itaitai's page

itaitai wrote:

I just think in Myth Speakers they went a bit overboard.

Fair. But this goes back to "not every AP will be suitable for every group."

itaitai wrote:

Like the example i gave with the hind chase scene. That chase didn't add anything to the story like in chapter one.

It adds two things:

1) An additional way to find the (hidden) cave in location E6 (not spoiling the details). This is in line with the Three Clue Rule to provide three ways for the PCs to bypass or overcome a possible plot failure point.
2) More flavor based on Greek myth. "In Greek mythology, the Golden Hind refers to the Ceryneian Hind, a female deer sacred to the goddess Artemis. It was known for its golden antlers, bronze hooves, and incredible speed, capable of outrunning an arrow. The Ceryneian Hind plays a prominent role in Heracles's Twelve Labors, where he was tasked with capturing it."

Fair enough. It fits the mythology theme of capturing the hind.

I'm not saying the whole capturing it doesn't fit the story, just the usage of the boring chase.

I want to touch on some of the things mentioned in the above post.

The first thing I would like to say is that while the story beats of an AP can be linear, how you get there is not. Different groups will have different experiences in the same AP, even if they are the same players, based on how they approach the challenges the AP gives. IMO, APs are not linear in the same way, say, a novel is.

Influence can be clunky, I will agree. I do want to say, first of all, that it is certainly better than having an all-or-nothing Charisma roll for a party face. The Discover mechanic, IMO, is meant to help people who may be stuck on what to role have an IC reason to roll a skill. Most of the time, however, if you pay attention to who the NPCs is, and what their goals may be, a player can figure out good skills to roll for the Influence part, and just skip Discover entirely.

Is the NPC a cheerful actor: Performance, Acting Lore, Theater Lore would be skills that would likely work without Discover.

It is a shady fence: Thievery, (Location) Lore, Underworld Lore.

Research tends to be pretty easy, though if anything, it's the most likely to drag if you have players who are not into Lore. Most Research scenes will just be rolls until you hit the target number, and progress will tend to be Lore. My group loves Lore, so they are good for us, but YMMV.

Infiltration is awesome, and certainly not at all a drag on the GM. I've used it a lot. Much like with influence, rather than have one person roll once or twice, in an all-or-nothing roll and instead it turns it into a real scene where everyone gets to take part.

Opportunities let the GM reward players by adding in elements of back stories, giving them items from wishlists, or tying things into parts of the story that they have engaged with. Obstacles allow for group creativity.

An example could be a guard post. Instead of just 'Rogue, roll Stealth', the GM gets to say "How do you want to get past it?", and let the party come up with...

These are very good points and i agree with them. Especially the one about how every group is different and will enjoy different aspects of the game.

My group tends to like more "freedom" and find subsystems, and influence in particular very restricting.
What i will do with Myth Speaker is tell them what is going to happen and try to keep as much of the system behind the scenes. They really hare metagaming and hints about what their character should do in order to progress more easily.
So this time i will not tell them what skills are easier, unless it's very obvious (like using athletics to climb or nature to sooth and animal) and let them roll with it. If they want, they can recall knowledge to get more info (kinda like discovery action).

I just think in Myth Speakers they went a bit overboard. Like the example i gave with the hind chase scene. That chase didn't add anything to the story like in chapter one.

As long as folks are giving feedback on the use of subsystems in Adventure Paths... I'd love to hear about more recent examples. Once we published the 2nd edition of GameMastery Guide (remastered into GM Core), we've tried hard to make sure the subsystems we use in adventures either come directly from GM Core, or are built on those bones (typically atop the Victory Points mechanic) so that GMs and players are, in theory, as familiar with those rules as they should be fore things like combat.

I suspect that the fact that these rules ended up in the GM book and not the Player book is part of why some players aren't as familiar with these rules (either because they avoid looking in the GM book, or because the GM tells them to do that).

With recent Adventure Path Player's Guides, I've been trying to have us include a "Subsystems" section that tells the players what GM Core subsystems play roles in the Adventure Path they're about to go on, and thus should check out the rules for in advance.

Things like the caravan rules from Jade Regent were created in a different time, where we didn't have the existing structure of subsystems like this in play, and as we looked at building new adventures that were more than just "fight monsters take stuff" at their core, we DID get more experimental with those systems. Sometimes they worked great. Sometimes they did not. Even in the early days of 2nd edition, before we had the rules for 2E subsystems in place to really work with, early Adventure Paths struggled a little bit (including the remastering of Kingmaker—but that one's kingdom rules also suffered as a result of the deadly combo of employee resource shortages and the pandemic throwing everything into chaos)... but for the past few years I feel like we've been doing a much better job at leaning in to and relying upon the GM Core subsystems.

If the use of those (research, influence, chases, infiltrations, etc.) are still pain points... I'd love to hear about why they are, ESPECIALLY if they're still pain points...

Here is my criticism about subsystems.

That being said, i still have a slight issue with them. In order to run a chase scene, the players need to know the rules of the system. That means that when they reach an obstacle they have the freedom to roll the skills that are best suited and written for it or be creative (which i prefer).
The problem is have with it is that we have to "pause" to game to refresh the rules and instead of playing the game, we play a game within a game.
I do try to hide the system the best i can, but they players still need to know the rules, or the system won't work. So it still feels rather disjointed, where the player feel they need to follow a certain set of rules or they won't be able to proceed.
This is especially true in APs where the players already know everything is prewritten and they follow a, mostly, linear path.

The biggest system i have a problem with is the influence system. This system puts conversation roleplaying on a rail.
It really hinders creativity if you play by the rules. Giving turns in a conversation to discover and then tell players what is the best thing they can say to influence a specific individual doesn't feel right.
This is especially true when the players know they have to "gather points" in order to get information or make the NPC do something.
I tried it a few times as a GM and recently experienced it as a player in Blood Lords (field of maidens) and it's not fun. It feels like you have to act in a certain way to get the plot moving again.

Research subsystem is nice. Here it makes sense. You read, you explore, you speak with people and you gain more and more information. Simple way to track what you know.

With infiltration i have no experience, but it seems convoluted with the obstacles and opportunities, which again makes running it a drag for a GM.

Victory points are varied. These i like because it helps me to easily monitor an outcome and they are easily hidden from the players and narrated. The players don't need to know you keep score on them.
From AP's i would advise not to make them too convoluted, like "if you fail this you get -2 to the next 2 turns if you carry 5 bulks or more". Tracking these type of stuff for each player is not fun for a GM in my opinion.

As a whole, i have no major issue with subsystems (except influence which i never plan on running again), but they do need to be used in moderation. In Myth Speaker they are being used to the absolute extreme.

To sum it up, i think they are fine when used in moderation, in appropriate spots where you wish to narrate a scene more easily and when you keep them simple. The more convoluted you are making them, the less creativity will come from the players.

I would suggest maybe doing some survey if people like them and which they like best to see in APs.

Hello everyone

I would like to put something up for discussion and maybe get a Paizo representative tell me his point of view on the matter.

First, i'll say that me and my group play APs exclusively and we love them. We use foundry VTT and the quality and ease of play are amazing.

However, i have noticed in the last APs i read (haven't read all of them) that they are packed with the subsystems (chases, victory points etc.)

In the first Myth Speaker adventure, there are 5 chases, a few victory points games and more. The book is absolutely packed with them.
It got me wondering if this is maybe too much and if the general player base actually enjoy them.

From out experience, every time we enter one of these subsystems, the immersion that was built in the game tends to break. We are being taken out of the fantasy world and brought into an arcade where you score points.
They also became more convoluted over time. Instead of the GM being in the game, he is tasked with keeping track of points and stuff like this:

"Failure You barely control the boat. The fisher takes a –1
penalty to their next check to Gather Fish during this run.
Increase the DC of subsequent checks to Sail by 1 for the
rest of this run."

I know you can change everything in the game to suit your needs, but if i already paid for something, i would like to make the most use out of it.
And because so much of the book real-estate is used for these subsystems i feel like i'm left with much less story, world, NPCs and fun encounter and exploration in the book.

I might be a minority here, but i am really curious if most players that use APs enjoy these so much that so many are needed in a single adventure.

I encountered the same issues.
The concept of a season per chapter is cool concept that doesn't translate well to the table.

There is A LOT of downtime with sporadic events every week or so.
We just played it event to event and pretty much handwaved the passage of time by throwing skill checks, like earn income, quickly.

The problem is that you don't really feel the passage of time when a month can go by and all you did, in some cases, is throw 3 skills checks.

I really couldn't find a better solution, because roleplaying each day is tedious.

As for winter, there are already a lot of events, yet the problem remains that there is way way too much downtime.
I suggest you just tell your players how this is going to be played out - you will face events during the winter, and we will quickly pass the time between them.
You can emphasize how the town struggles each week. Maybe the storm got worse, maybe some people lack some food, maybe a house broke down.
Just random events your players don't really need to take part it.

itaitai wrote:

Hey!

I was reading the 3rd adventure and i could use some help clearing up something regarding the governer's mindscape.

It mentions that it's his own mindscape with it's own townfolf. Kinda like a weird replica of our mindscape.
It is said the people there don't recognize us, but if the PCs are also residents of Willowshore, shouldn't they also be represented there? so when the PCs enter, they see a clone of themselves?

Is there a logical in-game explanation to give my players (that will surely be intrigued by it)?

First of all, please remember that this Adventure Path is particularly filled with plot twists and surprises, so try to include "Spoiler" in titles or use the spoiler tag when talking about these so that the surprises aren't accidentally revealed. That said...

** spoiler omitted **

Sorry about the spoiler, wasn't my intention.

ALL that said, though...

If the backstory of those events is too complicated, or you fear it'll confuse or distract the PCs too much... the simplest solution is to:

** spoiler omitted **

Thanks a lot for the response!

This is actually what i thought about doing with a little twist.
Maybe the PCs wake up next to a corpse of another NPC abductee that was killed in the clearing by the noppera-bos, only to be saved at the last second by Ugly-Cute.
This sets the scene pretty nicely for encouraging the PCs.
They could also see the spider's tracks at the clearing and compare them to the ones at the shrine, making them believe that maybe he did the killing, only to find out later he was the rescuer.

Ron Lundeen wrote:

Uchuujin wrote:

The sidebar on page 7 states "Throughout the Strength of Thousands Adventure Path, the heroes gain XP not from winning fights, but from solving mysteries, aiding others, or even just making friends."

Does this mean that combats should have no XP award? Or rather that there are many ways to gain XP in addition to combat?

You get XP for winning fights, just like in any Pathfinder game. But you'll get a lot of your XP for doing things other than winning fights, and you'll find that sometimes you get more XP for solving a conflict in a way that doesn't involve clobbering your enemy.

thats great, but in future if you're going to continue this (which I hope you do), maybe don't say "PCs gain XP not from fights, ..." because that makes it sound like fights don't grant XP at all.

I thought the same thing, it is rather confusing choice of words.

itaitai wrote:

xNellynelx wrote:

itaitai wrote:

Fumarole wrote:

Perhaps there is another adventuring party in town and the dwarves pit them against each other to see who is the best in town?

Nice idea, but the issue remains the same - the PCs are being tested if the are worthy enough to help the dwarfs.

I think my main problem with this situation is the PCs land in a new place where they are basically being told "we need you help, but we will only accept it and give you more information if you are worthy"

I can just see my players going "well, good luck then" and walk away, because they didn't come to this unknown place to help the dwarfs, they came seeking the Scarlet Triad.
They have no way of knowing the two are connected.

I didn't really have this issue with my players.

As you mentioned, they came in search of the Scarlet Triad. The know the ST are somewhere in the area, and the Regents admit that Kovlar has some problems as of late (Kelda says "you may bve able to aid us, but before we can trust you blah blah)".

So my party put 2 and 2 together saying that the ST might be the ones behind those problems. And operating within the city with the regents blessing, resources, and information would be alot easier than operating with out it. Especially when the next closest city is literally dead.

Totally agree with you, i just need a way to emphasise this because the heroes my players are currently playing aren't lawful and are all neutral.

Maybe i'll have the guard escorting them give a few tips on what will happen and how due to recent events the Court is suspicious of everyone, but if they make a good impression it can be mutually beneficial.

Something along the lines of "I don't know if this group your after are here in Kovlar, but I know we've had our own fair share of problems lately. Could be related? The Regants can tell you more, but opening up to outsiders about internal problems is a touchy subject. Show that you can be...

Awesome!

Perhaps there is another adventuring party in town and the dwarves pit them against each other to see who is the best in town?

Nice idea, but the issue remains the same - the PCs are being tested if the are worthy enough to help the dwarfs.

I think my main problem with this situation is the PCs land in a new place where they are basically being told "we need you help, but we will only accept it and give you more information if you are worthy"

I can just see my players going "well, good luck then" and walk away, because they didn't come to this unknown place to help the dwarfs, they came seeking the Scarlet Triad.
They have no way of knowing the two are connected.

A player recently left the group and I am GMing for 3 players now and it's been going great.
Don't worry about the rest of the adventure as a whole, encounters are easily adjustable.

First of all, i suggest giving it the weak adjustment. If it turns out they handled it better than expected you can always bump it's HP retroactively just to make it a more memorable fight.

Then you have Renalli, she can always jump in and help even if they don't find her at first.
The PCs are her ticket out of their, so it makes sense to help them.

Question in the last fight with the Skull of Dahak. It shoots two eye beams. The attack modifier is +20, but it takes MAP so the attack routine is +20, +15 right? I'm assuming this because all the other hazards in the core rulebook have an extra line saying "doesn't take multiple attack penalty" but the Skull of Dahak doesn't.

Edit: Another question regarding the chains binding Kyrion. Are the chains HP 40 Hardness 10 per chain, or is the HP 40 for all 6 chains combined? If the PCs need to go through 240 HP Hardness 10's worth of chains, it seems easier to just destroy the Skull hazard.

I would assume it takes a penalty. The fight is rather brutal so it makes sense even if it isn't RAW.

I have a question about the new animal trainer archtype.
Insistent command makes every success a critical when using command animal.
However, there is no critical success with command animal.
It is a place holder for future content?

I want to discuss a point that has been flying around in my mind after reading Cult of Cinders.

In p. 23, during the Event 7 The Storyteller's Circle, Nketiah starts telling the story of the Great Darkness and how it was defeated by the Ekujae millennia ago, but it does not state in what language she does this.

During the previous events, it is pointed out here and there that most Ekujae elves have trouble communicating with the characters unless they understand Elven or have some sort of magical way to understand foreign languages without prior study.

I'm guessing Nketiah tells the story in Elven, or the rest of the Leopard Clan would be clueless and then the scene wouldn't take place as it is described. Yet there may be no character who speaks or understands that language—luckily, that is not my case, since I've got an elf in the group, as well as a human rogue who tries to impress her by learning her language and some magic—,but this makes me wonder how others have jumped this hurdle.

I thought about this as well and how it doesn't make sense for her to common in front of the entire clan, while on the other hand it doesn't make sense to just read the paragraph as written if she speak elven or mwangi.

I think i will simply describe how Nketiah calls for an elf to act as translator for the sake of the players.

My players are about to reach the Dahak hazard in the waystation tunnel and i would appreciate some advice regarding the knowledge checks.
When my players will encounter it, their first thought won't be that this is a hazard, they will think this is a type of monster needed to be defeated the old fashioned way.

I'm worried they will get obliterated by the insane AOE damage by not realizing it basically has a skill check off switch.

After the first religion knowledge check they know its a depiction of Dahak, but they still don't know it is a hazard.
Beside straight up telling them what they need to do, i don't see how they can handle this by themselves.

How do you let your players know what they are dealing with without just straight out telling them, and how do they find out how to turn it off?
I would have let them scratch their heads for a bit and do some knowledge checks in any other case, but after they will see me pick up 6d6, i don't think they will stick around for long to study it.

So my players reached the risen skeletons in the catacombs last session and i've noticed that the skeletal hellknight doesn't have the usual resistances every skeleton has.
Is this intended?

Also, while we are on the skeleton subject, if i give my skeletons the explosive death, what is the DC for the basic reflex save? it isn't written anywhere.

Are there any other "heroes" at the town meeting? Do they all just run off when the building catches on fire? If the whole town is built around hiring adventurers, there should be some other groups that show up, I imagine.

It could be kind of fun to present a red herring adventure that the players might think is intended for them, but have the council decide on hiring a more experienced group instead. The other adventurers go off to the tavern to celebrate, Warble then presents her case, and the fire happens.

I actually think it can make sense there aren't any other "groups". Essentially if your players meet each other for the first time, those are your different groups.