Kthulhu wrote:
godzillaboy6 wrote:
I know it was mostly made that way so that a demon lord that was originally a great old one himself (according to Lovecraft lore)....
He shares the same alignment as both factions.
Many of the Great Old ones seek either the utter destruction/insanity of the human and all live and originate from deep within the void between the planes.
I wanted to correct a few things here. Lovecraft's Dagon isn't really one of his Great Old Ones, for a couple of different reasons. First off is that in the story where he first used that term, "Great Old Ones" seems to simply be a reference to Cthulhu's race, not the eclectic grouping of demi-god level entities. Secondly, Dagon isn't usually look at as being on that same level...he's a very old, very large, very powerful Deep One...nothing more, nothing less. So, in Pathfinder terms, I would probably use a skum, slap on a size increase to Colossal, maybe the paragon template from v3.5, and throw some cleric of Cthulhu levels onto him.
Secondly, the Great Old Ones and Outer Gods don't have a set alignment that they all follow. Some are Chaotic Evil (although I disagree with the Paizo take on some of those that are stated as CE), they can also range to Chaotic Neutral or Neutral.
Finally, with the exception of Nyarlathotep, most of the Great Old Ones and Outer Gods don't care about the destruction and insanity that their presence brings to humans. Humans (and elves, dwarves, etc) are less than nothing to them. And in Pathfinder, most of these entities don't come from the void between the planes, they come from the Prime Material.
Before I begin, I would just like to say that you made some good points. However, here are some counter-arguments:
Although Dagon may not be as strong as Cthulhu, I have found many sources that label Dagon as strong as many of the Great Old Ones. Along with that, Dagon already has stats in the Fourth Bestiary of Pathfinder.
On that note: I would like to discuss the dispute of whether the the Great Old ones are, in fact, Chaotic Evil. Although, it isn't all of them, it is majority. However, since Lovecraft himself didn't write it, and because of the way Pathfinder and other role play games are set up, it could be changed.
Although you are right that each Old One has their own individual goals, they still harbor the Apocalypse, which still leads to the destruction and insanity of the mortal races.
Finally, for the Lovecraft lore versus the Pathfinder lore, the discussion is over the interpretation from the Pathfinder company and community. Although Lovecraft was the creator of the The Great Old Ones and all associated mythos, it is still what is being discussed. For example: if this was Lovecraft's lore, Cthulhu would be impossible to kill. However, because it is Pathfinder lore and the such, Cthulhu is a cr 30 that is able to killed under the proper conditions. Also, arguing Lovecraft's true intention and what he would want for the Pathfinder versions of his beasties is a hard argument due to the fact that H.P. Lovecraft isn't alive anymore.
Even though I could continue pushing for my points, I actually found that there was a flaw in my thesis. The one detail I relied on that connected Qlippoths to the Great Old Ones, didn't work. Due to a misunderstanding in a phrase in Bestiary 4's description of Dagon, it hinted more toward the Qlippoth hating him rather than siding with him.
The main reasons though that people are trying to connect the two, are simply (to my understanding) that the Qlippoths lack a God that they are connected to, and that the Great Old Ones lack an outsider race that is just for them. Although there are many outsider races that would serve the Lovecraftian demigods, They have other masters to serve that are more closely associated with them. If more information was given on Qlippoth and their possible masters, and more information on the minions of the Great Old Ones (which may be happening with the companion book "Occult Mysteries")then we could see if they are truly connected or not.
