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Great! We're in complete agreement! This thread can end on an up note :DThere is nothing new or interesting to post on this subject. No again you just fall into the category of 'if this was all you had to contibute why bother', just go away. But with your screen name I can see that, thats probably not going to happen.
Conan was alright. Scorpion King level of quality, better effects. Jason Momoa was a better Conan than Arnie, scarred (like he should be) and brooding. Awseome Hyborian vistas. But I just don't get why Hollywood thinks that Joe Schmoe the writer can write better Conan than REH. In the end just not enuff balls as REH Conan. The Phoenix on the Sword, The Tower of the Elephant, Jewels of Gwahlur, Beyond the Black River, Red Nails, The Forst Giants Daughter, The God in the Bowl. All better stories than the Mask of Acheron. Dark Horse figured it out. Too bad Hollywood hasn't. Sadly this is probably the final nail in Conans coffin.
Since NPCs are clearly out to abuse the system, why don't they optimize and take a level of aristocrat for the money and social class and then go expert for the skill points? Really, it's the commoners own fault for not bothering to bend the rules in their favour. Yeah because having a level of aristocrat guarantees those things. Right. But you obviously have a better handle on the rules than me. Whatever.
When did I say the gunsmith was a player. And your math is wrong. Sale of 10,500 gp armor. Cost of materials (10,500/3 = 3,500) So 10,500 - 3,500 = 7,000 gp profit. Sale of 1,106,000 woth of guns. Cost of materials (1,106,000/2 = 553,000) 1,106,000 - 553,000 = 553,000 profit. (Sounds like a good living to me.) Also if you don't know the difference between treasure and crafted items than I don't know what to say to you.
I don't remember who mentioned the Rival Guide NPC or for what reason.
Spoiler:
I hope it wasn't because they thought that these characters would prove that NPCs had high touch AC. Argentine Blades CR 13 [Average AC 20, T 13]
Children of Steel CR 23 [Average AC 27, T 17]
Dust Coven CR 19 [Average AC 27, T 15]
Hands of Slaughter CR 11 [Average AC 17, T 11]
Hellblood Corsairs CR 21 [Average AC 26, T 17]
Kodar Kneecappers CR 7 [Average AC 15, T 11]
Marrow Reavers CR 12 [Average AC 20, T 13]
Night Harrows CR 17 [Average AC 24, T 15]
Poisoned Lodge CR 9 [Average AC 16, T 12]
Queen's Hands CR 15 [Average AC 21, T 12]
So yeah thats an impressive roster of suck touch AC. Next.
REVISED
Craft (armor) +30 (20 ranks + 5 Int + 3 class skill + 2 masterwork tools + 6 skill focus) Mithril Full Plate 10500 gp. DC 19 (well 29 really) So taking 10 gets him a 46 check so thats 1,334 sp per week so that comes out to 78.71 (79) weeks. Number of pistols crafted by 1st level gunsmith with no skill ranks and non-masterwork gunsmithing kit during the same time period, 553. Your right thats fair. I don't know what I was thinking. Value of armor at end of crafting. 10,500 gp. Value of guns at end of crafting. 1,106,000 gp. What other crafter gets to make 1,000 gp/day with no checks [auto checks ARE different because they are only automatic IF you have skills and/or feats]. Also you can't take 10 when crafting magic items.
I cleaned up some posts. Is it that hard to be nice to one another? I'm not the one that started with the name calling. Calling someone a troll is still insulting, just because it may be accepted by a majority of people on this forum doesn't make it less isnulting. If thats all you can contribute, just go away.
Making a product page for this and getting it up as a publicly purchasable special is on the agenda for shortly after GenCon. Look for it by the end of August. Where would this product be? So that when it does come out I can look in the proper section for it. I would assume it would appear under the Pathfinder Society Scenarios, but you know what they say about assumptions.
Gunsmithing works exactly like magic item crafting, because the Craft skill rules are nonfunctional for what gunslingers need to be able to do. If Gunsmithing's crafting is broken, then magic item creation feats are broken exactly the same way. Still broken, because guns require no checks, and are made faster than comparably priced items.
1st level wizards cant make anything better than low-level wand, scrolls and potions. With checks.The DC on those checks is DC 6. You can take 10 on crafting. They can't possibly fail. I didn't say they could. Just that 1st level gunsmiths can make ALL firearms not just low level items. 1st level wizards can't even make +1 weapons. Except without raising the DC becuase they don't meet all the prerequistes.
Where would that 1st level gunslinger get the money to craft stuff? You know treasure in D&D and Pathfinder is scaled right? How about a gunsmith in the employ of Absalom, they've got plenty of money. 1st level gunsmiths can turn out a pistol per day. No checks. 1st level wizards cant make anything better than low-level wand, scrolls and potions. With checks.
Except crafting magic items requires checks.Checks that automatically succeed if you're trained in Spellcraft, not exceeding your own caster level, and not attempting to otherwise bypass the prerequisites for making an item. Whatever man, your right I guess it's all fair. Your right 1st level gunsmiths should be able to make guns with no checks. While magic item crafters are still required to make checks, regardless of their rate of success, they still have to make checks. If, and, but, yeah thats a compelling argument. Your right. Thats why you only made the top 32.
@John Kretzer - Bestairy 1 monsters with touch AC within 2 points of (or equal to) normal AC... Swarms (all), black pudding, cockatrice, dark creeper, darkmantle, shadow demon, imp, dog (both), dolphin, eagle, electric eel, ettercap, familiars (all), frog (both), gelatinous cube, ghost, ghoul, goblin, goblin dog, gray ooze, homunculus, horse (both), hyena, giant leech, merfolk, mite, morlock, nymph, ochre jelly, octopous, pixie, psuedodragon, dire rat, shadow (both), skum, constrictor snake, spectre, giant spider, squid, stirge, svifneblin, tengu, will-o-wisp, wolf, wolverine, worg, wraith, yellow musk creeper, zombie Yeah that list is awesome. No giants. No dragons. Most demons and devils are right out too. Highest CR on that list 8 (greater shadow). So you have fun with that game.
I'm not the one who derailed this thread by bringing up again. This was started to discuss the Gunsmithing feat. Just willing to argue. And if some of you can't get past an ironic thread title, then please go away. It was to get attention, get over it.
Why does mithral full plate take weeks upon weeks longer to make then regular full plate? Hell mithril is supposed to be lighter and easier to work with, yet it takes forever longer to craft then a steel set of full plate. How does that make any sense?I'm not aware of any source that says that mithral is easier to work with than steel. It's not he just made that up.
Right when you compare apples to oranges. Which I was fine with but really you should compare two fighters, or two gunslingers. But whatever, I'm done trying to convince you people. Yer fine with the touch attack mechanic as a feature of firearms, I get it. That doesn't mean your right though. It would be better as a Gunslinger class feature.
I read some of this thread....but would like to add something about firearms touch attacks. You know how about instead of using big creatures with low touch ACs GMs actualy got a little creative and adapt the adventures to their players and use creatures with high touch ACs. So now yer gonna insult my creativity? Why should I alter a printed adventure? Just because Paizo can't build gun rules that follow basic game balance issues? If I wanted to do that I would just write my own adventures. BTW, what are those high touch AC monsters that I should be using? Quicklings, air elementals, and ghosts. Yay what a roster. Also I saw a couple of posts by the OP complaining about hve to altering the rules for a $40 book....I see adding a sentence( to add crafts checks for making firearms and bullets) and removing the section on touch attack. That really is not that big of a thing to complain about. I don't have to change anything really from the Core Book, APG, GMG, UM, and other than a few poorly designed encounters from a couple of AP haven't had to change much from those.
The main issue with crafting is the time limit both on making and how much can be made even if i beat the DC by 100 i can still only make one check a day so i can only make one of what ever i am making a day wether its one sword one spoon or 20 arrows. Except Gunsmithing lets you make 1,000 gold worth of ammo per day. Boy I wish people would read stuff first.
You can easily make a keg of powder per day.
The point is items are valued at a certain level not only because of the complexity but also their rarity and the material that goes into them. The crafting rules simply assumes that the GP value of an item is based on it's complexity and thus more expensive items take longer to craft. So gold coins aren't any more difficult to craft than copper coins and take the same ammount of time to craft, the resultant gold piece is just more valuable than a copper piece it doesn't necessarily have 1 gold worth of gold in it.
lets say you wanted to make a pet rock (by gluing on googly eyes onto it), the DC would be non existent and it would take you no time at all, but if you wanted to make a pet rock out of the hope diamond it would take weeks and weeks to complete the crafting. One assumes that it's very slow drying glue. ;) Yeah cause thats the logical assumption.
Structures and vehicles along with certain alchemical items (like high-end poisons).What has a high price tag? Besides guns.How exactly are craft skills nonfunctional. You make a check multiply your check by the target DC, compare that to the price of the item in SP and if that isn't equal to the price then you move on to the next week and make another check.Because anything with a high price takes ages, but you can make infinite clubs in a day. The rules don't make any sense any which way. So it takes a long time to build a house, yeah yer right that rule is totally nonfunctional.
How exactly are craft skills nonfunctional. You make a check multiply your check by the target DC, compare that to the price of the item in SP and if that isn't equal to the price then you move on to the next week and make another check.Because anything with a high price takes ages, but you can make infinite clubs in a day. The rules don't make any sense any which way. What has a high price tag? Besides guns.
I do feel that the Gunsmithing feat as it is written is a poor addition to the game. I feel that all of the tasks it involves can and should be covered with Craft (alchemy) and Craft (weapons).And those skills would cover them, I imagine, if the craft skills weren't so badly designed as to be completely nonfunctional. How exactly are craft skills nonfunctional. You make a check multiply your check by the target DC, compare that to the price of the item in SP and if that isn't equal to the price then you move on to the next week and make another check. They're pretty straightforward and totally functional. They do cover firearms (as someone pointed out earlier, see page 101 in UC), just not if you take Gunsmithing to bypass all those checks.
Nice to deal with someone who feel like talking about things instead of blowing up about stuff... 1) If you say so, I'm kinda sick of arguing about this. 2) Why should I? It was all about DPR, DPR, DPR. The DPR calculator doesn't address this, the archer could have someone cast warp wood on his bow in the first round so then what doesn he do? IF,IF,IF. You (not you specifically) were claiming that the archer just flat out owns the gunslinger on DPR and that blanket statement isn't true. 3) Sure you may START at more than 20', and have to close the gap like a melee character, so your first round won't be a full attack but that doesn't automatically gaurantee the archers first round will be a full attck tound either. 4)Im not 100% against the touch attack mechanic, I just think there are better ways to implement it. Not as a feature of the guns but as a class feature of the Gunslinger. This would keep guns out of the hands of most people since they are expensive, they do misfire, and they are an exotic weapon. The way they are now, chumps can shoot targets they should have no chance of affecting, even with a -4 penalty for being non-proficient.
Wow, touch a nerve did I? Seems like someone has some bile to spew. The CR 15 was just an example, all 10th level characters should be sucking in that encounter except the gunslinger doesn't thanks to his awesome weapon. But instead of pointing out what kind of mistakes I might have been making with my terrible archer in calulating his DPR you intead want to talk to me (complete with poor grammar) like you own this place, if you don't have something useful to post please just go away (seems like I said this once to you already).
Not sure how you're getting this because my archer is getting 44.25 against AC 28. Heres what Im doing in the DPR calculator.target ac: 28, base attack 10, STR mod 4, DEX mod 5, power attack, PBS, rapidshot, manyshot, dice average 5, enhancement 2, threat 19, crit 3, ranged STR cap -1, focus level 3, weapon training 1 and a misc +damage of 4
Wow, this archer build you just provided to justify it's ridiculously low DPR number totally blew my mind, I now underst... I have no idea what thats supposed to mean but, the archer you built gets into the mid 60s for DPR, so why is mine so terrible? The original point i was making with this whole thing was how the touch attack mechanic is flawed, as the examples show (I was gonna say prove, but nothing proves anything around here). The gunslingers DPR doesn't change, the archers does. End of story.
Gunslinger (No Archetype)
Strength 13 (+1)
Base Attack Bonus +10/+5; Melee Attack Bonus +11/+6; Ranged Attack Bonus +16/+11
Fort +11
Initiative +8
AC 26 (T 19, FF 19)
Gunslinger Abilities
Skills (only those with ranks)
Feats
Weapons
Armor
Magic Items
Uhm so I'm not sure where we're at right now since the build above is pretty close to my build...so here...
DPR: 44.25
And thats after I gave him a Misc. +damage: 4 (because I felt sorry for him) If you change his target AC to 10 his DPR shoots up to 109.25 (but touch AC doesn't affect things I forgot, sorry) The Gunslinger gets DPR: 66.00
So yeah I guess if the low score wins (I bet it doesn't) the the archer is owning the gunslinger. Your right, I dont know what I was thinking. So this thing is pretty easy to use so lets throw up some more numbers, shall we?
Archer DPR: 50.00
CR 13 too tough lets go on down to CR 10
Archer DPR: 73.00
Wow I was gonna post some more Kingmaker encounters but Blood for Blood (the 10th level issue) is just loaded with crap monsters from front to back. 6 CR 6 trolls, wow color me underwhelmed. No wonder we rolled over these encounters, and were about a level behind the curve. So I guess if you fight chump monsters the archer shines, but when you fight tough monsters the gunslinger shines. CR 13 encounters are more what I consider the norm for 10th level characters, not CR 11 encounters made up with 3 CR 7 Boggards and 3 Giant Frogs with 11 CR 2 Boggards, thats a speed bump on the way to a real encounter. Also I think its worth noting that just like the numbers I posted earlier, the Gunslinger remains consistant in the 63-66 range while the archer fluctuates wildly from 44-73, which suggests to me the crucial point that consistancy wins. More hits for less damage equals more damage overall. How about a really tough monster, CR 15 Average AC 31 (T 8) Archer DPR: 26.88
Now thats fair? I just feel sorry for the archer, if it were fair and balanced, the gunslinger should be sucking in this encounter just llike the rest of his party.
Uhm...he's almost exactly the same as the average for all these monsters, so I guess you told me.
Exactly, so again I fail to see the problem. If you don't have the feat then you have to craft them like everything else in the game. There is no feat that lets you magically craft anything else in the game bypassing all checks and the need to be a skilled craftsman. Craft a masterwork bow. Takes skill ranks and checks. No feat to bypass these. And spend 2-3 weeks Craft a masterwork pistol. Take Gunsmithing and spend a day. No skill ranks required no check involved.
Its the same Gunslinger from the Iron Golem encounter. You're gonna have to wait until tomorrow for the full stat block post, I'm outta here for today. But I'll post his whole stat block, but you should be able to get the same results as me with the info above, but if not I'll be back tomorrow.
Are there a lot of other craft skills that require a feat?I don't see what's so upsetting about the lack of craft rules. Uhm...you mean besides magic items. You don't need the feat to make guns, it just makes it totally effortless and something that you dont need skill ranks for.
Gunslinger DPR 69.30 (still more than 66.79) So even using your precious DPR calculator I win. Full Attack: 69.30
Single Attack: 23.10
Whatever the hell all that means. I assume that will mean something to you DPR fanatics. Again I've just started messin with this thing, but it seems fairly straight forward. 1 to turn on feats. Dice average. Enhancement Bonus. Etc, etc.
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