Thank you. That covers exactly what I wanted to know
Giving some of my teammates a torch or sunstick can still be useful and grabbing a ranged weapon to be able to use light to illuminate where enemies might be hiding could be useful in some situations. I'm playing Second Darkness and assume we might spend time underground
This spell causes a touched object to glow like a torch, shedding normal light in a 20-foot radius, and increasing the light level for an additional 20 feet by one step, up to normal light (darkness becomes dim light, and dim light becomes normal light). In an area of normal or bright light, this spell has no effect. The effect is immobile, but it can be cast on a movable object.
Meanwhile Sunrod states
This 1-foot-long, gold-tipped iron rod glows brightly when struck (a standard action). It sheds normal light in a 30-foot radius and increases the light level by one step for an additional 30 feet beyond that area (darkness becomes dim light and dim light becomes normal light). A sunrod does not increase the light level in normal light or bright light. It glows for 6 hours, after which the gold tip is burned out and worthless.
So these are both different sources of light. Does this mean that if light is cast on the sunrod would expand the normal light distance from 30 for the sunrod to the combined 40 with the overlap? Thus expanding the sunrod's normal light radius from 30 to 40?
I'm happy with the cantrips they have released. 3d4 when you want to single target is good and how they are handling it with a 1d8 burst and a 2d4 line as well as a 2d4 ranged but 2d6 melee cantrip it feels like there is less of a cantrip meta that existed with electric arc and telekinetic projectile.
The area of effect cantrips bring good damage if you catch some creatures in it. The single target of 3d4 that can cause bleed and can interact with cold iron weakness is cool too.
I think a lot is being assumed that scrolls are a playerside issue and not that good division of loot by a GM should include things not just useful for martials but also casters. Yes it's a good idea to buy a few scrolls at start as you are saving on weapons and armor. But as you go on your adventure if you aren't recieving loot that is useful to you then that is a problem too.
I know at least as a GM i'm not adversarial to my players. This is as much same in 2e as i was in 1e. Unless you are running society any adventure you can look at customizing encounters to give chances for each player to shine.
If you know there is something that is weak to your wizards favorite spell throw it in! In between prep of sessions a small tweak like that can greatly enhance a low level character's experience.
Overall, we shouldn't assume that this is a 4 player vs an uncaring GM like in the CRPGs. If a player doesn't seem to be enjoying low levels their character it's a chance to see if there is anything you can do to help their experience or if the player just doesn't like the character to redo their character.
A fatal flaw of whiteboarding this stuff is that it doesn't play into the gm side of things. While it may be harder for a GM to adapt in a session you have time in between.
I would have to go through adventure paths but in general if your only loot is martial loot you aren't making things fun for your casters.
Actual question for others as maybe I'm just too generous of a gm
I keep track of casters favorite spells or useful ones for an upcoming fight. When casters run out of spells I often throw a scroll into the loot. It's a great way low level to keep them going and sometimes I can throw in one that is a spell they might not consider otherwise that is good.
Am I being overly generous? I know it technically increases the wealth by level but it find for early levels as long as they are used and not hoarded or sold its been fine.
I just wonder because I know aps and such don't provide as much so my generosity to the party can change my experience running things and witness of early game experience
Wizards have with draining bond and focus *5* spells minimum. More with refocusing.
Sorcerers get 3+focus
The only true classes with 2 spells and no real focus spells that can be recharged are Bard and Witch. Which have their own special cantrips.
Clerics can get a focus or some melee combat ability. And they have 1 or more heal spells on top
Even druids get some pretty strong abilities that are only going to be stronger now without the metal hinderance.
Early game spellcasters are fine.
Sure a 3d4 cantrip can get three ones but the probability it gets a 4 or more is pretty good. There is a reason why most would rather 3d4 than 1d12. So far as long as we have seen there is a 3d4 cantrip for a single target and we also have a 2d4 line and a 2d4 ranged with d6 melee.
There is still more you can do than just spam cantrips. If a wizard can refocus while others heal up and given the chance can have 2 non-cantrip spells a combat for four whole combats.
IF there are more 3d4 cantrips then it's not some massive loss. There always is more fun even at low levels than just spamming cantrips.
it doesn't really matter if you pick a focus power that isn't damage but it's a control or support or whatever you want.
a focus spell is generally more powerful than a cantrip, being able to use 2-3 of them each combat instead of 1 is 2-3 rounds of combat that you don't have to spam cantrips.
it is a massive change regardless of the type of focus powers you pick (as long as they are good powers ofc).
I'll concede my poor wording and rephrase:
It just punishes you even harder if you take a non-damagingcombat focus spell.
Also to respond to an earlier point: Tangle Vine is exactly Tanglefoot.
I can only speak for my own tables, but generally players don't like waiting around on one person past the first 10 minute between combat break. If caster A spends 3 focus points, caster B spends 1, only one round of ooc healing is required, plus 10 minutes of shield repair work, there's a very decent chance that caster A isn't getting their full resources back anyway. In which case, we're in the same spot as before except our cantrips are worse.
A lot of these problems naturally resolve themselves over the course of a campaign:
More spells slots means less reliance on cantrips
More stuff needs doing between fights so breaks tend to become a bit longer between fights
Even in current PF2, the +stat to damage matters less and less as we get more dice.
But those problems are more prevalent at low levels, where the change to cantrips is going to feel the worst. And it's the part of the game that gets substantially the most play.
Right it does hurt non-combat focus spells. However there are only a few that spells+ focus spell are your only features to contribute to combat
Druids get enough martial ability to be in melee and especially now with the armor and shield change.
Clerics if they are warpriest now have melee. Cloistered clerics though can get kinda screwed with their domain. The font helps but doesn't fix this for them.
Bards still have inspire courage and what you can do depends on your muse. The loss of spell casting mod reduces their cantrip damage from the few damage cantrips it has but it has a ton of non-damage cantrips
Only life oracles would arguably have a less combat affecting thing but life link is still decent
Psychics may be hurt but they do start with elevated focus points
Diabolic sourcerers don't seem to get a great combat use focus spell. Draconic requires i think specific focus due to it being melee. Imperial is not really combat oriented. Nymph doesn't either. Undead is a bit situational and wyrmblessed is just another draconic.
Witches has hex cantrips that I hope get some love as well as their familiar.
Wizards we will see what the focus spells are. I hope they are mostly combat focused.
But talking about your single refocus that still gives at first level 3-5 combats where you get your focus and 1st rank spell in a combat that's unlikely to last more than 3 rounds. It does really hurt if you chose a non-combat focus spell however most classes have option that are more than spells or have focus spells that are all for combat.
We will see what cantrips are available but a 2d4 line, a 2d4 ranged with d6 melee and a 3d4 cantrip suggests that they won't be useless.
If someone three action strikes with the third being -10 sure.
2d4 compared to 1d4+4 is less consistent but it's not anywhere near useless. Considering the cantrip we know about increases it to 1d6 for melee and we haven't seen the secondary effects on others I'm hesitant to say that 2d4 makes low level spell casters using cantrips horribly worse.
We have a cantrip already in rage of elements that does 3d4 and this one does 2d4 but has a second purpose. I don't think removal of spellcasting modifier is going to ruin low level play at all and I trust the design team.
The problem I had was that cantrips were effective enough that the spell resources players had they didn't feel compelled to use because it was working well enough.
Encouraging spending the resources you have I think is good.
Last, I'm not saying spellcasters can't do damage but the system as part of being versatile sacrifices the option to do the consistant damage of martials for the many things casters can do.
Players using all the resouces at their disposal is a good thing.
Sure 2d4 is lower average but it's not horrible. Especially against something with a weakness.
That's quite fair - and 3d4 does alleviate a lot of the pain right there, as you and numerous other people have said (and the chance to ping weakness is gravy, but it's very nice gravy).
I think people (including me) may be more concerned with ignition - caster damage was already low, and it's 1.5 points lower than the old produce flame on average for only ~5 damage vs. 6.5 points. Compare to a fighter with a greataxe, who is dealing 1d12+4 ~ 10.5 with a single action, or even worse, a fighter with a greataxe and power attack, who is dealing 2d12+4 ~ 17 with two, and it's depressing.
Yes but it's a very useful spell now for eldritch trickster or magus.It now does at base for melee 2d6. I'm excited for it as someone who loves eldritch trickster even if it isn't the best because 2d6+1d6 at second level is alright and then at 3rd it's 3d6+1d6
I welcome a nerf to damage cantrips. Damage cantrips crowded out other options and I believe contributed to misunderstandings on the purpose of casters. Cantrips did enough damage and such that new players leaned on them hard instead of exploring the various things you can do like skill actions, recall knowledges if it's fixed, contributing with their high mental stats to things like demoralize or working as a battle medicine user in worst case.
There are other cantrips and the new figment and tangle vine look like solid options.
As it was new players got a feel that cantrips have a similar feel to their counterpart in 5e and from such it's easy to see how that can influence perceptions of the class due to blasting being a more sparing action. Furthermore the dominance of damage cantrips means other cantrips got ignored.
Damage Cantrips still hold a niche but you have to consider your actions more.
I think another good aspect of this is with cantrips being less of a great low level options is to encourage less spell hoarding. Usually with focus spells you start with 4 or 5 usable spells and given time to refocus that can be a lot higher. Having to consider using your resources more often to me is just a benefit. I at least have seen new players be hesitant with using their spells and just cantrip spam.
2d4 is not terrible damage early on. By the time you get to 3rd level most casters will have a nice pool of spells and with focus points now expanding based on the number of focus spells you know means for most combats you will have a spell and focus spell to cast and sometimes two spells and a focus spell. With your average combat length that to me feels fine. You can use level spell-> focus spell-> cantrip to finish off and a lot of combats will be cleaning up by then
They aren't really changing the number of focus points you have. They're just clarifying that rule which was sometimes printed, sometimes not saying "if you already have a focus pool,...
Focus Spells
Though the details don’t come up in Rage of Elements,
the way characters gain and recharge Focus Points has
been simplified in the Remaster. Abilities that give you
focus spells no longer mention how many Focus Points
they add to your pool because the rules have been
simplified: The maximum number of Focus Points in
your pool is always equal to the number of focus spells
you know.
The Refocus action is now less limited as well. Here’s
the new version!
Maximum number equal to the focus spells you know is a clear increase. Before you were locked to 3. Furthermore focus points were usually increased by feats up to that 3.
Now you have as many points as spells which means it's possible to go higher
If someone three action strikes with the third being -10 sure.
2d4 compared to 1d4+4 is less consistent but it's not anywhere near useless. Considering the cantrip we know about increases it to 1d6 for melee and we haven't seen the secondary effects on others I'm hesitant to say that 2d4 makes low level spell casters using cantrips horribly worse.
We have a cantrip already in rage of elements that does 3d4 and this one does 2d4 but has a second purpose. I don't think removal of spellcasting modifier is going to ruin low level play at all and I trust the design team.
The problem I had was that cantrips were effective enough that the spell resources players had they didn't feel compelled to use because it was working well enough.
Encouraging spending the resources you have I think is good.
Last, I'm not saying spellcasters can't do damage but the system as part of being versatile sacrifices the option to do the consistant damage of martials for the many things casters can do.
Players using all the resouces at their disposal is a good thing.
Sure 2d4 is lower average but it's not horrible. Especially against something with a weakness.
How so? I've witnessed cantrip spam before and it's come from watching newer players. This is primarily impacting low levels as it doesn't take long for a cantrip to fall off. Granted this is with newer players.
Most spellcasters are not primary damage dealers and should not be consistant damage dealers.
And like I've said they have shown two reworked cantrips that do things other than damage that to me look really useful and I hope that is expanded
I welcome a nerf to damage cantrips. Damage cantrips crowded out other options and I believe contributed to misunderstandings on the purpose of casters. Cantrips did enough damage and such that new players leaned on them hard instead of exploring the various things you can do like skill actions, recall knowledges if it's fixed, contributing with their high mental stats to things like demoralize or working as a battle medicine user in worst case.
There are other cantrips and the new figment and tangle vine look like solid options.
As it was new players got a feel that cantrips have a similar feel to their counterpart in 5e and from such it's easy to see how that can influence perceptions of the class due to blasting being a more sparing action. Furthermore the dominance of damage cantrips means other cantrips got ignored.
Damage Cantrips still hold a niche but you have to consider your actions more.
I think another good aspect of this is with cantrips being less of a great low level options is to encourage less spell hoarding. Usually with focus spells you start with 4 or 5 usable spells and given time to refocus that can be a lot higher. Having to consider using your resources more often to me is just a benefit. I at least have seen new players be hesitant with using their spells and just cantrip spam.
2d4 is not terrible damage early on. By the time you get to 3rd level most casters will have a nice pool of spells and with focus points now expanding based on the number of focus spells you know means for most combats you will have a spell and focus spell to cast and sometimes two spells and a focus spell. With your average combat length that to me feels fine. You can use level spell-> focus spell-> cantrip to finish off and a lot of combats will be cleaning up by then
IIRC that is already kind of included in the Core and other class books for each class, isn't it?
The point is a small book to present to players because when you say oh this huge book and these pages it's intimidating.
Something the size of the Travel guide but instead of focusing on intro into the Inner Sea area on a primer to playing with some hints and stratagies as well as a condensed how to play.
I've been playing and GMing PF for a very long time. One of the things I really appreciated was the strategy guide for pathfinder first edition.
With the revision I was wondering if something like that might be a good fit too? A small little booklet that just introduces pathfinder 2e and the rules for people new to pathfinder or completely new to tabletop games and does so in a small book that doesn't feel so overwhelming to a newcomer. Things like the quiz to help people realize a theme and then showing multiple classes that could fit it I think is great for new players. Some sample builds around that theme that reminds people there is so much more was great too because it suggested that there could be alternatives in the sample builds.
I think something breaking down the style of combat being about teamwork and talking about how teamwork helps so much and what tactics you can do would do a lot!
Something like that third action attack is risky! Here are some other things that might help your allies so they can do damage they might not otherwise.
I just really value stuff that helps beginners and looks more approachable than a rulebook. IT makes convincing someone to play so much easier.
I'm running under the second option ( if you are participating in the Rise of
the Runelords Adventure Path with an ongoing group undertaking the entire, six-chapter campaign, you may receive credit for playing the sanctioned portions of the adventure as if you had played a pregenerated character. In this case, GMs running the Adventure Path are not
bound to the rules of the Pathfnder Society Organized Play campaign (such as 20-point buy, unavailability of hero points, etc.) when running the campaign or the sanctioned portion of the adventure. Pathfnder Society characters and characters from an ongoing AdventurePath campaign may not play in the same adventure)
Does this allow me to tweek encounters for difficulty sake? Like add an extra mob if the group is running through encounters too fast?
I discussed with my DM and he is allowing the dimensional anchor from stopping a dismissal.
However, I am stuck with a certain part of the eidolon feature. When an eidolon dies, it is sent back to its home plane to regenerate. If dimensional anchor is cast, then is it destroyed if it dies as the spell doesn't allow it to return?
If so, that would completely remove the use of dimensional anchor to stop dismissal.
Do they interact at all? Can you make a charge, your lance hits the target, and then your mount pounces on them and makes their attacks. And then it jumps off and scurries away.
Or does doing pounce limit you to just the pounce?
Would an eidolon be able to have mage armor on it? I know a monk can get by the wear no armor and I would think it would work similarily on an eidolon.
This requires you to have a Strength of 17, but it will work. It can also be accomplished by taking a level in monk. Dragon style will help you a ton and will make this all possible from anywhere.
Dragon style means you can charge through anything. Power attack gives you quite a bit of damage. Spirited charge will be your bread and butter as well as ride by attack.
The really cool thing is that you can take archery feats to give yourself something for when it isn't safe to charge. Not to mention that you can get some impressive archery out of a halfling due to the dex increase.
Take weapon finesse and you will have a great chance to hit, making him consistent in dealing damage. Sure others will outdo him in damage, though you should be getting some pretty nice damage. I once had it worked out, but I don't recall at the moment. You are always attacking at your highest BAB. Combined with your weapon training and greater weapon focus, you will be having an easy time hitting.
Critical and it turns into a x6, instead of a x3. So when you do hit, which should be 10% of the time, you do massive damage.
This ends up with him having a pretty good dpr due to him consistantly putting out max damage every turn. Some more benefits are that penetrating strike cancels out a ton of damage resistance and anything that isn't canceled out is only subtracted for a total.
Compare it to a dr 20. With 4 attacks, you would have a 80 damage reduction or 40 with penetrating strike. Instead you lose only 20 without penetrating strike and 10 with penetrating strike.
The thing the halfing gets is that he can ride things that can go into caves and stuff because it is only a medium creature.
Halfling chargers are some pretty decent characters.
I was playing a game yesterday and we were on the rooftops of a city in combat. We had already been in combat for 3 turns and all the enemies were revealed.
He then said that two of the enemies were studying a player character. I knew immediatly that he was trying to do a death attack.
The problem was that we could see the assassins and we knew they were there. Even he said that our characters could see them.
I knew that he was going to try to kill a character who had a low fortitude and so I tried to mention that he couldn't do it because the book stated that it only works if the target is unaware of you. I said it was an add-on to a sneak attack and that it would only be usable in situations.
He tried to state that the death attack was allowed because we didn't know that he was going to do a death attack and that it was okay to do when it was their first attack.
Instead of arguing further, i had my character (who could see them herself) shout out to the character targeted to take cover. That character dropped off the roof and broke the line of sight so all the studying was gone to waste.
So my questions are, can you do a death attack when you wouldn't get a sneak attack? Even if you are discovered, if the target is flanked or otherwise denied his dexterity can you do it?
The person who was the target wasn't flanked or denied their dexterity so i am positive that she shouldn't have had to hide
After talking further, i found out that a person that I really do not like is going into the game. I am worried that this person will make playing miserable, so i don't think I will go to it.
Well, I got back from filling in for a game and got to discuss further about a game I was invited to.
At first I was told to play an archer. Now I am told that they need someone to either soak up damage or sit there and be impossible to hit. So they say sword and board or something like a barbarian.
The thing that really bothers me. I'm told at first that I can do archetypes and feats from advanced guide. Now I'm being told that you can get weapons and traits from the adventurers armory and advanced players guide, but nothing else.
No feats from advanced. No classes from advanced. No archetypes.
Every single thing else must be from the core rulebook.
The problem is that I do really want to have a reason to hang out with my friends and I don't have many opportunities to do so. It gives me the ability to spend some time with people when I want to do so. I just have the problem that it doesn't sound very fun.
So what do you think? Playing an almost vanilla game where I can't do any of the things I like and I'm basically forced by party makeup to play one thing.
If yes, what do you suggest?
I want to play something different and some ideas would be great. I want to try something fun and unexpected that is able to be up there taking hit or being hard to hit.
Honestly if there was a class that wasn't a fighter or a barbarian that could do that from the core, I'd love to hear suggestions!
Sometimes following RAW to the letter can cause something to be hurt. And that is fun. Enforcing that the monk can't use haste on his unarmed strikes takes a bit of fun out of playing him as you can't do any other swift action but use a ki point to get that extra attack.
You only get one swift action a turn and that restricts the monk even further. Normally a character can be hasted and then they get a free attack and they are still able to do a swift action.
You might say that a monk has plenty of attacks already. They basically get greater two weapon fighting for free. But that is forgetting some of the drawbacks of the monk.
A monk can't put weapon enhancements on his fists. His damage is mostly figured by power attack and strength. He doesn't get weapon specialization. In order to have a decent AC, he must have a good dex and wisdom. Since his attack and damage is determined by strength, he is going to be extremely MAD if he wants to still do things like flurry.
So do you really want to take away something else from the monk?
I would suggest that at very worst you only let him have either a ki point for the extra attack or use haste for the extra attack. Not both.
This build was heavily inspired by http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz55e4?Zen-and-the-Art-of-Monk-Maintenance-A-Guid e-to
Archbury the Qinggong Zen Archaeologist
Trait: Vagabond Child
Stats
Spoiler:
20 point buy 13 str/13 dex/ 10 con/ 17 wis(+2)/ 10 int/ 12 cha
With items 23 str/ 23 dex/ 16 con/ int 10/ wis 34/ 14 cha
I decided not to dump int because I like being able to roleplay characters without them being herp derp. It isn't optimized the most, but it is meant to be used in roleplay as well as combat.
Perception: +53
Disable Device: +35
Initiative +5
Invest in wisdom to bring it up to 24
Qingogng zen archer 8/ Archaeologist 12
you need the +2 to charisma fairly early on for the purpose of learning bard spells. Get it as soon as possible
other items that would be extremely helpful: Belt of physical perfection +6, tome of wisdom +4, manual of strength +4, manual of dexterity +4, boots of speed +5, +5 bow of 22 str
anything else might be great. Just don't know what is what
bard spells known at 20 6 0th, 6 1st, 5 2nd, 4 3rd, 4 4th
Pros of this class choice: strong archer. this character gets 6 attacks and 7 with spending a ki point or using boots of speed.
Great saves. Your fortitude is your weakness, but your reflex and will are awesome and will be hard to beat.
regarding defence
Spoiler:
Awesome defensive ability. Your dex and wisdom bonus will be awesome . this is a real benefit as your dex bonus is not restricted by armor. This makes that 22 dex give you a +6 on top of the 11 bonus of your wisdom. Combine it with items to really give yourself some nice AC. You should be fighting defensively every turn which gives you a +3 bonus to your AC.
Now, if I compare porpentine's one and gave this build the same equipment with the only change that the headband give +2 to charisma instead of intelligence, I would think it would compare. The difference is one Dexterity point, and 3 additions to the monk AC.
Archbury will be fighting defensively so he gains +3 to his AC. So he misses out on one point of AC that One had. So his total AC would be 52 and 39 touch.
But that isn't your real defense here. Your real defense isn't as obvious and it comes in the form of crane wing, deflect arrows, and improved evasion. Uncanny dodge helps too by removing the ability to flat-footed.
As long as you use fighting defensively and let one hand off your bow, you are immune to a melee class from charging you or moving up more than a 5 foot step to attack you. If two of them do it, you won't avoid the second one, but you save yourself from the first. This is quite helpful as it means you won't have to rely on AC if you stay out of range. Normally a fighter would take the hit if a fighter decided to charge them.
Deflect arrows protects you from vital strike from another archer, any singular attack, and prevents manyshot from working. You block automatically a ranged character's highest attack and if they are using manyshot, their two highest attacks. That will only help mildly against another zen archer, but will protect you from the fighter with manyshot. Any further attacks will be at least 5 BAB less, allowing your defenses to shine. This does not apply to a zen archer flurrying however. So it will only protect you from one attack from a zen archer.
Evasion and improved evasion helps you out as well. Any attack that allows you a save for half damage will only deal half damage if you fail, but if you succeed you take no damage. You should have pretty nice reflex saves, so you won't have a problem making them, protecting you from damage further.
Your CMD will not be as good as One and your saves aren't going to be quite as high as one's. Your fortitude will suffer with only +13. That is your main weak point. Something that can target that will be your downfall.
Your reflex should be fairly high, I don't know exactly what to use to calculate it. I would think that it would be only one less than One's. Which would make it a +26. however that is probably wrong. Your will should be just as high as One's though.
Overall you won't be as resistant with saves as One. But you will still have some pretty great ones.
You also lack the spell resistance, which is a good thing and a bad thing. When you are by yourself, spell resistance is good to have. When you are in a group, trying to overcome it can be annoying to say the least
You will make your rogue jealous with your ability to find traps and disable them. Rogues wish they could be as cool as you. But they aren't. Your perception will be legendary and your disable device will be pretty nice as well.
Another nice thing is that your bard abilities give you the ability to buff yourself. This can help make up for saves and increase your attack bonus and even damage. If you have the right bow hanging around, you can take advantage of things that increase your strength for more damage.
I don't know what spells to know to learn that would be most useless, so i'd need some help there.
damage
Spoiler:
Now comes the part about damage. You will not beat one here. You have one less attack and two less notches of deadly aim. Your BAB will not be as high. So you lose damage there.
However you are anything but a pushover. Since you don't have the monk levels, using unarmed damage for arrows will only change it from a d8 to a d10.
This is why I grabbed arcane strike. Every time when you use it, you get +3 to damage. I find that to be more valuable than changing a d8 to a d10
Base attack +15 Base flurry +17
Fist +21/16/12 (1d10+6)
Bow Deadly (+29/24/19) (I think i am calculating things wrong. I am thinking bab 15- 3 for deadly aim= 12. Plus one for weapon focus to make it 13. And then +5 for a +5 enhancement bonus to the bow to make it +18. And then 12 for the wisdom to make it 30. minus 1 for fight defensivly)
Damage is 1d8+6 for str+ 5 for enhancement+ 3 Arcane Strike + 2 weapon specialization + 6 deadly aim=1d8+ 22. +1 for each attack after the first, magic weapon
Bow deadly flurry Hasted (+31/+31/+31/+26/+26/+21/+16)( 1d8+24, +1 for each attack after the first, magic weapon)
Now the cool part here is that you can add in your Archaeologist's luck ability. for the first round after you do it, you can't use magic weapon so your damage drops by 3 but then is increased by three.
As long as you have your luck going, which you can have for 8 turns, you get +3 on attack rolls, damage rolls, skill checks, and saving throws. This is a nice little boost and is what I feel keeps the character competitive with other archers.
One nice thing about zen characters is that they can make attacks of opportunity with their elbow. It works really well when combined with Riposte because you get to hit once with your fist at +21 for 1d10+6. It isn't the end of the world, but every bit helps.
You have a good CMB for being sundered and people can't pass by you or else they will get an elbow to their face for an attack of opportunity. If they don't have the sunder feat, then they will also draw an attack of opportunity. You could swap out the skill focus for Combat reflexes and make sure that anyone who tries to get past will get an attack of opportunity, or else you can only make one.
At level 18, you also get Jack of all trades. This allows you to use any skill. A pretty handy ability. You also get Lore Master and you can take 10 on knowledge skill checks. Another useful ability.
Overall I could use some tweaking, help on what spells to choose, and advice on items. Any commentary would be helpful. Help figuring out the exact stats would help a ton too
If I can get permission to do the archetype, then i'll end up doing a ZA 9/ Empyreal sorcerer 1/ Arcane Archer 10
I really like this build, though I would go less ZA and more Sorc.
ZA 8 would work well because you get that second delicious attack. Your main focus is the bow, so you don't want to lose that extra flurry. So ZA8/Sorcerer 2/AA 10. This ends up with 8 levels of sorcerer, BAB flurrying of +17/+17/+12/+12/+7/+2. Which matches up with the fighter.
You lose greater weapon proficiency and one notch of deadly aim in exchange for the AA abilities and 4th level spells.
Leaving at 6 gives you +16/+16/+11/+6/+1
One less attack than the fighter, though honestly manyshot suffers in the crit department. But then you gain 5th level spells. Which is a nice bonus for not losing too much BAB
It was really for an archer cleric who only took zen archer up until level 3.
with flurry you would end up with 13/13/8/3. without flurry you would end up with 13 (x2)/13/8/3. You would end up with one more attack and that would be hard to pass up.
Remember, flurry uses monk level for BAB, but otherwise you use standard monk BAB.
So flurry vs. rapidshot attack bonus progression (manyshot damage indicated by *), build given in first post:
Level 4 - ZA3/Cleric 1: +1/+1 vs. +0/+0
Level 5 - ZA3/Cleric 2: +2/+2 vs. +1/+1
Level 6 - ZA3/Cleric 3: +3/+3 vs. +2/+2
Level 7 - ZA3/Cleric 4: +4/+4/-1 vs. +3/+3
Level 8 - ZA3/Cleric 5: +4/+4/-1 vs. +3/+3
Level 9 - ZA3/Cleric 6: +5/+5/+0 vs. +4(x2)/+4/-1
Level 10 - ZA3/Cleric 7: +6/+6/+1 vs. +5(x2)/+5/+0
Level 11 - ZA3/Cleric 8: +7/+7/+2 vs. +6(x2)/+6/+1
Level 12 - ZA3/Cleric 9: +7/+7/+2 vs. +6(x2)/+6/+1
Level 13 - ZA3/Cleric 10: +8/+8/+3 vs. +7(x2)/+7/+2
Level 14 - ZA3/Cleric 11: +9/+9/+4/-1 vs. +8(x2)/+8/+3
Level 15 - ZA3/Cleric 12: +10/+10/+5/+0 vs. +9(x2)/+9/+4/-1
Level 16 - ZA3/Cleric 13: +10/+10/+5/+0 vs. +9(x2)/+9/+4/-1
Level 17 - ZA3/Cleric 14: +11/+11/+6/+1 vs. +10(x2)/+10/+5/+0
Level 18 - ZA3/Cleric 15: +12/+12/+7/+2 vs. +11(x2)/+11/+6/+1
Level 19 - ZA3/Cleric 16: +13/+13/+8/+3 vs. +12(x2)/+12/+7/+2
Level 20 - ZA3/Cleric 17: +13/+13/+8/+3 vs. +12(x2)/+12/+7/+2
So, you spend two feats and -1 to attacks to get the Manyshot damage bonus.
Comparatively, flurry progression from a ZA4-then-cleric build that uses a ki point to gain an attack in a flurry:
After weighing things, I think I could be an excelent archer with a ZA6/ cleric 14 build.
If I can get permission to do the archetype, then i'll end up doing a ZA 9/ Empyreal sorcerer 1/ Arcane Archer 10
Grant me access to gravity bow and some tricks with sorcerer. Better yet it would be based off of wisdom. Then I would have normal progression for BAB with arcane archer and be able to choose the element of my arrows to overcome damage reduction.
The other thing i thought about was ZA 8/ Archaeologist 12. Give me a self buff, some bard spells up to 4th level, and rogue abilities. Evasion, improved evasion, and uncanny dodge. Very nice stuff
A good DM should be able to accommodate whatever mix of characters his players want to play. Often people like having distinct roles - but a party of all melee types is just as possible as a party of all rogues or all arcane casters. Gaps in the party in terms of traditional roles or skills are just one more challenge for the players to overcome. It may mean that some encounters are harder for one party than for another (ie a single channel focused cleric can singlehandedly take out or at least seriously weaken a group of low level undead that a party without a channeling cleric may find a tough fight at low levels.)
But this is a feature of the game. Part of what makes it fun - at times every player at the table should have a chance to shine and to contribute. I mostly run PFS these days and part of what I enjoy about running the same scenarios multiple times for different people is seeing how different groups play out different choices and abilities.
I agree with everyone above that this DM seems overly fixated on a very specific party structure - makes me suspect he has a strong tendency towards railroading.
It is really really frustrating because he isn't allowing ultimate magic or combat and can't be any class that isn't found in the core rulebook.
I'd love to be a halfling archer cavalier that is able to charge in when he sees an opportunity. Or a gunslinger. Or a zen monk/ inquisitor combination. Possibly a myrmidarch. Though I could be a Kensai and do wonderful things as well.
It is hard to fill a role when many archetypes that would be really good or would be fun flavor aren't allowed. I would love to have guided hands, but I can't because ultimate magic isn't involved.
I think if i recall right it is because he ordered books, but that didn't include ultimate magic or ultimate combat.
It really doesn't help that I only have contact with him once every two months maybe until the game actually starts. I can't discuss anything. All i was told was to make an archer and that i couldn't use UM or UC. Also only core classes
A good DM should be able to accommodate whatever mix of characters his players want to play. Often people like having distinct roles - but a party of all melee types is just as possible as a party of all rogues or all arcane casters. Gaps in the party in terms of traditional roles or skills are just one more challenge for the players to overcome. It may mean that some encounters are harder for one party than for another (ie a single channel focused cleric can singlehandedly take out or at least seriously weaken a group of low level undead that a party without a channeling cleric may find a tough fight at low levels.)
But this is a feature of the game. Part of what makes it fun - at times every player at the table should have a chance to shine and to contribute. I mostly run PFS these days and part of what I enjoy about running the same scenarios multiple times for different people is seeing how different groups play out different choices and abilities.
I agree with everyone above that this DM seems overly fixated on a very specific party structure - makes me suspect he has a strong tendency towards railroading.
It is really really frustrating because he isn't allowing ultimate magic or combat and can't be any class that isn't found in the core rulebook.
I'd love to be a halfling archer cavalier that is able to charge in when he sees an opportunity. Or a gunslinger. Or a zen monk/ inquisitor combination. Possibly a myrmidarch. Though I could be a Kensai and do wonderful things as well.
It is hard to fill a role when many archetypes that would be really good or would be fun flavor aren't allowed. I would love to have guided hands, but I can't because ultimate magic isn't involved.
I think if i recall right it is because he ordered books, but that didn't include ultimate magic or ultimate combat.
It really doesn't help that I only have contact with him once every two months maybe until the game actually starts. I can't discuss anything. All i was told was to make an archer and that i couldn't use UM or UC
Viletta has the right idea. With good reason a DM can put restrictions on what classes or alignments are available to be played, e.g., You guys are saving the world and going to be dealing with good deities, no evil alignments.
Telling you what to play is a huge red flag. If your character dies are you going to have to roll up *another* archer? I know you said you agreed to it because you want in the game, but I'd wager the game isn't going to be worth playing if he's going to be that constricting. I'd talk to him and at least get an explanation as to why he's being the way he is. Even if you show up to a PFS game with no character you still get a choice of what you want to play out of like, a million pre-gens.
For some reason this DM has in his mind that there has to be a sword and board fighter, a cleric, an archer, a rogue and a wizard.
A party in pathfinder doesn't work like that. Enemies will ignore someone they can't hit and go for someone that they can hit.
Clerics being healers in battle are incorrect in my opinion. They can do all sorts of healing outside of battle and can remove ailments inside battles, but their tiny healing won't compare with killing the enemy faster. You can get by just fine with potions.
Rogue isn't needed if you have all the books as you can find other ways to deal with traps or you can play something like an archaeologist. You don't need a rogue to play.
A wizard is useful, especially for batttlefield control. Sure he can do the blaster and be fairly good at it, but a physical class can handle damage just fine
So there isn't this clearcut you need certain classes/ certain roles. I had a party once made up of a ninja, rogue, a summoner, and an alchemist.
It was fun in game and we had the ninja and rogue flanking to give eachother sneak attacks. The summoner would help with flanking with his eidolon.
It was quite fun and we didn't have a wizard, a cleric, or a sword and board fighter.
For the first few levels, we didn't even have the alchemist. The DM decided that he wanted to help us out of combat to supply potions. There was no in combat healing
Zen Archers, like monks, can ignore the requirements for their bonus feats. So they don't technically need a 13 Dex for Rapid Shot.
But that said, there is nearly no reason to take Rapid Shot for a Zen Archer - both are full round actions but the Flurry will always be better. Maybe if you were planning on using many different ranged weapons or if you really wanted a feat that requires Rapid Shot as a prerequisite but that's mostly unnecessary for Zen Archers. (Clustered Shot and Deadly Aim are the main archery feats a Zen Archer may want but can't get as bonus feats)
A Zen Archer may want STR for a composite bow to add to his damage output - though even without a composite bow a zen archer of at least 6th level (with Weapon Specialization) + Deadly Aim will do a lot of damage.
It was really for an archer cleric who only took zen archer up until level 3.
with flurry you would end up with 13/13/8/3. without flurry you would end up with 13 (x2)/13/8/3. You would end up with one more attack and that would be hard to pass up.
Not only that, but you could wear armor then and not have a problem
Why not straight Cleric? Choose a god with a bow as a favored weapon, and nab Guided Hand.
Full spellcasting, wear armor, and use wisdom for attack rolls with bows.
Pick up a Adaptive Composite Bow as soon as possible.
Guided hand is an Ultimate combat feat.
Not only that, but i'd lose out on one attack, one notch of deadly aim, and delayed archery feats and maybe being locked out of some due to requiring higher dex to qualify for feats like manyshot and rapid shot. Making it way more MAD. A requirement for 17 dex isn't a small requirement and you will end up having to sacrifice something.
Then you lose out with having no zennish elbow to defend yourself.
You lose two feats trying to get Guided hand and when archery is so feat intensive already, that really hurts.
I want more utility stuff rather than full spellcasting. If I can get ultimate combat or ultimate magic, I could class zen 8/ archaeologist 12. Then I would get trap finding and a nice +3 boost to my attack and damage plus arcane strike.
That would put the damage and attack bonus on par with a fighter and give you 4th level bard abilities. Not to mention evasion, increased ki pool, improved evasion, and even further improved perception.
17 BAB when flurrying for one extra attack over the fighter when you use ki points. You also get +3 to make it equal to the fighter or full zen archer.
Sorry about how long it took me to get back to this. Anyway the thread I had before was this http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz62fr?Cleric-archer-build-idea#1
If you're trying to make it a decent spell caster and archer you shouldn't really go past 3 levels of Zen archer, if you take only 3 levels you can still get 9th level spells and for this build you only need a high wisdom, a high dex helps till you can take the third level of zen archer but you'll be pumping wisdom from then on.
Domain wise I was lucky and got my gm to ok taking the druid hawk domain so I get aspect of the falcon as a domain spell. So see if your gm will ok that if not try and find another archery friendly domain.
I decided that I want a archer with some spell casting utility. Not really a spellcaster, but someone who can buff themselves and cast some stuff out of combat. Get some situational advantages and less full casting power.
There is a dedicated cleric and a wizard for the real spellcasting, this is just some interesting flavor .
I think the 6th zen/ 14th cleric looks pretty good. Not as powerful as a pure zen archer, but plenty useful.
It is really tempting. The only thing holding me back from that is that it delays my spellcasting by 4 levels, making me 2 spell levels behind where I should be and locking me out of 8th and 9th level spells. I guess it isn't a completely horrible thing seeing as how many of the really good debuff and buff spells are available in levels before that. Not to mention that I wouldn't really get bonus spells of 8 or 9 unless I had an insanely high wisdom score. So I wouldn't really have many 8th or 9th level spells anyhow. It would kinda hurt the ability to use metamagic, but you have rods for that
It is kinda sad to not have things like restoration earlier, but at the same time there is another cleric for that. And missing out on Miracle too.
But at the same time you make up for it by being able to put out some serious damage with your archery
Yeah, it really depends on what you want. If you want to be an archer who supports himself with a bit of spellcasing, stick with ZAM longer. If you want to be a caster who shoots a bow, I honestly would go Fighter or Ranger 1 then cleric for the rest. If you want to be a caster, losing 3 caster levels really, really hurts. On the other hand, if you just want to support yourself, you really don't need that much. (even one level gets you access to wands) And if you want just a few tricks for thematic stuff, there's a lot of cool stuff you can pick up through Qingong
Basically a caster who can support himself. Kinda some tricks too. Main thing is archery, but i want some things that could break the mold of being shooty guy. I feel that quite a few cleric stuff has some potential for out of combat and you can even do some neat things to yourself in combat.
Kinda a gimmick, but i'm not looking for optimization or greatest class ever. Just something fun and different.
What I lose are the 10th level bonus feats, trick shot, ki focus bow, reflexive shot, 2 attacks and 4 BAB.
A pretty high cost. But in return I get channeling (though at a lesser ability to a normal cleric, but still good out of battle), Spell progression -2 levels, aura, and domains. The travel domain looks especially great.
So yeah. It really hurts to do this multiclassing, but it adds in some flavor to the character, adds in some more options, and i feel it opens up for you to be able to do more things out of combat.
Of the things I would miss would be the two extra attacks. However, that really doesn't matter too much. I still have the same amount of attacks that a rogue, ranger, or pure cleric would have. I'd have one less than a paladin though. The final BAB would be while flurrying 14/14/9/3/-1
Compared to the pure cleric's or rogue's 13(x2)/13/8/3
Not only that but you still get that 16 flurry BAB to get one more notch of deadly aim than the rouge, cleric, or ranger.
Not to mention that you still can use that ki point to get one more attack at 14, something those three can't do. Flurry is also better because each attack gets their critical damage multiplied, compared to manyshot only getting one of them multipled.
With spending ki, the zen archer 6/cleric 14 has 4 less BAB than a fighter, the same amount of attacks, and only missing greater weapon specialization and weapon training while having all the other key archery feats. The only difference is that the zen archer can't wear armor, but has ways to make up for that.
I think it matches up somewhat archery wise with a fighter archer, but still far behind the zen archer.
It has better saves than the fighter and can cast 7th level spells, giving the ability to give himself some serious buffs and some situational use outside of combat. Not to mention great saves.
So I think it can pull its weight. It won't be the awesomeness that the zen archer pure is, but still should be interesting and diverse.
If i could convince the person to do ultimate magic archtypes, i could do zen archer 9/empyreal sorcerer 1/ arcane archer 10
19 flurry BAB, one less attack than a zen archer, no 10th bonus feat, no 10th level perfect strike, no ki focus bow or trick shot. only 5th level sorcery, but you do get hail of arrows. arrow of death doesn't seem that useful unless you lower their fortitude saves first. you do get to assign any element or alignment to bypass DR. and you can do a +2 arcane strike.
I'd need to clear it with the GM to allow me to use the archetype in UM
I also second the Wisdom in the Flesh Trait as well as Honoured Fist of the Society (if permitted) for an extra Ki pool point.
I may just stick to zen archer, but i wanted to try something different that would surprise people.
I thought that a zen cleric as an archtype of the cleric in a way that delays spellcasting. Basically i want to be a cleric, but the GM says we have a dedicated cleric. I figure they probably want this person to heal, so a cleric dedicated to other stuff than healing might be useful and fun.
Trying to be creative and develop something that would surprise people in how it works. I hate being relegated to a single task of archer. It meant that I didn't get to play like how i wanted to, so this would be a compromise.
I don't like being told to play a certain thing. But if Zen archer is a lot of fun, i may just stick to that
Zen archer is so good through the low levels, it's hard to drop out of it. If you go 3, you really must go to 4, because ki is too good to just ignore. Then once you're 4, you might as well stick around til 6 for two free feats and 3 attacks per turn. Then go into cleric at 7. This is what I did with mine (though rogue instead of cleric). I tried to get out of ZaM earlier but there's just too much good stuff to get out before 7. At least for me...
It is really tempting. The only thing holding me back from that is that it delays my spellcasting by 4 levels, making me 2 spell levels behind where I should be and locking me out of 8th and 9th level spells. I guess it isn't a completely horrible thing seeing as how many of the really good debuff and buff spells are available in levels before that. Not to mention that I wouldn't really get bonus spells of 8 or 9 unless I had an insanely high wisdom score. So I wouldn't really have many 8th or 9th level spells anyhow. It would kinda hurt the ability to use metamagic, but you have rods for that
It is kinda sad to not have things like restoration earlier, but at the same time there is another cleric for that. And missing out on Miracle too.
But at the same time you make up for it by being able to put out some serious damage with your archery
I actually had this same idea a few months ago even did a thread on it, and just got to start using it in a jade reagent campaign. I chose samsaran for my race taking first level as cleric and then three zen archer with the rest going into cleric. Good luck with it so far it, I'll try to link you my thread later there was a lot of good info in there.
I'd certainly look forward to seeing this other thread. I unfortuantly can't take cleric as first level due to if i do that then I suspect the GM will call foul.
It is a bit tricky, but if i give the right perception that I am an archer and not a cleric then I can get it past him, as I don't have to show my full plan.
That sounds like an interesting build. The first 3 levels of Zen Archer are the most powerful, so that's good dip for an archer character.
For your cleric deity and domain, I think Erastil has bow as a favored weapon, so you might see what domains and feats fit with that. (Channel smite might be one you could look at, too.)
A couple of things you might consider:
The 4th level of Zen Archer gets you the ki pool (+4 AC, +1 arrow in a full attack action, +10? jump check). You might think about picking that up later on.
You can get Improved Precise Shot as a bonus feat at Zen Archer 6 (no pre-requisites), which is probably the fastest way to get it.
I'm not sure if you'll need the Skill Focus on Perception. Assuming you have a high-ish Wisdom for both Zen Archer and Cleric, you might find something more useful for that feat.
If you're allowed to use feats from Ultimate Combat, Clustered Shots is the Holy Grail of archery feats: add up damage from all the shots that hit in a single round before applying damage reduction.
I'd love to see what you finally decide to do. This sounds like a really fun character.
I unfortuantly am not allowed feats from ultimate combat or magic, or else I'd pick up Evangelist for a cleric archtype and get the inspire bravery.
Skill focus perception is mainly there because I really can't see much to use at that level. The other possiblity is dodge, combat reflexes, and quick draw. Quick draw might let me switch to a shield at the end of the turn if I decide to wear armor.
Perception is just really useful. I guess I could also do improved initiative.
If I get that 4th level, it kinda kills the spellcasting and I might as well stick to zen archer then. Not only that, but i'd no longer be able to obtain 9th level spells at 20.
I could grab Erastil, but then I would be forced into positive channeling and my team might look at me like a healer. Of course. I could just refuse to be the healer and still channel positive energy for other uses.
The other reason why I wanted to grab some Zen archer is that he is always considered armed and can respond to a sunder attempt to the bow with an elbow. A normal fighter would have their hands full with the bow and couldn't do an attack of opportunity.
So either my choice is to go for that extra level in Zen archer to grab the pool or to stick to cleric and get the full spellcasting list by the end and keep up somewhat to a normal cleric.
I could swap out rapid shot and many shot for other things. Maybe skill focus peception early on
I was told by my GM that I have to make an archer character. I don't know why that I have this requirement, but I wanted to be in the game so I said sure.
I am only allowed feats from the core rulebook and advanced players guide. I can only use classes from the core rulebook, though I can use archetypes from the advanced. I am also allowed to use anything from the adventurer's armory
Of course, the expectation is to go full fighter or Zen archer. Usually full fighter is expected.
However, I want to try something different that would feel a bit different and open up more diverse option
I don't have the ability rolls yet, I keep on waiting to do it so that way I can know exactly what I can do.
I do have a general idea. I thought that I might want to make an archer cleric, but the thing is that I'm supposed to specialize as an archer, as they said they didn't need a cleric. So sacrificing a bit of cleric usefulness isn't really a big deal to me.
I thought I might take human so that way in case if i get bad rolls I can make up with that with choosing my ability increase and also for that bonus feat and extra skill points.
I plan to play a lawful neutral and base it off of acting the role of the justicar. Not the class, but the duties of one. I would take the lawkeeper aspect though and if i violate it, it requires an atonement in order to keep cleric abilities. He hasn't mastered magic yet, but still takes on the duties. My god is Abadar of course
My plan so far is channel negative energy so that way the other players don't try to force me into the healer role, as the best healing I have learned is to kill your enemies faster. Thus he takes on the role of harming those who have broken laws and have been judged to be sentenced to death.
Zen archer 1: Point blank shot, precise shot, bonus(rapid shot), (free) Improved unarmed combat
Zen archer 2: free(weapon focus) bonus (deflect arrows)
Zen archer 3: Free(point blank master), zen archery, deadly aim
ZA 3/ cleric 1
ZA 3/ Cleric 2: Snatch arrows
ZA 3/ Cleric 3
ZA 3/ cleric 4: Skill focus (perception)
ZA 3/ Cleric 5:
ZA 3/ Cleric 6: Manyshot
I chose deflect arrows and snatch arrows to protect myself from any other ranged characters who target me.
Eventually I want Improved precise shot of course, but I am not sure what to select as my domain. Anything past 9 I haven't decided on, as it takes a long time to get to that point.
I don't exactly expect to do an extremely optimized character, but could the character remain useful with the dip in zen archer? Or is it harmed to the point that it can't really keep up with fellow party members who might be more optimized?
I was wondering if i had a 17th level cleric that had a 16 wisdom and a headband of wisdom that gave +3 wisdom would they be able to cast 9th level spells?
