kekssideoflife's page

kekssideoflife wrote:

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

kekssideoflife wrote:

What makes you think you BECOME the corpse?

I can't even this question right now.

This isn't a game where dead creatures like humanoids or animals whisk away into dust or flash into nothingness after stabbing them with a sword like in Legend of Zelda or whatever PG-13 RPG game you want to insert as an example, so saying that a dead creature doesn't become a corpse when you kill them is absurd.

I would accept that argument for summoned creatures (since they are merely simulacra made via magical energy), probably even extraplanar creatures, just as an example, but those are expressly different both mechanically and in-lore; stabbing a regular human in the face with a regular sword and not expecting them to be dead and consequently turn into a corpse is absurd even for this game where fire-breathing dragons and magic and divine power are an expected norm.

I didn't say that you don't leave a corpse. But you definitely do not become an object. How you missed that is beyond me to be honest.

IF you become an object as you claim, then tell me how Resurrect would work on you RAW? Since it only targets dead creatures.

I didn't miss it, because your argument is basically saying what I expressed prior. And it's simple transitive property rules. Creature becomes corpse, a corpse is an object, therefore, creature becomes object. It's the same logic behind petrification, and it's not much different besides the whole "turn to stone" thing, but that has its own specifics there.

Consequently, dead creature is just a specific type of object. Resurrect wouldn't work if you targeted a mug or a plate because it's not a dead creature, but it would work if you targeted a corpse (or even as you say, a steak, since a steak is just a part of a creature's corpse).

Point is, bringing up the whole "0 HP" thing as a means to cheese a specific rules system doesn't work with the premise that objects have HP too,...

That makes a bit of sense. But then why would the death state state that you are reduced to 0 HP, when you then instantly turn into a corpse object with >0 HP. That feels weird to me.

I am not saying this wouldn't be cheesy or OP or that it should be allowed, I am talking strictly RAW.

"When you die, you are reduced to 0 Hit Points if you had a different amount, and you can’t be brought above 0 Hit Points as long as you remain dead"

You die with more than 0 HP "You don't get reduced to 0 HP", and then the death state reduces you to 0 HP. That's separate from eachother.
Instantly slain
Dies -> Reduced to 0 HP
Becomes a corpse with X HP

kekssideoflife wrote:

What makes you think you BECOME the corpse?

I can't even this question right now.

This isn't a game where dead creatures like humanoids or animals whisk away into dust or flash into nothingness after stabbing them with a sword like in Legend of Zelda or whatever PG-13 RPG game you want to insert as an example, so saying that a dead creature doesn't become a corpse when you kill them is absurd.

I would accept that argument for summoned creatures (since they are merely simulacra made via magical energy), probably even extraplanar creatures, just as an example, but those are expressly different both mechanically and in-lore; stabbing a regular human in the face with a regular sword and not expecting them to be dead and consequently turn into a corpse is absurd even for this game where fire-breathing dragons and magic and divine power are an expected norm.

I didn't say that you don't leave a corpse. But you definitely do not become an object. How you missed that is beyond me to be honest.

IF you become an object as you claim, then tell me how Resurrect would work on you RAW? Since it only targets dead creatures.

ReyalsKanras wrote:

-snip-

Um, yes it does. It says in the spell description that the target is immediately slain. Here's what the rules say about that:

Instant Death wrote:

If an effect states it kills you outright, you die without having to reach dying 4 and without being reduced to 0 Hit Points.

So no Dying 4 and no 0 HP. You're just dead. That's it.

Also, the entire clause there is titled Death Effects and Instant Death, not just Death Effects, meaning it covers both concepts. Favoring the one because it comes first in the entry doesn't really track if it involves rules that it doesn't govern.

If anything, the "HP" clause in the Death rules make no sense, because once you are dead, you cease to be a creature and instead become an object (AKA corpse), meaning your "HP" is adjusted to be that of the durability and hardness of a corpse of your size, which probably isn't much, but also isn't 0 either. Either way, tracking HP of a corpse or defaulting it to 0 makes no sense, especially if it's, say, used to raise undead, which means it just never becomes undead since it remains at 0 HP and is forcibly destroyed by general undead rules. These all fall under the Too Bad to Be True clause, which means that odds are, the concept of "You're at 0 HP as a corpse" is simply false.

Just as well, you're ignoring the TGTBT clause, where a party can "wombo-combo" this regardless of whether the abilities were meant to be balanced around this being possible, which I can assure you, it probably isn't.

What makes you think you BECOME the corpse? How would Ressurect work if you BECAME a corpse (Object)? It only targets dead creatures, which are not objects. Or can I cast ressurect on a steak and get a cow?

ReyalsKanras wrote:

"When you die you are reduced to 0 HP", is also unambiguous. Is there a clear precedent for how the General/Specific rule applies here? It looks like two general rules are being read in such a way that they are in conflict.

The rules for instant death abilities a fairly clearly more specific than the normal rules for dying. I don't see a conflict here.

Where does it say that? It says you die without HAVING TO reach 0 HP. Nowhere does it exclude it. You die. and when you die, you are reduced to 0 HP. It doesn't tell you anything about what happens after you die. That's relegated to the Death rule. Instant Death only cares about how you reach the Death state. The death state then declares that you are reduced to 0 HP.

Alright, after having a few discussions about ithere are a few arguments for both sides.

Self-Destruction is a level 12 feat for the Reanimated Construct ehich allows you to explode it when it reaches 0 HP.

Final Sacrifice however does not reduce you to 0 HP, it immediately slays you, without reaching any dying condition or getting to 0 HP.

Being dead though immediately reduces your HP to 0.

I'd interpet the rules as:
> 50 HP Construct walks towards enemy
> Is being Final Sacrifice'd and dies immediately with 50 HP
> After death, it's HP are reduced to 0 HP
> This triggers the Self-Destruction reaction, since your Reanimated Companion was reduced to 0 HP
> ???
> Boom.