outermind's page

Ok, i did a little digging and I found it...

"An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike. Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons (see Combat). The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls."

So there is a distinction but does that last line factor in? If it is treated as a weapon for effects that that give bonuses and this strike is two-handed would that not grant the higher yield or maybe that line means something different?

Ok, maybe that is where I am getting confused... a Monks unarmed strike is different than a primary natural attack? I figured a Monks fists were his primary natural weapon as what else would be ;) Is there somewhere that spells it out so I can confirm. Thank you for all the responses as well. Trying to clear it up.

How would this translate with Dragon Style if it is your first attack in the round which grants you 1.5 str?

Would you get the 1.5 str bonus on both damage rolls since it is one attack which also triggers the higher yields of Power Attack... 1 for 3?

How would it also factor in with Dragon Ferocity since that feat gives you a +.5 str to all unarmed strikes. Would it trigger the same mechanic as above?

Thanks!

I see your point that lunge only has effect during your turn... thanks for pointing that out. Marid style increases your reach by 5 feet as well so I assume that would combine with lunge or combat patrol giving me an effective 15ft reach. I could then snatch anyone who moves through my threatened area, throw them prone in any space I threaten (between a rogue and I for flanking) with trip and Ki throw and and keep them there with standstill greatly increasing the effectiveness of the rogue using sneak attack.

I like the Sohei, but the mount just doesn't fit with the flavor that I am looking for.

Hi All, I am making a build that relies on reach bonuses such as lunge and combat patrol and wanted to confirm that they both stack with each other for an effective 15+ft reach. I also wanted to throw Marid Style in there with some Ki Throw for a good crowd control option.

Thanks in advance.

As much as it pains me to say... I concede.

Monk: A monk weapon can be used by a monk to perform a flurry of blows

Here they clearly equate "monk weapon" with "weapon with the special monk descriptor". I was misled by their use of 3 different ways of saying the same thing. My apologies and thanks for helping to clarify.

Is it "any weapon a monk is proficient with"?

Bingo! The word monk as used here is not a weapon descriptor, it is stating ownership with the word "his" that precedes it "his monk weapons". If monk was a weapon descriptor in this case, it would have been "special" monk weapons as they have used in other descriptions.

Look how they specifically called out what you cannot use with perfect strike... don't you think they would make the same effort with this ability if they wanted it to be limited to special monk weapons? Were they lazy? Maybe... but by RAW, you can't tell me that "his monk weapons" = "special monk weapons". IF we are going to use the "they are lazy" or "they aren't legal specialists" points then you can refute half the rules in the books so I refuse to accept argument :P

When I first started this thread I really didn't mean to debate these points so much... it has taken on a life of its own. Thank you all for the replies though, even if they didn't agree with mine :)

You can define it as any weapon available to a monk, including unarmed strike as I mentioned in a previous post. I think if the developers wanted "monk weapons" to be synonymous with "weapons with the monk special quality" or "special monk weapons" they wouldn't have used the later two in their descriptions and would have just called them monk weapons. That's not the case though as they are very specific in how they word things.

I gave a perfect example of a quote directly from a developer in a later post supporting that:

If it meant "manufactured weapon," it would say "manufactured weapon" rather than "melee weapon".

Martial Arts Master (Ex)

At 4th level, a martial artist may use his monk level to qualify for feats with a fighter level prerequisite when those feats are applied to unarmed strikes or weapons with the monk special quality.

Another example of the developers being specific in their terminology. Notice how they don't call them "monk weapons" but "weapons with the monk special quality" the same way they call them out in FOB.

QingGong will be included subbing out an ability for Barkskin as that is a sure shot. Other than that, there weren't many others that I was considering... maybe gliding steps or ki leech.

The Dimensional feats are nice but they require a lot of investment and I would have to gut a lot of the synergy I have here to make them shine. I could remove Furry's Fall (adds dex to CMB when tripping) which wouldn't be that great at that level and add the 2nd feat in that chain. Maybe swap out Mobility for Improved Crit as well.

Weapon Adept is an archetype designed to focus on monk weapons, not the unarmed strike.

To complain that you cannot use the abilities of the archetype on something that it is not meant to focus on is a bit silly.

I don't remember seeing anyone complain here, I just asked a simple question and was giving examples of things that supported my view. The flavor of the class is a monk that uses manufactured weapons... but by RAW there is nothing in that ability that limits it to manufactured weapons. You are looking at it from a RAI perspective based on the descriptive text for the class when I asked for a ruling by RAW in my original post.

I was hoping to get some feedback on how optimized these choices were and some suggestions on adjustments if need be. I am still rather green to the PF system. This path focuses on the synergy of Shatter Defenses and Medussa's Wrath and has some other things peppered in there.

Novice Tenzin, Human (Unarmed Fighter 1, Monk 19)
Starting Abilities:
Str: 20 (+5)
Dex: 12 (+1)
Con: 12 (+1)
Int: 10 (0)
Wis: 18 (+4)
Cha: 8 (-1)
Feats:
1st (Unarmed Fighter): Weap Focus (L), Dragon Style (UFB), Dazzling Display (H)
2nd: Improved Grapple (B)
3rd: Intimidating Prowess (L), Combat Reflexes (B)
5th: Dragon Ferocity (L)
7th: Power Attack (L), Improved Trip (B)
9th: Shatter Defenses (L)
11th: Cornugon Smash (L), Medussa’s Wrath (B)
13th: Elemental Fists (L)
15th: Vicous Stomp (L), Ki Throw (B)
17th: Dimensional Agility (L)
19th: Fury’s Fall (L), Mobility (B)

The Shatter defenses feat chain is a large investment... but the potential to trigger Medussa's Wrath on just about every full attack is attractive.

Flurry of Blows: Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon

Notice the terminology difference between FOB and your statement that Monk Weapons means "Special Monk Weapons". Clearly stated as two different things. Special Monk Weapons and Unarmed Strike are all Monk Weapons.

Here is an example coming from a developer being specific on their terminology that supports my case in the above post.

We aren't talking about monk weapon qualities here, we are talking about monk weapons... if the devs wanted to differentiate between monk weapons (any weapon available to a monk) and a manufactured weapon that has the monk special quality, they would have called it out as "special monk weapons" or "manufactured monk weapons". Language that is used throughout the Monk class description.

So what you are saying is that an unarmed strike is not a melee weapon because it is not in the equipment chapter? Considering this system has two types of weapons... melee and ranged, I think it is and is counted as a "monk weapon".

Can I choose unarmed strikes as my focus for weapon focus and specialization as given to me by the class ability "Way of the Weapon Master" even though I can't use unarmed strike with Perfect Strike. I know the flavor of the archetype is supposed to be a monk that focuses on a manufactured weapon, but the way I see it, there is nothing RAW that prohibits what I want to do.