The Green Faith

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Organized Play Member. 70 posts (75 including aliases). 4 reviews. No lists. 1 wishlist. 5 Organized Play characters.


Shadow Lodge

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My gaming group is working on playing through the play test adventures and I have some feedback about the skill and proficiency system. I'm going to attempt to keep this concise and avoid some of the circular discussions I've read on other similar posts.

Background - I'm an experienced gamer on the min/max end of the spectrum with experience in 3.5, pathfinder 1.0, and D&D 5E. I have so far play tested PF 2.0 at levels 1, 4, 5, 7, and 9

Thesis - I don't know how to be good at things in this game. My impression so far is that the underlying math of this system places more variance in uncontrollable factors than in choices the players can make for their characters. This makes it difficult or impossible to make a character that feels like they are good at something.

Math - Dice rolling games are about probability and variance. All checks in PF 2.0 use a d20 which has a flat probability curve and and a variance of about 5. Checks are resolved either against an arbitrary DC set by the DM, author, or developer or against another character's statistics. Since an arbitrary DC can be adjusted at any time, it's more useful to talk about opposed checks.

The numbers feeding into a check include several components, all of which are sources of variance in the result of the check. These are Dice, Level, Proficiency, Stats, Items and Conditions (including buff spells).

explanation of the magnitude of the variance
Dice: about 5, because math
Level: 5 (from -1 for easy encounters to +4 for deadly ones)
Proficiency: 7, skewed a the bottom (from -4 for untrained to +3 for legendary)
Stats: 6 (from -1 for a penalty to +5 for an invested specialist)
Items: about 3 (from 0 for basic to +3 for legendary)
Conditions: about 3 (this one is tricky to count, but in play it seems hard to stack too many conditions at once)

In practice what I have observed is that Dice and Level are the biggest sources of meaningful variance. Generally proficiency, stats, items and conditions only vary by a point or two each since everyone is generally trying to use skills (including attacks and such) that they're good at. Simplified down that leaves us:
Dice: 5
Level: 5
Other: 6

That means that all of the choices players are making in builds, gear and tactics are only slightly more impactful to their success than the level of the challenge they're facing and the whims of chance.

Impressions from play - My experience playing this system, unsurprisingly, supports this analysis. Characters succeed more when they're dealing with low level challenges and fail more with high level ones. When dice are hot, a character rarely fails and when dice are cold they rarely succeed. In many cases it's not even worth adding the bonuses. If the dice show 4, the check fails and if the dice show 17, the check succeeds. To my perspective it makes the game feel more like roulette than chess, and that makes it a lot less fun for me to play. I enjoy RPGs the most when the choices of the players and the characters have a significant impact on game and such a heavy focus on chance takes that away.

Suggestions - I suggest augmenting the bonuses from proficiency ranks. -4/0/2/4/6 seems about right, though I wouldn't be sad to see -6/0/3/6/9. This would allow characters choices to start to outweigh the die rolls.

I suggest reducing or removing the level bonus to checks. Half or even one third character level would be good. I find it disappointing to look at challenges 5 levels above or below my character level and know that they are not worth engaging because one side will roll over the other.

I also suggest, and this is something of a tangent, reworking class abilities that are tied to level appropriate DCs. It's unsatisfying to have spent build choices and actions on abilities that might or might not activate, depending on the dice. I'm specifically looking at the bard's Inspire Heroics and Lingering Performance.

Shadow Lodge

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What favored class bonus options do the hybrid classes have? Will they be able to take a favored class option from either of the classes that they combine? Will there be a list in the final book of favored class options for each race? Are they stuck with +1 hp/+1 skill?

I think allowing them to take options from either class makes the most sense and requires the least work from the developers.

Shadow Lodge

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He can keep it if your GM is very very mean and wants you to make new characters. Deals with devils and all that.

Shadow Lodge

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I would love to see a shaman that is something more like a PC version of the adept. Give it full healing and condition removing spells and a mix of the cleric and druid lists with a few select wizard divinations and such mixed in. I really like the witch/oracle combo and think it has a lot of cool, flavorful potential through totem spirits.

What I don't want to see is a shaman that is so intricately tied into the spirit world that they are almost useless when there are no incorporeal creatures in sight. I've seen too many shaman classes in various books chase that concept too far and make the class basically useless for a standard adventurer.

Shadow Lodge

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Adding on to the Timeline, here's what I've come up with for the events leading up to and surrounding the first few books. With my group, I want to add a little time pressure so everything in the first two books happens on a schedule. I might stretch this out to books three and four eventually. All the dates are approximations based on what is written in the book. Bold text are printed encounters. Obviously, all of this is Spoiler

8/8/4630 Foxglove Manor Constructed

12/21/4644 Vorel Foxglove attempts to become a lich, Manor becomes his phylactery

5/18/4662 Battle of Broken Trees, Black Arrow rangers defeat Kreeg Ogres. Fort Rannick Begun

4/1/4687 Traver Foxglove moves into Foxglove Manor

5/27/4687 Aldern Foxglove Born

1/18/4693 Cyralie Foxglove attempts to burn down Foxglove Manor, is killed by Traver. Aldern and siblings sent to orphanage.

6/21/4702 Runewells Activate- Wrath washes over Sandpoint

6/25/4702 Late Unpleasantness Begins. Lonjiku Kaijutsu kills wife, Jervis Stoot begins killing spree, Nualia burns temple and flees

6/30/4702 Nualia joins with Skinsaw Men

7/14/4702 Nualia finds catacombs of wrath, begins studying with Erylium

11/15/4702 Nualia sets up camp in Thistletop, begins to look for Malfeshnekor

3/27/4703 Aldern Foxglove returns to Magnimar

6/1/4706 Aldern joins with Skinsaw Men, reclaims Foxglove Manor

1/7/4707 Aldern harbors a group of Varisian travelers from a storm, meets Iesha

1/11/4707 Aldern and Iesha marry

6/7/4707 Aldern kills Iesha

8/20/4707 Aldern goes bankrupt due to Brothers of the Seven blackmail

9/12/4707 Barl Breakbones takes over Kreeg Ogre Clans. Hag Coven Starts filling the Storval Deep

9/21/4707 Swallowtail Festival in Sandpoint, Campaign Begins, First Goblin Attack

9/23/4707 Boar Hunt

9/24/4707 Aldern returns to Foxglove Manor, contracts Vorels Phage

9/24/4707 Grim News from Mosswood
9/25/4707 Aldern dies and becomes a Ghast

9/26/4707 Monster in the Closet (Evening)

9/27/4707 Missing Bartender (Morning)

10/2/4707 The First Murders

10/4/4707 Murder Most Foul

10/18/4707 Mayor of Magnimar asks party to check on Fort Rannick