marvin_bishop's page

My gaming group is working on playing through the play test adventures and I have some feedback about the skill and proficiency system. I'm going to attempt to keep this concise and avoid some of the circular discussions I've read on other similar posts.

Background - I'm an experienced gamer on the min/max end of the spectrum with experience in 3.5, pathfinder 1.0, and D&D 5E. I have so far play tested PF 2.0 at levels 1, 4, 5, 7, and 9

Thesis - I don't know how to be good at things in this game. My impression so far is that the underlying math of this system places more variance in uncontrollable factors than in choices the players can make for their characters. This makes it difficult or impossible to make a character that feels like they are good at something.

Math - Dice rolling games are about probability and variance. All checks in PF 2.0 use a d20 which has a flat probability curve and and a variance of about 5. Checks are resolved either against an arbitrary DC set by the DM, author, or developer or against another character's statistics. Since an arbitrary DC can be adjusted at any time, it's more useful to talk about opposed checks.

The numbers feeding into a check include several components, all of which are sources of variance in the result of the check. These are Dice, Level, Proficiency, Stats, Items and Conditions (including buff spells).

explanation of the magnitude of the variance
Dice: about 5, because math
Level: 5 (from -1 for easy encounters to +4 for deadly ones)
Proficiency: 7, skewed a the bottom (from -4 for untrained to +3 for legendary)
Stats: 6 (from -1 for a penalty to +5 for an invested specialist)
Items: about 3 (from 0 for basic to +3 for legendary)
Conditions: about 3 (this one is tricky to count, but in play it seems hard to stack too many conditions at once)

In practice what I have observed is that Dice and Level are the biggest sources of meaningful variance. Generally proficiency, stats, items and conditions only vary by a point or two each since everyone is generally trying to use skills (including attacks and such) that they're good at. Simplified down that leaves us:
Dice: 5
Level: 5
Other: 6

That means that all of the choices players are making in builds, gear and tactics are only slightly more impactful to their success than the level of the challenge they're facing and the whims of chance.

Impressions from play - My experience playing this system, unsurprisingly, supports this analysis. Characters succeed more when they're dealing with low level challenges and fail more with high level ones. When dice are hot, a character rarely fails and when dice are cold they rarely succeed. In many cases it's not even worth adding the bonuses. If the dice show 4, the check fails and if the dice show 17, the check succeeds. To my perspective it makes the game feel more like roulette than chess, and that makes it a lot less fun for me to play. I enjoy RPGs the most when the choices of the players and the characters have a significant impact on game and such a heavy focus on chance takes that away.

Suggestions - I suggest augmenting the bonuses from proficiency ranks. -4/0/2/4/6 seems about right, though I wouldn't be sad to see -6/0/3/6/9. This would allow characters choices to start to outweigh the die rolls.

I suggest reducing or removing the level bonus to checks. Half or even one third character level would be good. I find it disappointing to look at challenges 5 levels above or below my character level and know that they are not worth engaging because one side will roll over the other.

I also suggest, and this is something of a tangent, reworking class abilities that are tied to level appropriate DCs. It's unsatisfying to have spent build choices and actions on abilities that might or might not activate, depending on the dice. I'm specifically looking at the bard's Inspire Heroics and Lingering Performance.

What favored class bonus options do the hybrid classes have? Will they be able to take a favored class option from either of the classes that they combine? Will there be a list in the final book of favored class options for each race? Are they stuck with +1 hp/+1 skill?

I think allowing them to take options from either class makes the most sense and requires the least work from the developers.

I have a Hellknight wizard who has one level in the Hellknight Signifier PrC. I'm having some trouble figuring out the PFS legal way to handle upgrading my bonded item. As part of the PrC I get a Signifier Mask that, as far as I can tell, is a non-magical head slot item. After I perform the ritual to make it my bonded item, can I then upgrade it so that it functions as a specific head slot item, say a hat of disguise?

If I can I'm assuming that I need to:
1. Choose an item with a base price allowed by my Fame score
2. Spend the gold to pay the crafting costs
3. Make an appropriate spellcraft check to craft the item

I looked through the forums but didn't see anything that addressed upgrading a specific item as opposed to bonding a new item.

As a follow up question, assuming that I can upgrade my mask in this way, is this a one time decision? Or can I later scrap the enchantment that makes it act as a Hat of Disguise and pay the costs again to make it function as a Helm of Underwater Action?

I'm curious what other GMs have done with the sin points mechanic in the AE. I'm thinking about scattering a number of encounters throughout the AP that specifically give the PCs a chance to be sinful or virtuous. While these might be combat encounters, I'm really looking for situations more like the Shayliss/Venn Vindner encounter to really tweak my players and give them chances to explore their character's sins.

So what have you done, or what ideas do you have for encounters that give characters the chance to be Envious, Gluttonous, Greedy, Lustful, Proud, Slothful and Wrathful?

Here's the situation:
Round 1:
Monk: grapples Baddy
Baddy: Attempts to break grapple, Monk giggles

Round 2:
Monk: Makes his grapple check against Baddy, chooses to 'move'. The path of movement takes Baddy through squares threatened by Fighter who is an ally of Monk.
Baddy: Attempts his escape check with +4 bonus for being moved through a dangerous situation, Monk giggles again

Here's the question:
Does Fighter get an attack of opportunity?

The Argument for an AoO: Baddy has moved through Fighter's threatened square and so provokes an AoO. It is fair since Monk spent two round setting up this little dance and Baddy got two opportunities to resist.

The Argument against an AoO: Baddy has taken no actions that provoke AoOs. He was moved through threatened squares but took no actions of his own and cannot provoke AoOs unless the rules say otherwise (greater trip etc). It is unfair since it makes greater reposition somewhat redundant.

The grapple rules are decidedly vague on this point

Move:
You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.

I was just curious if I'm missing something about this item. It's listed in the campaign setting as a purchasable magic item yet that book doesn't say what happens when an ioun stone is inserted. Is there more coming out about this cool item?

One of my players is playing a halfling druid who is a very caring soul. When the party explored thistletop they found two goblin children in cages. She stopped the other characters from killing them and brought them home with her. She talked Madame M'vashti into keeping the goblins secret in the basement and is hoping to work out something with the master of turnadarok academy about an education. In the end, she wants to help the goblins to become something more than petty thieves and pawns for larger powers. She wants to give them something to be proud of.

My question is, What legitimate enterprise could the goblins undertake? I love the idea of at least some goblins rising above their bickering tribes but I have no good idea where to take this.

I was reading through PF6 last night and came across something that I couldn't make sense of. The description of the dwarves cabin is great, but at several points it references a storm brought up by the Wendigo yet there's no description about when the storm starts. My assumption is that it starts about the time they find the cabin and gets heavier as the story unfolds but some clarification would be nice. I was definitely caught off guard when I read about the haunt that sends the PCs stumbling out into the previously unmentioned blizzard.