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"An initiative check is a Dexterity check."

Please, stick to the subject of the thread.

Hello all again, sorry for the delay. Life has a way of getting in the way^^

First, once again, thank you for taking the time to help me on this!

Now to further the discussion,

This is only tangentially related to the point but as it is easily cleared, I thought I'd address it,

wearing armor your not proficient in doesn't effect initiative just attack and str and dex based skills initiative isn't a skill

Nonproficient with Armor Worn: A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he is not proficient takes the armor’s (and/or shield’s) armor check penalty on attack rolls as well as on all Dex– and Str-based ability and skill checks. The penalty for non-proficiency with armor stacks with the penalty for shields.

Initiative is a Dex-based ability check, hence is affected by non-proficiency.

In a more related fashion,

*I* didn't say that 3/4 BAB wasn't valuable to you, *you* said that 3/4 BAB wasn't valuable to you.

This is still not a reason to exchange it for almost nothing. I might have a Rolls-Royce of which I have no use for I get car-sick, it is true that I would trade/sell it for a bit less than its market value but not almost give it away. Not useful doesn't mean without value. If whether I use it or not affects your estimation of value, then how about something less powerful than 3/4 B.A.B. to a martial but more frequently used? Would it be fair?

What if I came to you while I had dumped Charisma and had a high Dexterity instead, hence being a good striker? Would you value my 3/4 B.A.B. the same?

You've identified a character resource that you have that you aren't using, and you're looking to trade it away for a useful, scaling, thematic bonus related to your character being a Cleric.

I think we have a misunderstanding here and I believe I didn't express myself correctly. What I meant by useful is actually "more interesting to play". I was envisioning something small, that fits the roleplay more than anything else. I like your idea of Deific Obedience. However, how would you implement it given that it normally doesn't do much before level 12?

- I was actually planning on taking Deific Obedience if we ever reached level 12 as I find it a nice roleplay feat -

I think you should be giggling hysterically at all that you got, and not trying for more.

I do not want "more", I am asking for suggestions for "other". As I've said, if I am stuck with it, I'll end up making use of the 3/4 B.A.B. I simply hope to find something more interesting, more fun to me as a player, as I'd like to do something else than striking foes this time, I do not even debuff that often.

If you want to trade the 3/4 BAB to 1/2 and the d8 to d6, then I could see some additional options.

I wasn't planning on lowering HD but I am open to discussion. What would you see as a fair trade then?

- @bitter lily, of course I'd be re-rolling H.P. then -

you know what playstyle you're going to be using, and trading options intended for versatility out for the one playstyle you're using.

Some examples:
- Clerics are a mixture of divine spells, healing (channeling and spontaneous conversion), martial (proficiencies and medium BAB progression), and sprinkled with domains on top. There's one archetype that trades out BAB, effectively getting rid of the martial category. It doesn't boost an existing category- making that category too strong- but instead gives the new category of skill monkey.

(...)

That's what you're asking for, trading one unused category of versatility to strengthen the one you are using. Good design would say either you get part of a new category (since you only have part of the category to trade), or you only get a minor bonus to the existing category, equivalent to how much you actually value what you're trading.

Edit: Wait, Herald Caller already gets bonus skill points? Wow, that's good. Unless other players are getting custom modifications to trade out things they don't like, don't be greedy.

But this is what I am saying, I do not want to replace B.A.B. for an increase in something I already do/have but by something else, to add another kind of versatility and it is for idea in what this versatility could be that I turn to you. I am not being greedy, I am not trying to get more of the same, more power, I am asking for something that isn't powerful, that fits the theme but that isn't entirely a gimmick.

Same note as earlier on the value of what I am trading, what if I had high Dex instead of high Cha, making me an efficient martial, would you be open to trade for more?

Please keep throwing suggestions, even if only small if you think 3/4 B.A.B. is worthless, I like what you have given me so far and I look forward to further discussion!
- as long as you are trying to help, I am looking at you Coquelicot Dragon^^ -

Thank you for the answers!

Please keep them coming!

@LuniasM, I like your idea! I find it balanced, given how important B.A.B is mechanically. The only drawback is that it adds more of the same, making the character more powerful but not adding new things. I seek to replace B.A.B because it is costly in the class construction but I make little use of it. However, I do not seek to increase the over-all power of my character significantly which adding spell slots would do. As PossibleCabbage puts it, it would be the bad kind of min-maxing, making my specialty even stronger.
I like the versatility of spontaneous spellcasting though! - it is one of the reasons that drew me to Herald Caller - I will explore this avenue. QuiEst had also mentioned this, thank you to her/him as well!

About wearing heavy armour without proficiency, I wouldn't do it for three reasons, it does have a mechanical impact even when not striking, on initiative, which is of consequence, the setting of the campaign is desertic, adding further penalties to heavy armour and, mainly, it isn't role-play, it isn't in the spirit of my character to do this, to do what works best rather than what is the right thing, it would be a case of mechanics trumping role-play - the same goes for medium armours or shields even though they aren't affected by the desertic setting. I would consider it a betrayal of the G.M by me to do this if he'd allow me to re-allocate B.A.B resources to something else.

@Zelgadas Greyward, the idea of an Eidolon at -3 character level is fun! It is a fair trade and fits the bill of growing with the character. It just doesn't work for unrelated reasons, there can be many players at the table so adding yet another actor isn't necessarily wise and the bestial monster I imagine an eidolon as doesn't quite fit the kind priestess of redemption my character is. If I manage to reskin it as an angelic being, it could be something though. I'll look further into it.

To those who are saying that B.A.B isn't worth much to me so they wouldn't give me much, would you give me full B.A.B against not much since it still isn't worth much to me?
It isn't a matter of how much B.A.B is worth to me, it is a matter of how much it costs in the budget of building a class and freeing those resources to allow for something more interesting to play.
I could retrain a feat or two, get a belt of Dex, grab a ranged weapon and let fly starting the second round of each battle, it would be nasty powerful. This isn't what I am looking for for now. If it turns out B.A.B can't be traded, maybe I'll do it then so as not to let it go to waste.

- This reminds me of a Shadowrun character I had, it was an Adept, a magical monk. I had taken Sensitive System as a Disadvantage, which penalises getting implants but I wasn't planning on getting implants because of Sensitive System. Normally, implants impact negatively one's Magic, with Sensitive System, even more so. The G.M. didn't accept. So I ended up not getting Sensitive System and getting implants, just enough and the character turned out much more powerful than it would have been otherwise, having both chrome and magic -

@StephJZ, it isn't a matter of best build, the best build is one one enjoys playing - as long as the other players aren't annoyed by it -, not necessarily the most effective. I do not intend to strike but if left with the B.A.B, I could very well decide to, it will be effective, I just would enjoy it less but the monsters would go down faster.

Also, it is a matter of fairness. It isn't about squeezing things out of the G.M. and I do not believe the G.M. is here to swindle me, just like it isn't fair to build a monstruously powerful character even though it is possible to do it completely legally.

@Gulthor and @Zhayne, would you accept that I trade a feat for full B.A.B? If not, then your trade isn't fair.

Let's ask the question this way, how much would a character, not necessarily mine, have to trade away to increase B.A.B from 3/4 to full?

It is a campaign I've joined just as they got to level 5 and we are now level 8, so I do have spell slots. My roles in the party are - when I am not summoning - buffing and removing debuffs, as well as healer and undead killer. The party is mainly composed of strikers, spell-less paladin, shapeshifting druid, barbarian, 2H inquisitor, magus, monk, rogue. I am a team player and I wouldn't be leaving an empty spot here.
- Not everybody plays all the time, we are grown ups with lives taking precedence, for those who would worry about too many players around the table -
Outside of combat, I fulfill roles usual for a cleric, I can be a face, I know a thing or two about undead and divinity, I am not easily fooled or surprised but there are also things that are there just because they fit the character, like being a good dancer or being an efficient administrator.

@PossibleCabbage, it is exactly that, to have something semi-productive to do when I do not cast that I wish to trade B.A.B away. I do not wish to trade for more specialisation but for something else for which I am asking for suggestions.
- I've been in an erratic magic field, making spellcasting hazardous, it was fun, I still didn't reach for my crossbow. As said earlier, I also ended up stripped of divine power and had to rely on skill and physical competence, it doesn't change the fact that I think B.A.B doesn't belong with this character and could be done away with for something more interesting -

Maybe I should have started my first post by a disclaimer stating that I am not trying to abuse the system, that I know how to abuse the system had I wanted to do so.

I turn to you all for creativity, you have begun to help me, please continue so!

This discussion reminds of Star Trek and the Klingons. When they would speak English, some words would remain in Klingon language though there would be perfectly acceptable one-word translations available in English.

More to the topic, it is the word Eidolon that irks me as the creature in the game has only little to do with any of the various meanings of the word.
Ah, and glaive, this word means gladius to me.

I would ask that you please refrain from a one-line reply that doesn't address the topic.

What is the reason you believe B.A.B isn't usually traded?

I am willing to discuss, I am not trying to power game, I am recognising how class construction resources are given value and in the spirit of making the class I play something more interesting, to trade, as archetypes do, something in the regular class that I don't feel like playing with for something else.

It is possible the conclusion of this discussion will be that such a trade can't happen but it doesn't mean the discussion to reach there shouldn't.

Well, yes and no, I have been in situations where I have been captured, my holy symbol taken, finding makeshift armour and weapon, physically fighting my way out, not able to cast spells or channel.

What I mean is that it is true that under optimal conditions, I won't strike at enemies myself. However, these conditions when I can deploy all the arsenal are rare, just as the other side of the spectrum, me not being to deploy anything of it, exist but are also rare.

Which is why I seek to exchange the B.A.B for something moderately useful but not character defining yet if possible thematically fitting.

Are there a set of angelic powers that grow with the character somewhere in the game for example?
I am not looking for something powerful, just something that wouldn't make me feel this sizeable chunk of class construction resources is completely wasted here.

I oppose the view of looking at the utility of something for a given character to define its value. The value is intrinsic to what is considered. From there, it is because B.A.B is valuable that I seek to trade it, it lies at the core of class construction.
You say it is worth "doodly-fudge", then if you were my G.M., would you give me full B.A.B if I asked for it, in exchange for doodly-fudge? It is the same difference between low and medium progressions as it is between medium and full ones. After all, low, medium or full, it is still useless to me as I don't have the STR and A.C or DEX values to make use of it.

Isn't it only fair that what I would have to give up to get full B.A.B, I could obtain when dropping to 1/2?

Edit: spelling mistakes due to phone auto-correction.

Hi all.

I've recently joined a table where I play a Cleric with the Herald Caller archetype. It loses medium armour and shield proficiencies to gain summoning abilities.

I can envision how retaining 3/4 B.A.B progression can be useful, for an archer character for example. However, this isn't my case, Charisma is my second-higher ability, not Dexterity, as I decided I'd channel rather often.
Hence, I would like suggestions to give my G.M of what I could trade 3/4 B.A.B for, setting it to 1/2, given that B.A.B is a powerful element, not simply a not often used class ability.

I had initially thought +2 skill points/level and another domain, or feats like the wizard but come to think of it, I would prefer something more thematically fitting, either with the Cleric aspect or with the summoning aspect of my character.
I'd also prefer something that has level progression.

What sayeth thou?