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Is it just our group or does nobody ever take a skill point instead of the hitpoint as their favored class goodie? Certainly all the optimization guides for every class advise to always take the extra hp. Which made me wonder:

How many skill points would it take for you to not take the extra hp? Please specify if this would depend on class or level.

My impression is, that hp are worth most at first level, and decrease in value from there on out. I'd trade my 1st level hp for four skill points, although wouldnt ever trade it for a wizard or a rogue. I could see something like 3 at 2nd, 2 at 3rd and then one for one work. How about you?

There have been several - ultimately inconclusive - attempts on these forums to make sense of the rules that govern the use of the net:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t346?Request-for-FAQErrata-regarding-Net-Feats
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n1zs?All-Tangled-up
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r5ys?Net-rules-are-very-weird-and-unclear

With this post, I would like to present a proposal I made to our GM on how to interpret the rules concerning this weapon in our campaign. It is a close reading of the rules, with suggested rulings stated as affirmative clauses, but only as the basis for discussion. Your comments and criticism would thus be welcome.

Please note that this post deals only with the net, not with the snag net, which is a different weapon.

I. The Net as a Thrown Ranged Weapon

1. Classification
a) The net is an exotic weapon; if you use it without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Net) feat, you suffer a -4 penalty to attack rolls. It is listed in the ranged exotic weapons table and is exclusively a thrown weapon – you cannot use it as a mellee weapon or deliver combat maneuvers with it unless you have the Net Adept feat.

2. Handedness and Two-handed Use
a) The net’s entry in the weapons section doesn’t specify handedness, but the “two weapon fighting > thrown weapons” entry in the combat section of the CRB mentions that “when you throw a weapon from each hand you (...) treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon”. This reading takes precedence over the text in the “Net and Trident” feat, which erroneously states that the net is normally “a two-handed ranged weapon”.
b) Therefore, when thrown, the net can be used one-handed as a non-light weapon, but only in conjunction with another thrown weapon (or an empty hand). You can not use the net as a one-handed thrown weapon while wielding a shield, or a weapon which cannot be thrown.
c) After it has been thrown, one hand is needed to hold the trailing rope if you want to continue to control the net. For as long as you do, you are still wielding it as a one-handed, non-light weapon and take the appropriate penalties if fighting with a second weapon, which may only be a thrown weapon. As above, this still precludes you from using a shield, or a weapon which cannot be thrown.
d) After the net has been thrown and the trailing rope remains in your hand, thrown weapons wielded in your other hand can but do not have to be thrown. You may thus use a dagger, javelin, throwing axe, trident etc. to stab or slash while controlling the net’s trailing rope.
e) Attacking with both the net and another weapon in the same round requires a full round action and thus precludes movement. You may however take a five foot step before, after, or between the two attacks, and thus throw the net at 10 foot range, step 5 feet and attack the target from an adjacent square.
f) If you are only holding on to the trailing rope, you can move and attack normally but still suffer the appropriate two weapon fighting penalty for wielding the net in your off hand. Similarly, you can move and then throw the net, while holding but not using a thrown weapon in your off hand, but will suffer the appropriate two weapon fighting penalty.

2. Net Folding before Use
a) A net must be folded to be thrown effectively. The first time you throw your net in a fight, you make a normal ranged touch attack roll. If you miss, the net is unfolded and you take a –4 penalty on further throwing attempts with it.
b) If you hit, you cannot use the net to attack again for as long as there is an entangled target inside it.
c) It takes 2 rounds for a proficient user to fold a net and twice that long for a non-proficient one to do so. With the Net Adept feat, it takes only one full round action or two move actions to fold a net.

3. Making the Ranged Attack
a) When you throw the net you make a ranged touch attack (BAB + dex-bonus vs. opponents dex-bonus + 10; natural armor, armor, and shields do not count). The net is thus highly effective against heavily armored, low dex opponents – but only when you use it as a thrown weapon. An opponent’s loss of AC may offset even the -4 to hit of an untrained net user or a trained dual-wielder.
b) A net's maximum range is 10 feet – you cannot throw it any further. You can throw the net onto an opponent in an adjacent square (5 ft range) at no penalty. However, making a ranged attack from inside an opponent’s threatened square provokes an AOO.
c) As a thrown weapon, the net does not threaten any squares. It can however be readied with the condition of an enemy coming into range and thus be used to interrupt an enemy’s attack.

II. The Net as a Melee Weapon
1. Classification
a) Only with at least +1 BAB and after you take the Net Adept feat can you use the net as a one-handed melee reach weapon.
b) Using the net as a melee weapon means you attack using BAB + str (rather than dex) bonus and do not draw an AOO when attacking from within an opponent’s threatened square.
c) Using the net as a melee weapon is a regular melee attack, not a touch attack.
d) As a melee weapon, the net has 10-foot reach. To attack an opponent in an adjacent square, you must first take a 5ft step away from him or use the net as a thrown weapon, provoking an AOO as outlined above. Similarly, you may use the net to deliver AOOs on opponents who enter your threatened squares.
e) As a one-handed melee weapon, you can now wield it with any other one-handed weapon in the other hand. However, you may still only throw it while wielding another thrown weapon, as outlined above. The melee net is still not a light weapon, so you suffer the appropriate penalties for attacking with two weapons.
d) When you use the net as a melee weapon, you do not take a penalty for using an unfolded net.
e) Using the net as a melee weapon does not unfold the net.

2. Benefits of the Net and Trident Feat (Requires Two Weapon Fighting Feat)
a) You can treat a net as a one-handed ranged weapon, allowing you to wield any light or one-handed melee weapon (not just thrown ones, as before, or tridents, as the title suggests) and also make ranged or mellee attacks with your net.
b) When you use your light or one-handed melee weapon to attack an entangled opponent, you gain a +2 bonus on damage rolls and on attack rolls to confirm a critical hit.

3. Using the Net to deliver Combat Maneuvers
a) Wielded as a melee weapon, the net can be used to deliver combat maneuvers such as trip or disarm instead of entangling opponents. No feats other than Net Adept are required for this.
b) Using Combat Maneuvers provokes an AOO if you do not have other feats to prevent it, but since you are be doing so from ten feet away, only foes who can attack at reach will be able to attack you at that range.
c) The Net Maneuvering feat lets you use a net to deliver combat maneuvers instead of entangling opponents as though it had the trip and disarm qualifiers. You gain a +2 bonus on trip and disarm checks made to use a net in this way and can drop the net rather than be disarmed or tripped yourself. Further, if you have an opponent entangled in your net, you can attempt to drag or reposition that opponent as long as he is within your net’s reach and you control the trailing rope of your net.
d) The Net Trickery feat allows you to use your net to attempt a dirty trick combat maneuver to blind an opponent instead of entangling opponents. Also, if you have an opponent entangled in your net, you can attempt to trip that opponent as long as he is within your net’s reach or you control the trailing rope on your net. You also gain a +2 bonus on drag and reposition combat maneuver checks you make using your net.

III. Effects on Target

1. Entanglement
a) If you hit, the net entangles the target but deals no damage. This precludes it from delivering sneak attack bonus damage.
b) An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty on dexterity. The condition thus reduces the opponents AC, CMD and CMB by two.
c) An entangled creature can only move at only half speed, and cannot charge or run. These restrictions take effect as soon as the creature is hit and can thus be used to break up a charge.
d) If the entangled creature attempts to cast a spell, it must make a concentration check with a DC of 15 + the spell's level (17 with a snag net) or be unable to cast the spell.
e) If you control (hold on to) the net’s trailing rope, the entangled creature can move only within the 10 foot limit that the rope allows unless it beats you in an opposed Strength check. If you lose, you drop or break the rope and are thus no longer wielding or controling the net, turning it into an inanimate object. The creature is however still entangled by the web.
f) You cannot pull the entangled creature by pulling on the trailing rope, or use the net to deliver combat maneuvers such as move or trip unless you have the Net Adept Feat and can use it as a mellee weapon. You can however use other weapons or your hands to do so, either letting go of the net or dual-wielding the weapon in your other hand at the appropriate penalty.

2. Breaking Free
a) An entangled creature can escape with a DC 20 Escape Artist check or burst it with a DC 25 Strength check; both full-round actions that provoke AOOs.
b) The net cannot be attacked with a weapon by the creature caught in it while the trailing rope is being held. Attacks on the creature inside the net do not damage the net.

3. Attacking the Net
a) The net can be attacked from the outside, but this requires a cutting weapon. Attacking the net does not damage the creature entangled in it.
b)If the net is still being held, attacking the net is a Sunder Combat Maneuver that provokes an AOO.
c) If the net’s trailing rope is not being held, it can be attacked freely from within or outside as an inanimate object. Attacks are against AC 5 (10 base, -5 for 0 dex). Creatures caught in the net still suffer the effects of entanglement, even when the rope is not being held.
d) The net has 5 hit points and 0 hardness; add 10 hp and 2 hardness for every level of +1 enchantment. Damaged nets gain the broken condition but can continue to be used at -2 to hit. Destroying the net ends the entanglement; a destroyed net cannot be used again.

IV. Repairing Broken Nets
a) Damaged nets can be repaired with an application of the appropriate craft skill. The net as an exotic weapon is rated at DC 18. You may “Take 20” on this roll. Repairing the net costs “one fifth of the original price”, 4gp in materials.
b) The mending cantrip/orison restores 1d4 hp to the net and removes the broken condition if the net has at least 3 hp after the spell is cast.

WARNING: Long post, and extreme rules-lawyering ahead.

Also: Spoilers for the Kingmaker AP, which contains a certain encounter which triggered all of this.

Read on at your own peril; comments on how to interpret the Energy Draining and Negative Level rules MOST welcome.

Background: We are currently playing the Kingmaker AP via MapTool, have just finished the first module and came up against a Cairn Wight in a barrow mound from part two. My character (Quortan, a level 3 half-orc barbarian) fought and eventually slew the wight, but was hit and energy-drained in the process. When we looked up the consequences of this, we found out that - working from 2nd edition DnD assumptions - we'd been doing it all wrong: Our GM gave my character a save every time he was hit to avoid the effects of the energy-drain. He was hit four times, but only failed one DC 18 FORT save, and has thus incurred the dreaded "temporary negative level", which may or may not turn permanent.

Because we were unsure of what this means and entails, I promised to "look into the rules" and came up with the following treatise:

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Energy draining and its consequences are described twice in the PF rule books: Once in the Core Rule Book (Appendix 1: Special Abilities, p. 562) and once in the Bestiary (Appendix 3: Glossary, Universal Monster Rules, p. 299f). There are contradictions between these two sources that cause some trouble. Since it was a monster that caused the energy drain, let’s start with the Bestiary. The explanation there is straightforward:

“Energy Drain (Su) This attack saps a living opponent’s vital energy and happens automatically when a melee or ranged attack hits.”

Note that “happens automatically” means you do NOT get a saving throw (as you would if the effect was brought on by a spell) – this has been explicitly clarified by one of the PF designers on the Paizo forums.

The Bestiary entry goes on: “Each successful energy drain bestows one or more negative levels (the creature’s description specifies how many).” We were facing a Cairn Wight (CR 4), which is “an advanced wight that fights with a weapon (...) that channels its energy drain attack and affects creatures damaged by the weapon as if they had been struck by the wight’s slam attack.” (p. 267) The slam attack is specified for a standard Wight as: “Melee: slam +4 (1d4+1 plus energy drain), Special Attacks: create spawn, energy drain (1 level, DC 14)”; in our case, a Cairn Wight, the DC was 18, IIRC.

This means that, by the rules, the Cairn Wight should have drained energy every time it hit, with no save. To make matters worse, the Bestiary then states that “if an attack that includes an energy drain scores a critical hit, it bestows twice the listed number of negative levels.”

In our case, Quortan was hit at least four times, and I think one of those may have been a critical hit (unconfirmed), which would have bestowed more negative levels than his total of three, thus killing him, and making him rise as the Wight’s spawn. Then again, we probably wouldn’t have fought on once we found out that each hit drained energy without a save. Either way, Bee {our GM} ruled that, after failing one save, Quortan had his energy drained and had one negative level bestowed upon him, so let’s continue from there. The Bestiary says that:

“Negative levels remain until 24 hours have passed or until they are removed with a spell, such as restoration. If a negative level is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 draining creature’s racial HD + draining creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level becomes permanent. A separate saving throw is required for each negative level.”

In our case, we do not have access to Restoration (fourth level cleric or paladin spell), so 24 hours after the attack occurred, Quortan will have to succeed on a FORT save, likely DC 18. Since we know at what time the save is coming on, we should be able to pull a few tricks to improve Quortan’s chances here, i.e. let him use items that boost saves (if any), cast Bear’s Endurance for a +4 to CON, the Guidance orison (or the Resistance cantrip, which Thad {our party's mage}, sadly, doesn’t have) for a +1 to saves, or possibly (?) even Protection from Evil for a +2 to saves from this (delayed) “effect created by evil creatures”. Also, doesn’t Camigwen {our party's halfling oracle} have some halfling- or oracle-ability that lets her companions re-roll a save?

At any rate, should Quortan still fail his save, the negative level becomes permanent. To understand what a “permanent negative level” actually is, we need to turn to the Core Rule Book, as the Bestiary entry ends here. And it is there (p. 334) that we learn that “permanent” doesn’t really mean permanent:

“Restoration (Conjuration (healing); Level cleric 4, paladin 4)
Components V, S, M (diamond dust worth 100 gp or 1,000 gp, see text)
This spell functions like lesser restoration, except that it also dispels temporary negative levels or one permanent negative level. If this spell is used to dispel a permanent negative level, it has a material component of diamond dust worth 1,000 gp. This spell cannot be used to dispel more than one permanent negative level possessed by a target in a 1-week period.”

In short, the only difference between removing “temporary” vs. “permanent” negative levels is 900 GP, and a one week downtime per permanent negative level after the first. Of course this still means we have to find an appropriate cleric and pay him a chunk of money, but at least we have this option, if not now, then sometime in the future.

Before we continue, let’s take a step back and think about what the designers may have intended with these rules, and how they play out in practice. For one thing, level-draining undead are still scary, but not in that fatalistic save-or-suck way of 1st and 2nd edition: The main danger is that now, a few hits will – regardless of damage or saving-throws – kill a character and turn him into an (unresurrectable) undead spawn. Cool, and flavorful. However, if you realize what you are up against, you can just turn and run, hope you make the save(s) and shake off the “temporary” negative level, or, eventually, pay 900 GP and get your “permanent” lost level back. It’s more like a lingering curse than an irrevocable punishment. By removing the save while softening the conditions that allow you to get a “lost” level back, the designers made the monster more scary in the short term, but less devastating in the long run.

So far, so good: I quite like this and would be OK if we applied these rules going forward. The problem is that the Core Rule Book’s definition of energy draining casts doubt on whether the above interpretation is correct, and makes a general mess of things by tieing it up with the effects of the Energy Drain, Raise Dead and Restoration spells. It states (on p. 562):

“Some spells and a number of undead creatures have the ability to drain away life and energy; this dreadful attack results in ‘negative levels’ (...) A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels.”

This contradicts the Bestiary and gives the impression that temporary negative level(s) continue to stay temporary until you eventually succeed on one of your daily saves; in our case a FORT DC 18, as specified in the Cairn Wight entry. They never turn permanent.

Note that the Core Rule Book’s distinction between “temporary” negative levels, as opposed to “permanent level drain”, is not made in the Bestiary, which just refers to “negative levels” in general. The Core Rule Book then goes on to define “permanent level drain” as follows:

“Some abilities and spells (such as raise dead) bestow permanent level drain on a creature. These are treated just like temporary negative levels, but they do not allow a new save each day to remove them.
Level drain can be removed through spells like restoration. Permanent negative levels remain after a dead creature is restored to life. A creature whose permanent negative levels equal its Hit Dice cannot be brought back to life through spells like raise dead and resurrection without also receiving a restoration spell, cast the round after it is restored to life.”

I’m still not sure what to make of this. At the one extreme, one might argue that the Core Rule Book superseeds the Bestiary: All “temporary” negative levels are truly temporary – you eventually shake them off by making your daily save, or expedite the process by casting Restoration. The only truly permanent negative levels are those brought on by the Raise Dead spell, and they are only “permanent” in that you don’t have a chance to shake them off naturally; you MUST cast Restoration to accomplish this (which, if you have access to Raise Dead, is a minor inconvenience only – go figure).

This rather cheapens the innate abilities of level-draining undead, turning them into an acute danger (getting killed by level-drain) but little more than an annoyance long term (you eventually make all your daily saves), but it is an interpretation that is somewhat supported by the definition of the spell Energy Drain (p. 277):

“Energy Drain (School necromancy; Level cleric 9, sorcerer/wizard 9)
Saving Throw Fortitude partial; see text for enervation
This spell functions like enervation (4th level sorcerer/wizard spell: “You point your finger and fire a black ray of negative energy that suppresses the life force of any living creature it strikes. You must make a ranged touch attack to hit”), except that the creature struck gains 2d4 temporary negative levels. Twenty-four hours after gaining them, the subject must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC = energy drain spell’s save DC) for each negative level. If the save succeeds, that negative level is removed. If it fails, that negative level becomes permanent.”

If you compare the abilities of a lowly CR 3 or 4 wight to those of a cleric, sorcerer or wizard capable of casting this 9th (!) level spell, you might conclude that the intended main effect is – in both cases – to kill low to mid level/HD opponents by level drain rather than brute damage. For high-level/HD opponents, the spell is superior to the innate ability in that, after 24 hours, it explicitly only grants ONE “natural” save per level drained rather than the daily saves mentioned for ability-based level drain in the appendix.

At the other extreme, it has been argued on the Paizo forums that the “daily saves” reference for temporary negative levels merely means that you roll at an interval of one lost level per day, giving you a one-time-per-day “natural” chance to shake off a negative level, regardless of whether this was caused by an innate ability or a spell. This would extend the period of time a character suffers the acute effects of lost levels (unless you have access to Restoration) and every time you fail, the lost level becomes “permanent” ... but his still only means you have to pay more to get it back.

My opinion is that either of these extreme interpretations is dubious, and that the intended effect as well as the “most fun” solution is to go with the Bestiary definition, ignoring the uncertainty the Core Rule Book introduces.

I suspect that the root cause of the contradiction between the Core Rule Book and the Bestiary is a simple editing oversight: The Core Rulebook contains all the game’s spells, and the special abilities appendix from which the passage above stems, was written with those spells in mind – those that induce energy drain, and those that try to remedy it. The writer probably included the reference to the special undead ability without knowing how the Bestiary writer, who either worked later or in parallel, was going to resolve it.

Thus, to sum it all up, I propose that we go with the Bestiary definition and 1) accept that we made a mistake in rolling immediate saves where none were allowed, and resolve to use the rules above correctly going forward and 2) let Quortan roll his save for the one negative level he incurred, and have that negative level become “permanent” (to be remedied by Restoration once we get access to it) if he fails.

Hello,

Could someone please spell out the rules for mounted movement for me? Essentially, I am unsure about what part of his turn a character on horseback has to spend to make the mount move and how the riding skill plays into this.

Please adjucate the following cases, assuming a character with riding skill and a standard horse, move 50.

A. The character is mounted, it is his turn. What part of his action per turn (standard, move, minor) does he have to expend to make the horse move 50, 100, 150 and 200 (x4 for running) respectively? Inversely, what part of his action does he have left over after making it move 50, 100, 150 or 200?

B. Does spurring the mount (DC 10, 1d3 damage to the mount) increase the total speed or the base speed of the creature by 10’?

C. The character is standing next to his mount. What part of his action per turn does he have to expend to get on the mount and how far can he make it move on this turn after he is in the saddle? In particular, can he make the mount run (x4 movement) immediately? Also, how does the DC20 “fast mount” action affect this sequence?

D. If the character has to move to get next to the mount, can he still make the mount move if he does or doesn't succeed on the fast mount riding skill check? If so, how far can the horse ride?

E. Assuming a character rides up to a target, how far can the mount move and still leave the rider with a standard action to make his attack?

F. What happens if a character is incapacitated (i.e. stunned or dying) while riding? Can the mount keep moving even if the rider does not have actions to spend on riding?

Thanks for your help.

Hey guys,

just thought I'd share a link to my new homebrew campaign setting over on Obsidian Portal. It's an E6 outlaw setting called "Wolf's Head". The game is scheduled to start at the end of August.

I've made quite a few changes (simplifications, mostly) to races, classes, skills, feats and spells so if you are into that sort of thing, you might want to take a look at the wiki-section. Most notably, the game has just four classes (tweaked druids, fighters, rogues and sorcerers) and is elves-only. I've also pared the skill-system back to 18 skills. The object was to keep things moving more quickly.

I'd welcome questions and comments.

http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/wolfshead/wikis/main-page

So here's a design-challenge: Create a sandbox-type adventuring environment using just Beginner Box content. Small-scale, self-contained - a Pathfinder E5 West Marches, if you will.

Anybody interested? Anybody willing to organize this as a collaborative sort of thing over the web, maybe?

How do you handle the use of the spell "gaseous form" in your games? According to the spell description …

“The subject and all its gear become insubstantial, misty, and translucent. (…) A gaseous creature can't run, but it can fly at a speed of 10 feet and automatically succeeds on all fly skill checks. It can pass through small holes or narrow openings, even mere cracks, with all it was wearing or holding in its hands, as long as the spell persists.”

How do you envision a human turned gaseous would appear? Can you still identify the outline as human (especially after he squeezed through "mere cracks")? Could he take the shape of the smoke of a fire? Could dogs still smell him?

In particular, how would you assess the difficulty for others spotting a gaseous creature given different lighting conditions (say, bright daylight, a torch-lit dungeon and at night)?

Lstly, do you let a character’s stealth skill affect their ability to move, sneak and hide while gaseous? And how about being invisible while gaseous – that would render you nearly undetectable, would it not?

I am aware this question has been asked here twice before but afaik it has never been answered satisfactorily.

The situation does come up a lot in our group, as two characters have access to this spell and use it a lot to scout out entire dungeons - not sure whether this is RAI or an exploit.