissa's place and then the two escape while the pcs tangle with thugs so that the whole trapped thing is a pain even more), or around sea wyvern's wake. I think it needs to be there to cement how much the pcs hate him, and also make them familiar. In the same vein I would prefer to cut from the same adventure the monstrous crabs in parrot island because they feel unneeded to me and just a chunk of extra XP. I feel that way about alot of extra monsters and especially lower level traps (like the cr 6 & 10s in an adventure for level 14s). Also in the 4e way of thinking I'd love to remove any traps that are just a trap in a room. But I don't feel this is doable until I have the big picture ready so as to know how much room I need to add or remove to make it work for me. In the end it's all about removing the waste of times and getting to the dynamic arse-whooping good times and an excellent story. Hopefully I'll have serpents of Scuttlecove up soon and maybe even Into the Maw.

Ok, finished reading the first adventure and definately the maps will need to be remade into larger versions. Especially the last one. Most rooms are too small to fit a party of 5 PCs and 5 enemies. They could fit 2 or 3 enemies at most and, even then, all the moving around that is characteristic of 4E would be impossible.

I think the most straightforward solution is just to double every linear measurement, thus making the scale of the map 1 square = 10ft. instead of 5. Some rooms could be left unaltered, though.

I can see the last part be filled with minion goons for a more cinematic feel and it would also be a cool way to introduce all those wacky "hanging on the chandelier" maneuvers the DMG talks about with the page 42 table.

Oh well a few points of note. I HATE the item wishlists, as a Dm I feel they make no sense and hurt the sense of immirsion. I love the question of What kind of magic sword is it??? One of my home ruled things I changed is more often than not I will add some extra gold to cover the basic exchange of magic items (so a level 3 item that no one wants can get traded for one someone does.) in the end yes the vendors get the good side of the deal but at the same time by economy reasoning the pcs got what they wanted. Sure its because I handed them that extra 200gp over their parcel, but in the end it works the same by the numbers. Its just hard to do for a pre written usuable for all adventure is all. Also I have the npcs who do craft and sell magic items haggle all the time and the barter system is alive in my games. As to the idea of giving magic items to badguys, they wouldn't mechanically have it just when they are looted so to speak. "Oh look a magic sword, that's why he hit so hard!"

As a side note I won't lie to you, Skill Challenges have been weak point in rules learning when it comes to 4e, they feel clunky to me and I haven't yet learnt how to handle them smoothly and in a fun way in game. They've been like skill checks with a reward for successes, and punishment for failure. That I liken to my 3.x way of playing though.... I'll get it eventually. :P

Concerning Skill Challenges, you might want to take a look into this series of blog posts: http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/?cat=38

As to the wishlists, I hate them too, but seem like a necessary evil. You could take the wishlists and twist them a little bit, for instance... What I did in Cormyr was lay out treasure that with my players in mind, but respecting the story and the NPCs. I would always think about which character was in need of what and then think if that could be placed somewhere along the line. I also included ritual components as treasure, and this is a nice way to turn treasureless monsters into treasure themselves.

They once killed a monster and I told the wizard that certain parts of the creature were valuable as Arcane components for rituals (I always specify which type of ritual the parts will be good for) and there you go, one parcel dispensed where no treasure was to be found before.

Is there an outline of this AP somewhere? I feel that if I read through the whole thing before I start adapting I'll not be able to start before june or something... Then again, you're already ahead of me in your adaptation, so I guess I could just discuss with you some points of it and give you a hand if you want.

I agree and yet I don't. I can't make up my mind on treasure parcels. I like that there is guaranteed treasure now in a sense. However I wish there was a randomized way to assign said treasure and even pick it. Like a way to randomly determine what the 5th level item is, etc. Best of both worlds in my opinion. That way the party...

From a player perspective (have played more 4E than DMed it)I have to say that the item wishlists are indeed important. Since the magic item economy is completely biased towards vendors, if players get a magic item they won't use, they are simply stuck with a very expensive paperweight they can't sell or turn to pixie dust.

This is less problematic for weapons that have a useful power but are of a type the group won't use, since you could transfer magic from one weapon to the other using a ritual.

As a DM, though, I feel uncomfortable having to compromise story coherence for the sake of players getting what they want all the time. This wasn't a big problem for me in Cormyr, but could become difficult to manage in an AP.

As for enemies using magic items, remember to be extra careful with that, since it'll result in some adjustments to compensate for the extra power. I'm not sure the 4th edition was built with that in mind as a frequent thing as it was on the 3rd edition.

Oh, and I completely agree on the Solo thing. They should be bosses and memorable fights, not Joe the Monster that just happened to live alone on his cave.

Anyhow, I should work on reading the whole AP first, so I can discuss things better with you. Your plan of first making a sketch and structure of encounters is indeed very nice. I'm looking forward to discussing the skill challenges with you as well, since I think they're the hidden gem of this edition, though the mathematics of it seems to be still in a beta stage even for the game designers (the new difficulties table turned out to be too easy).

Some of the are that's true. But ways to shorten combats have been discussed, like when the party has almost all of the baddies dead and the leader type is gone just say they kill it or it surrenders and move on, etc. But on a seperate point I have begun my slow and not-so-fine tuned conversion to 4e for when I do run it later on. On the bright side Manual of the PLanes gave us plenty of the criters we neeed later and from what I hear the Big D is in MM2, so that'll make this easier. Now having said that I post the following encounter/skill challenge/quest list for the entire first chapter and I wanna know what you guys think, whether we can cut some encounters down or what not? Also I cut the fish guys from the guildhall because they annoy me ><

** spoiler omitted **

I liked the way you divided things there. I'm still reading the 1st adventure (slow reader here).

However, encounters with a single monster that is not a solo go down the drain pretty fast now. The monster gets squashed or the group does, if the monster is 4 or 5 levels above the party. In that case they simply can't hit him.

One point I'm interested in discussing is how do dispense the treasure using the new parcel system. Clearly the new D&D economic system has been built around it and using the old treasures would spell doom on the financial aspect of the adventure. I must say I dislike the new economy as a player, as I think it's too simplistic and artificial.

I already adapted "Cormyr: The tearing of the Weave" (or at least part of it, as I transitioned mid-flight) with moredate success. I adapted it as I went along, getting feedback from my players to see what could be done in a better way. Some combats I imagined as hard to them turned out to be easy and combats I expected to be moderately challenging ended up as the hardest. I feel this is closely related to monster roles. Having too many of the same monster, as it is common in old adventures, turns the fight into a bland "tabletop mmo" grindfest.

I did also like the way you incorporated skill challenges. I put them at about the same points you did. I should have a sketch of the first adventure by the end of the week and would be happy to discuss it with you, since I should start DMing it in about a month.

One thing I'd like to know of you is: do you intend the AP to go from 1-20 as originally or 1-30, as it seems to be necessary for the end? If so, how would you lay the character levels along the adventures? That has great influence on how the new encounters will end up being distributed.

Currently I am converting the first adventure to 4th edition. The players just climbed out of the tunnels below Parrot Cove. Which means we have the Guildhall approaching quickly. I would dig hearing about any 4th ed. conversions of the encounters within.

It must be said that I generously swap out encounters with creatures that I do not have stats or miniatures for. For example, the Raghodesa. I changed them to deathjump spiders. The manta-ray creatures that patrol the pools. I've been thinking of changing them to Sahuaghin and using the rules in the DMG to lower them by 1-3 levels. Bullywugs, has anyone attempted to convert them to 4th?

Also, the maps are rough. I'm finding 3.5 edition maps are built for smaller encounters. Gone are the days of the party versus 1 bad guy. That one bad guy must be replaced by, the bad guy, a few minions and supporters. But looking at the rooms in the guild hall there is just no space. So either the maps must be enlarged twice the size to scale (5ft sq = 10ft sq) or the encounters need be approached differently. I'm thinking of having the PCs be attacked from both sides in many of the encounters and keeping the size to set scale (ecspecially since I already printed all the maps out). So when the PCs meet Rowyn and Guttugger (anyone converted him yet by adding rogue levels to the guard drake?), if a fight ensues, rogues will come to her aid from behind the PCs. There is just no room to move around in them old maps.

I'm about to start converting the AP, so I'll let you guys know how it turns out as I move along. I must say I have a tendency to reskin monsters rather than making new ones, since I'm not that confident in my design choices.... And wow... I didn't notice there weren't any bullywugs in the 4E MM. Such an iconic monster (at least for me, since I grew up watching the cartoon).

I remember reading something on the lines of old edition maps needing to be rescaled in an article on Dungeon Mag, by James Wyatt. One of his early columns about the Greenbrier campaign he's brewing as an example. He was talking about a map from a 2nd ed D&D adventure whose name I can't recall right now.

This makes me ask you about the length of combats in the 4E. As a player, I noted that most combats last about an hour or so, making a 4 hour session hold at most 3 combats and a bit of roleplay. Is it just me or are the combats lasting way longer than before?