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DM Beckett wrote:
I apologize. I wasn't meaning it to sound as mean as it kind of came off. I was trying to say that by focusing on just a few spells, it's kind of defeating the purpose of playing a Cleric (vs an Oracle or a normal Fighter). I should have instead I would avoid focusing on just one spell per spell level.

No problem man, thanks!

I totally agree and I wouldn't seriously suggest a level 1 cleric fill their spell list with Bless.

Divine Favor is an awesome spell since Luck bonuses are hard to come by and stack with everything. But it is balanced by a duration that does not scale, meaning you will always have to use a std action every fight to get it up and running. And further balanced by being self-only. At low levels, most enemies die in two hits, and I have found it is often not worth spending resources to fully buff rather than roll an attack and have a chance of killing the enemy outright. At higher levels, when enemies get a bit crazier and Divine Favor begins to scale, I value the spell more highly. Of course, it is all context and campaign dependent.

Like you say, Clerics are extremely versatile and can do many different things. Maybe the OP can help us help him and chime in and give us a sense of what he wants his Cleric to be able to do really well. What things he doesn't care about (i.e. Channel Energy?), etc.

Getting back on track....

The best single target buff for a reach cleric is a spell that hasn't been mentioned yet....
Enlarge Person!

The Growth subdomain is one way to gain the ability to Enlarge yourself. Otherwise you need to work with your party's arcane caster or do some Half-elf alternative racial trait shenanigans to be able to cast it yourself. There are probably other ways I'm not thinking of to get it on your spell list.


In my defense, my post was somewhat tongue in cheek, maybe that wasn't very obvious. I like how DM Beckett could have easily given his own advice without taking pokes at people, but why do that? This is the internet after all.

In any case, the other suggestions surely do point out some decent spells, nearly all of which are better as scrolls or wands than hard cast from a melee Cleric who probably isn't sporting a completely maxed Wisdom.

He likely does not have many bonus spells and his attack spells likely have poor save DCs. Therefore, he should focus on buff and enabling spells with long durations whose effects and/or duration scale with caster level. Any useful spells that do not scale with caster level should be on a wand or scroll to save slots.

Many of my suggestions assume that for the majority of fights you do not have endless standard actions to use before every battle. If your GM or campaign features many fights where you have tons of time to cast buff spells, then some self-buffs become better as hard cast spells and things shift a bit in my analysis.

Divine Favor = wand. No reason to hard cast this spell. Avoid this spell at level 1 when you can cast Bless that does the same thing but for the entire party. Even once the spell scales at higher caster levels, there are often better more versatile buffs to cast. If you find you have tons of standard actions to prep before a battle, this spell can be really good (luck bonus is nice). However it is only worth it as a hard cast spell if you are high enough caster level for the spell to scale. Before that, its always a wand.

Bull's Strength = most of the time this is a really bad buff. Bless is patently better for a similar effect that is much more versatile and benefits the entire party. If you have time to cast Bless AND a bunch of single target buffs it is a decent one at low level. However, its value decreases with level and gear acquisition. I always keep this spell available, but I use it as a potion since there is almost no benefit to hard casting it and there are many much more powerful 2nd level spells competing for limited slots.

Command, Murderous Command, Hold Person, Compassionate Ally, Forbid Action or any other save-based attack spell = best for WIS focused builds which most reach builds are not. That being said, the best of these spells (Command, Forbid Action and Compassionate Ally) are very powerful so they are still 'ok' save or lose spells, even if they don't stick very often. See summon monster for a better alternative to a save-based attack spell 9 times out of 10.

Summon Monster = I think if you want to cast offensive spells, reach builds are almost always better off casting summon monster spells and using Combat Reflexes feat to offset the full round casting time and the loss of melee attacks. Summon Monster spells have no save, always work, and break action economy for any character. They are often the best spell to cast in any given situation for any casting character - yes they are that good.

They are offense, defense, no-save, battlefield control and CC all in one, and that's just with a badger or two, let alone some of the cool SLA available at higher levels. Anytime, a summon monster lends a bonus to an ally, soaks an attack, forces or prevents enemy movement - you win. However the effectiveness of any summon monster spell is limited by the tactical skills and creativity of the player, so YMMV.

You do not need a way of reducing casting time for summon monster to be amazing. Reducing the casting time to a standard action is amazingly powerful, and from a power-gaming perspective should be pursued for any caster who uses summon spells. SM spells are so powerful in their own right that they are still superior casting choices despite the casting time. SM spells are so powerful in their own right, that if/when you are able to buff the spell and lower its casting time down to an std action, it borders on retarded to not cast SM every single round.

Truestrike = awesome spell. Way better than spending 10 rounds self-buffing for a similar effect. However it is never worth hard casting. Always cast from a wand.

Shield of Faith / Entropic Shield and other single target defensive buff spells = First off, in Pathfinder Offense is better than Defense, nearly always. So in general if you want to cast a buff and you need to pick one, you should look at offensive buffs first. Secondly if you want to cast a defensive buff, you should look at Protection and Circle spells first, then consider these spells only if the Protection spells won't work or they are already cast. Even Obscuring Mist often makes a much better defensive spell than these single target spells. OM gives much better defense statistically, works against all attacks even touch, can effect the entire party and has far more uses than defense.

Resist Energy > Protection from Energy = Energy protection is always situational dependent upon the enemies you face. If you think you might need energy protection, resist energy is almost always the superior choice.

Liberating Command = awesome amazing spell. I would highly recommend memorizing this spell. No target restrictions, immediate action cast. Way better than many defensive buffs.

Protection from Evil = If you need to cast a defensive buff, Protection is almost always the best defensive buff you can cast. Makes other single target defensive buff spells like shield of faith, entropic shield, etc. look stupid. However, this spell is almost never worth hard casting. Keep a wand of Protection from Evil (usually the most useful one, campaign dependent) and a scroll or two of Protection from everything else.

Dispel Magic = nice spell in Pathfinder. I like to have at one ready to be hard cast from the party, so it might be very valuable. I would argue that the primary caster pick it up since a Reach Cleric will have limited spell slots/day

Spiritual Weapon = cool spell, better for WIS based builds. Amazing en masse versus casters. This spell goes way up in value if you have allies who can cast it as well. Stacking this spell on a single enemy can effectively tank many characters. For a reach cleric there are usually better spells to cast, like summon monster, but it can be a really cool spell in certain situations. Its bigger cousin, Spiritual Ally, is an amazing spell, really good for reach clerics.

Bless / Prayer / Blessing of Fervor = if you find you have limited standard actions to prep for battles, multi-target spells are always better than single target spells. These are the best buff spells in the game for their spell level. They are multi-target, good duration, flexible, and benefit the most character types and builds compared to other buff spells. Basically if you want to cast a buff and can only cast one or two, these spells are THE spells to cast 9 times out of 10.

Prayer is even better, a multi-target buff and no-save debuff. It's the best buff spell in the game until Blessing of Fervor. It outclasses a 6th level party buff spell (Mass Bull's Strength) which yields a similar net benefit but to a much more restricted range of characters for a 6th level spell slot!

Finally, Blessing of Fervor is the best buff in the game for a long time - better than Haste, same duration but more flexibility.

There are other sub-par spells on the above lists but they suffer from the same problems as one or more of the spells I listed above, and so there isn't really any reason to repeat them.

Looking at the other two lists, Magda has a much more effective spell list for a reach cleric than DM Beckett, assuming your reach cleric's WIS isn't maxed. If you have a high WIS, DM Beckett's list is decent. The attack spells he chose aren't the best for the given level, but they are still effective and fun.

The point of my previous post was that Bless, Summon Monster and Prayer are so good for the first few spell levels compared to other Divine Spells, they become easy choices for your reach cleric's limited spell slots. Sure they may not be the most exciting spells, but they will handle 90% of the situations you and your party will want you to cast a spell, and if they don't, take 15 minutes and fill an open slot to get the spell you need.

There is my less tongue in cheek answer.

-Pedro


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Remy Balster wrote:

That is eactly the problem. The GM shouldn't be imposing these penalties. The player should be playing these penalties!!!

if you have a 7 in a stat, you should be distinctly incapable in all things that stat, it would be just as central to who and what you are as your greatest strengths.

But when a player wants to pick a 7 in a stat that they then try to pretend doesn't exist... that is just a min/maxer. They have no interest in making an interesting character; they just wanted to do 1 more point of damage.

That is lame.

You are essentially forcing your own vision of what stat <10 means onto your players with little to no mechanical support for your decision. That is fine. It's called a house rule and you surely can add any house rule to your game you wish, regardless of how nonsensical it may be. However, you should realize that you are house ruling things, and that your position is not supported by the rules. Namely, a simple -2 penalty from a 7 stat does not come anywhere close to the mechanical equivalent of 'distinctly incapable'.

I suggest you do one of two things to avoid needlessly punishing your players and pissing them off:

Create a house rule that modeling your vision of low ability scores and give mechanical support to your arbitrary limitation. Double the penalties. Increase the time it takes for skill checks on that stat. I'm sure you have some ideas to rationalize your arbitrary limitation. Pull from those. However, run your arbitrary house rule by your players first and let them chime in whether or not they want to play with the additional rules. (Personally, I find any rule that limit the player's creativity with their own character is a really good way to have your players lose interest, but YMMV).

Or, let go of such arbitrary limitations and allow yourself the flexibility to acknowledge that there is a wide range of human intelligence, common sense and ability that cannot be exactly simulated with discreet stat scores. People with low stat scores can mechanically achieve easy DC skill checks in skills dependent on the dumped score. For instance, people with low intelligence are able to type and write complete sentences all the time (DC 5), rarely resulting in a complete fail despite their low Intelligence. You needn't look much farther than this thread to find copious evidence.


There are so few decent divine spells this is easy.

Level 1
Bless
Bless
Bless
(don't forget Bless)
SM1
leave open slots and spend 15 minutes to fill them on the fly as needed.

Mid-Level
SM3
SM3
SM3
(don't forget summon monster 3)
Prayer
leave open slots and spend 15 minutes to fill them on the fly as needed.

If you're the kind of bleeding heart cleric that likes to put smiles on the faces of your allies then bring along
Magic Vestment (pearl o power)
GMW (pearl o power)
Blessing of Fervor