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The press release announcing Undefeated's cancellation also says: "We worked hard to find alternative means to keep these titles viable, including moving them to other companies," says Lisa Stevens, co-owner and CEO of Paizo Publishing. "However, our efforts ultimately met with no success. We felt that it was time to fold our hand and let our customers know the final outcome." Can you say to what publishers you tried to move them to?
Damn. It was a good magazine. Really sorry to see it go. Take care. -- g_z
Heh, I'm checking back every five or six days now... Any more news, Mr. Wertz?
Any word for 2006? *fingers still crossed* *cramping up*
*sigh* Well, it's 11/01/05. In case anyone from Paizo is still checking up on the Undefeated boards, a couple more ideas: 1) Play down the hype on new stuff. Wizard Magazine and IQ Gamer (this is not a bash) are primarly "Preview Machines." They seem to make their money by playing up anticipation. What I enjoyed most about UNDEFEATED was the strategy. You guys really dug in, tore things apart to see how the worked. You also provided articles on "Behind the Scenes" and history of certain games. Loved that. Everybody else hypes up their previews. Scrye, Wizard/IQ Gamer, and -- apparently -- Beckett's new "HEROES AND VILLAINS." (From what I've heard. I haven't found the mag yet.) 2) Combine at least some aspects of AMAZING STORIES and UNDEFEATED in to one magazine. Reasoning: I'm a fan of comics in general, and superhero fantasy in particular. Serious, detailed articles on, say, the history of a particular character (publishing history, not just a view through the lense of current "continuity," pointing out significant storylines, etc.) that then segue into a review article of the HC design, then into a team-build strategy article would be cool. Just as an example. Plus, there are more and more superhero games coming out that need critical reviewing. :) Or, interviews with game designers. Or interviews with comics writers or artists, or other. Just some ideas. :)
Good to hear. Um, will remaining subscription issues still be honored in 2006? (I can't remember how many issues I even have remaining on my subscription now. But it would be great to get one in my box in 2006...)
Well, it's August 30th. Most of the Big/Huge Cons are over with. Here I am to prod: Any new info? :)
No plans to make any announcement yet. We are neither go, nor are we cancelled. As soon as we have a finalized plan, we'll let folks know as much as possible pretty much right away. -- Vic. "Right away" is taking for-EVER! ;) Well, it's July 28th. Any hints?
Why July 7? -Vic. Ah, WizKids has been a litle mysterious about an announcement they plan to make on July 7th concerning their lines. I was just seeing if there might be any connection between their "major announcement", and Paizo's restructuring of UNDEFEATED, and my own hopes of Paizo doing an honest-to-gosh rulebook for HeroClix. (I was really reaching. :P )
Any plans to make an announcement around, say, July 7th? (Just curious....)
I hope that it is a good sign. But, I hope you're not getting hit with too much micromanagement. (Too many cooks spoil the broth, as the saying goes....)
It's June 1st. How's "negotiations?" Any official updates?
*sigh* It's May 5th. Any good news?
Wulp, it's Wednesday, 20th of April, 2005. Undefeated is still on hiatus. *sigh* Anyway, to pound away at my desire for a "magazine-sized HeroClix rulebook" I'd like to post a link to a "sample page" a guy named SuperGENE is doing up for his own on-line rulebook. SuperGENE’s Barrier Sample:
It's cool stuff. It's actually pretty consistent with the in-depth stuff Undefeated has done. PLENTY of examples, detailed explanations. This is what I want to see from a consolidated rulebook/PAC with integrated FAQ info. And I hope Undefeated makes it back soon.
It's April 6th. Any news?
I've heard actual, off-line rumors about a Marvel superhero game that sounds like RISK, to an extent. Apparently, player EACH play a villain and a hero. You try to conquer the world with your villain while attempting to disrupt your opponent's attempts to do the same. Has Undefeated published anything on this and I keep skipping over it? Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Any internet sites out there for game, if it exists?
Thanks for the personal anecdote about the game.
Thanks, again. :)
"Doing surprisingly well in non-hobby stores"?! Really? I admit, when I first heard about the mag, I had to pester the store owner of the venue I frequent the most. And he ordered it so intermittantly at one point, I subscribed. What kind of non-hobby stores? We talking bookstores like Waldenbooks/Barnes & Noble? Gamestop? Supermarkets?
I read the articles in Undefeated #10. It looks really promising. Can you give a little moredetail on your experience, though? What was the "learning curve" like? Are your Uncle, cousin, yourself and your brother really good at picking up on new games? Is it "newbie" friendly? (I mean I game a lot. I know I can pick it up at a good pace. What about a person whose only other gaming experience is Monopoly?) Do you think the style/over-all design of the game might translate into other genres well? Like sci-fi?
Well, it's 21 JAN 2005. UNDEFEATED is going on "hiatus." I've gotten depressed over it. I love this mag and hope it survives. In re-reading this thread, though, and given the statements in the press release to the effect that sales of the mag were strong, but they were going to try to make it better, I'm worried UNDEFEATED will lose that "something" it has. Ya know what I mean? Even with the limited space of a print mag, they try to cram in as much depth (that sounds weird) into an article, no matter the topic. Other mags tend to give short-shrift to a lot. Heck, SCRYE and InQuest allot, like, a third of their space to friggin' price guides. That's content? Given this forum about minis games, I'm going to toss an idea out there: Two seperate mags. I am primarily interested (as a player and consumer)in miniatures games, collectible and non. And in strategy board games that even tangentially use miniatures. Is there a market for people like me? Who want coverage of Warhammer, WarMachine, HeroClix, MechWarrior, Crimson Skies, Axis & Allies, Fortress America, Star Wars Minitures, Pirates of the Spanish Main, Navia Dratp, HeroScape or -- heck -- Knightmare Chess? I want previews and reviews, sure. I definitely want strategy discussions on the latest games. But I also like stuff like "histories" or "bios" of a game or game style. (That PBeM article immediately springs to mind.) I like "... like a Pro." I like game designer interviews, not just related to "The Next Big Thing" but also about game design, and their approach to it. I like the Last Page. I like "competative articles" where two staffers pick a game and we follow along as they play. They can show mechanics/quirks of the game and of individual play styles. And with competition like SCRYE and InQuest devoting most of their space to CCGs (pretty much MtG, with passing articles on others) and Games Workshop devoting its mag to highlight its products, maybe there is room for UNDEFEATED: MINIATURES GAMING and a seperate UNDEFEATED: CCG. Maybe. Maybe?
Just read the news announcement about the hiatus. Crossing my fingers and hoping for a speedy, strong return of UNDEFEATED. :)
I really hope this isn't true. I mean I just renewed my subscription, and I just recieved issue #10 in the mailbox yesterday. And they seemed to have picked up more advertisers, and the content is better than ever.
Hello! Um, I haven't been to this site in a while (busy holiday season, both on the family and work fronts). I just wanted to say a couple of things. First, UNDEFEATED is still a great mag. I just recieved issue #10 in my mail box yesterday. I'm definitely going to buy HeroScape and Risk 2210 A.D. because of the coverage (plus, X-Mas is over now; I don't have to feel guilty buying for myself now :P ). The coverage on War of the Ring really piqued my interest. Loved reading the preview of Conquest of the Empire. Secondly, Thanks to Piazo on a couple of things.
I really, really hope the rumors that UNDEFEATED is taking a hiatus are just that, rumors. I love this mag.
Cool! I'm popping onto this site just about every day now anyway. Might as well do some shopping. :)
Thanks, zeppelined! (And just to clarify, WizKids get together with Paizo to do this. I didn't try to presume that Paizo could just reprint a rules set that WK owns. I was just trying to make the point that such an item would be useful, and that in comparison to other publications out there, Paizo's UNDEFEATED team could really put out a quality rules magazine with "extras.")
Ok so let me get this straight.... who exactly is in the line up? i've seen the artwork ... spider-woman, spider-man, Cap, ironman, luke cage, wolverine ... but who are the other two guys? guy with the cape nad the guy with the kosh? Well, one guy is supposed to be The Sentry. From that MK mini-series they did a while back. I've mixed feelings about the Sentry. I mean, the whole zoroastrian twist (he's apparently in constant battle with his darkside/"evil twin") combined with the Superman-level powers and, well,.... Marvel doesn't really need another "Superman" like character. They haven't done too much with the ones they already have. (Hyperion, Captain Marvel, Gladiator.) I'm a huge Spidey fan. I don't mind him on the team, as long as it's not for long. But, Wolverine. *sigh* I am pretty tired of him myself. I've just never understood his popularity. And he's friggin' EVERYWHERE. For him, I agree with Hunter, that it's just a blatant way to guarantee some sort of sales for the title. Still, I hope it all produces a good read.
HeroScape. Heard a lot of great things about it. I go into Wal*Mart or Toys 'R' Us, and I always pick it up and just hold it. But, it's going to have to wait until AFTER Christmas. I'm only halfway done with shopping for my family, and I feel guilty enough I'm going to spend a chunk of change next week when picking up my case of Mutant Mayhem. But, soon.... Soon.... Yes, it will be mine.
Grey, it's feedback like this that really helps us shape Undefeated content. It also makes for great discussion here. Thanks for the gracious acknowledgement, sir! Just hope it bear's fruit! (AND, I hope it I'm not the only one who'd like to see this happen. None of the other messageboard lurkers have even commented a "yea" or "nay" to the overall concept. This doesn't bode well...)
grey_zealot Started out while playing a PC game, StarCraft. My favorite faction was the Protoss, whose basic infantry unit was the Zealot. They (the Protoss)were sort of a "conceptual hybrid" of your stereotypical "gray alien" and the Predator (from the movies), with a dash of "honorable warrior" Klingon. I like the ironic/oxymoronic way the name translated:
(But, I like that "Alien Gunfighter" name above, as well.)
I think it was Stan Lee who said "Every comic [book] is someone's first comic." Undefeated has introduced me to more games than are physically available in my area. Your question: "Where do people think the balance lies?" Wow, that's sticky. I desire depth in explanation, especially of a game that's new to me. But, if it gets too technical in repect to "jargon" specific to the game, I get lost. I hope this discussion continues.
Oh ho! Are you the guy who did the Professor X/SHIELD team article? If so, cool! I have yet to use that exact team; I used the article as a spring board, trying to come up with my own version for a strictly "villain" team. With MODOK coming out in Mutant Mayhem, I'll be revisiting it. (It's going to be tough, as I'd like to hit a tourney one more time, using MODOK for a Hydra-centered team. And all the Hydra/AIM agents are retired!! (LoL) I'll be stuck with MODOK, Dreadnoughts, and Hand Ninjas!) Your and Mr. Baker's comments are making me wonder if I can get a good Mind Control/Barrier/ProbCon team assembled.
This really is more a question about figures for Warhammer, WARMACHINE, WarGods, and so on. The figures come out at different times, but the stats are centrally located in sourcebooks. So, when the figure comes out, its stats are already common knowledge. Is there any value in reviewing something like that, when the only real new quality is the miniature itself? Hmmmm.... Well, then, since the stats appear in the source material and -- presumably -- on-line as well, maybe a different VENUE for the review is required. A special section of the Undefeated portion of this site. When you announce the debut in the print magazine, and give an overall review of a new release, or one of your strategy articles focusing on that game, play up any "reviews" of specific pieces for the game as being available on this website. That way, you don't tie up any expensive print-space, you quite possibly generate more traffic to this site, and you still provide focused, informative "brainfood" for all parties interested in that game/brand/product. Is that viable?
Main Pitch.
With Paizo having such a great track record with covering games in depth, they’d be perfect for this type of project. Being a HeroClix addict (Man, I managed to stave off the “collectible gaming bug" for a decade before this damn game came along!), the Team building strategy articles in Undefeated have been some of the best out there. Issue #9’s has been the best yet in terms of layout, too; pictures of the figs, full-dial spoilers, pros/cons of each piece, diagram of a specific tactic, informative sidebars… What WizKids needs to publish, at least once a year (IMHO) is a magazine-sized HC rulebook. The “rules pamphlets” that come in the starter sets are hamstringed by limited space that forces some bad wordings of rules in order to conserve space. Between the rulebook’s format, the frequent introduction of new game mechanics, and tournament experience, WizKids ends up putting out a dozen FAQ updates a year. Yes, the WK rulebooks are available on-line. Yes, so are the FAQs. But, a magazine published once a year would still be a great resource. It needs to be full color. Show "demonstration examples" out of the Starter Sets "rules pamphlet" from each set. They'd have plenty of space to clearly word everything. No parsing language in order to conserve print-space that results in FAQ after FAQ in order to clarify the language. A magazine size would be perfect to “integrate” the rulebook with the FAQ. I’m after detail here. Detailed rules explanations. Detailed, graphic examples that aren’t thumbnail-sized. Undefeated is perfect for this. The PAC info needs to be in there, too. Fully detailed. Frequency and incentives to purchase.
Wizard Entertainment has apparently had so much success with “exclusive” HC mail-away offers (in Wizard and in InQuest) that Comic Book Buyer’s Guide and Scrye are trying to get in on the action with their own. Undefeated would need this. (And, it might be wise to actually package something special WITH the mag, though. Like an exclusive map, that Paizo might’ve had a hand in designing. *hint, hint* J The exclusive clix offer would just be a coupon.) It would be neat to see, say, single page columns with commentary on the HC scene as seen buy WK designers (a la Issue #2 of Undefeated that had a piece by a certain WK executive). And think of the advertising space, to push not only HC but also other WK products. (The mag should still focus its content on HC. Too much diversity would lead to not enough of in-depth HC material.) Another thing to consider: The dial spoilers. Yes, full stats are available on-line at sites like the WizKids site, or at HCRealms, or you can download the Battle Planner program (which I found out about in Undefeated, and purchased as a result), but there’s something about having them tangibly in your hands, in print. So, pad this idea out. For starters, publish the spoilers for the retired Infinity Challenge set. Then, have a few one-page articles spring-board from that, topics on how the game has developed, why retirement was necessary, “review” of the set as a whole (in the context of what it was like when it was released, and how it holds up today), etc. Like with Undefeated #8 get commentary from WK designers. Since a new rulebook might be needed once a year (as the main pitch states) or warrant two to four a year, set spoilers, strategy articles and design philosophizing add some “collectibility” to the mag itself. Comparisons to other magazines.
InQuest vs. Undefeated vs. Scrye InQuest: They occasionally have some fun HC related stuff. Visually, the mag is a gas! (No surprise, considering they are related to Wizard Magazine.) Love the articles they've done showing off various custom figs. They used to have scenario ideas pulled directly from the comics. (Specifying the issue of the comic it was pulled from, suggested team construction, and special scenario rules.) BUT, they are still all about Magic: the Gathering and the massive Price Guide of each issue. (The price guide itself chews up a lot of space each issue.) And the "visual HeroClix guides" they've been doing don't show the whole dial at once. That's annoying. Scrye: I used to pick this up a lot. Some great articles on general HC strategy, and some good scenarios. The "stat spoilers" they used to publish for each set was cool, but in a tiny type. (And they had coverage of board games and miniatures game I'd never heard of, when I needed a "break" from HC with a small, self-contained and non-collectible gaming.) Undefeated: This mag has had some great HC articles. So good I actually subscribed to it. They also cover TCGs, other miniatures games and board games. Their Team Strategy articles are great, and back in issue #1, they published all the dials for DC Cosmic Justice. The people who do Dragon Magazine do the mag. And to a former D&D player like me, it's important. (The quality and depth of strategy/tactical discussion.) And they are ulikely to fill half the damn mag up with a Price Guide!! (I can't stand spending the money on Scrye and InQuest for those price guides!) *whew* O.K., I'll just end my little rant here.
O.K., well that last post was way back in September, and it's now mid-November. I buy trade paperbacks anymore. I'm really hoping the "Avengers Disassembled" arc hits the trades soon. I just snagged the Marvel Knights Spider-Man trade, collecting the first 4 issues of that series. It starts rocking right off the bat. And it actually has a feeling of hope in its grittiness. That Spidey, even when beaten down, can do the right thing and suffer through it and come out on top. (Unlike Millar's run on The Authority and the "down" feel of Ultimates. I like grittiness, as long as I don't end up with the feeling that "it's such an oppressive world out there, and human nature being what it is things will never get better." Know what I mean? I love that it seems like Marvel is not only doing more intense "thillers", but that they are weaning off of the "magic" crutch and going more sci-fi spliced with "ripped from the headlines" twists. Bendis with The Pulse and Daredevil. Millar with Ultimates and now Spidey. JMS on Spidey. Now Brubaker of "Gotham Central" will be doing Captain America! Ahhhh, yeeessss... It just can't hit the trades soon enough!
Well,.... I lack any sort of artistic talent. I haven't tried to paint a miniature since 1989. I still have it, and it reminds me of why I don't do that! (LoL) I like reading "Like a Pro" because they are some great articles. But, maybe some terrain-building articles, for people with no talent, and maybe even less time? For example, what's out there that can be easily modified? The Dwarven Forge stuff looks great, but a little expensive. (I'm saving up for the sci-fi stuff, myself.) That Heroscape game looks invaluable. Play it as intended, or co-opt the terrain for my other minis games. I'd like to see an article for guidelines on taking 2D based mini games into multi-elevation 3D. (I'm primarily a HeroClix player. 3D clix, some 3D objects, but still on a 2D, flat map...) At any rate, the "Like a Pro" articles with tips from people who've won competitions have been stimulating. Maybe sidebars (to the body of the article focusing on the painting tips) highlighting a particular model they've done, and what competitions it's won? Just throwing those out there....
Sorry. Tradable minis are covered already, because they're released in large sets. I'm talking about the small, sporadic blister and box releases for hobby miniatures games, such as Warhammer 40,000, WARMACHINE, Confrontation, and the like. O.K., after re-reading the thread, I'm a little confused. Can you give some examples of "the small, sporadic blister and box releases for hobby miniatures games" besides the trademark? I mean, your "wargames" article a issue or so ago that had several different Warhammer 40K armies was a good read. It showed the differences in play style for the different faction (?? Is that the right phrase?) like the Tau, and those "Aliens" looking Gene-stealers, etc. Are those the kind of reviews you mean? Or, are you talking about like the Warmachine article you guys did, where you scrutinized several Warcasters, and made recommendations about building up an army around them? That's not too much different from "team oriented" strategy articles. (My opinion.) It not only shows baldly a unit's abilities/powers, but gives context on best use within a team, and gives hint on how to react to (or prepare for) specific threats to the character.
I play mostly at home, but even when I hit one or two of my local venues to play in a tournament, they both have a house rule specifically dealing with this problem. The general thought is "Only Stealthed (Invisible) characters should benefit from Stealth." They assume Stealth isn't just Concealment, it's also active dodging, or using some other method of "disrupting" your opponent's targeting capability. So, a character in Stealth on the Gumball machine adds an additional +1 Hindering terrain penalty. You can't hit the Stealthed character (as per the description) and what ever he/she is doing is throwing off taking an effective shot at those behind. I finally recieved my copy yesterday of issue #9. I love the mag as a whole, and love the facelift. And I loved the layout of the HC Team article. I like seeing the dials, I like the explanations of why the character made the team. The article also made me realize I don't see all that much use of Barrier at the local venues. My cousin and I don't use it a lot. I don't see Smoke Cloud used all that much either. (Except with Stealth characters like Mysterio or any Batman Ally team member.) Is there room in Undefeated to do more "general" HC strategy articles, ones that might focus on Powers/Abilities not often seen? Back to Barrier, I wonder how a Barrier centered team might look. Should it focus on a close-combat bruiser? Or be a bunch of range-shooters? Moving in and out from behind Barriers? Would such a team be flexible enough to stand up to an HSS-focused team? What about these anti-Stealth Ultimates teams that are the team du jour? Anyway, I liked #9's article. Hope to see more of it in the future. :)
As primarily a HeroClix player, I get the most out of Team Strategy articles. You sort of provide "mini-reviews" of individual pieces during the explanations of why which clix made the team. And articles like the one in issue #4 (?? I think) in which you did one team for each "label" (DC, Marvel, & Indy) was really helpful. Plus the explanation of the "Practical Accelerator" tactic, with the graphics was very welcome. |
